Assassin's presence, fury, quickness. A case for our lost ferocity.

[Krillaklise.9461]

I can full heartily agree with the idea of a baseline increase to Crit and stepping away from things like banners and spotter and assassin's presence being the reason to bring a class. Truely.

I'd like to point out however, spotter was equivelant to 4.76% Crit chance. 25% on fury is spot on. However. Roiling mists going from doubling fury (we'd get 50% Crit chance) is now reduced to a flat 20% so. For taking roiling mists we get 45%. A 5% bump. That was the goal correct? 

When I look to rangers vicious quarry, being buffed to 15% bonus Crit chance during fury, this is now 40%. Previously with spotter and this trait, it was 34.76% they've gained 5.24% from both changes AND the trait gives +250 ferocity.

Meanwhile, technically, roiling most is nerfed, and we loose the 150 ferocity from assassin's presence to boot? 

Taking another peak into things, soul beast gets an innate 15% damage bonus during fury to our 7%, and they have access to remorseless (opening strike on fury gain, auto Crit and 25% damage) and both classes have ample sources of fury already. We have no incentive now to run assassin's presence, since, we ran it for the ferocity.

I'm not saying in anyway the ranger trait needs to be changed here, just it's the most obvious example of a bit of a miss for revenants compared to other classes use of the same kind of traits, this is a nerf, a flat nerf.  When we look at most classes we can find similar examples of perks to a particular boon ALONG with increased Crit chance, to be utterly fair if we simply wanted to easily hit Crit cap, we'd all use renegade.

Quickness. Oh quickness. We love quickness, but, it's a bit skewed here isn't it? Draconic echo? Yes! Perfect! It makes sense thematically, I see what you did here, and I love you for it!  But... We've increased the cooldowns on consume skills... And buffed the damage? We have flat damage modifiers, what we don't have is shareable quickness.... Even as is currently. 1.5 seconds? And increased cooldowns? What was even the point ? Look at firebrand. Look. At. It.

So many applications of 3+ second quickness, plus the rest of the utility kit, plus 250 vitality, healing, and condi under quickness, the capacity to take traits to renew justice and just spam F1 for mass amounts of quickness during a rotation, and at 3 seconds, with boon duration, it adds up fast.  

 

But 1.5 seconds? If we cripple ourselves for 100% boon duration, we match MOST quickness sharing skills from other classes baseline? With bigger gaps between application, and no real perk to bothering to do so?

Simply throwing it out there that frankly, we'd like our ferocity back. And a way to share quickness reasonably, even just meeting us in the middle, up consume skills fine, maybe meet us halfway with the cooldowns, at the very least, bare minimum, up the quickness length? 

Another thing... Fury from assassin presence. We have so much fury. We're dripping in fury. Most classes are dripping in fury at this point.  Why not rework assassin's presence to something like a flat increase to ferocity?

OR. 2 birds, one stone.

Assassin's presence, share quickness in a radius after X thing, gain ferocity while under the effects of quickness. ?

[Krillaklise.9461]

Secondary thoughts. We could tweak assassin's presence to give ferocity while under the effects of fury. And swap around shiro's quickness on weapon swap or legend swap to shared quickness on legend swap? 

Draconic echo could very well share either quickness or barrier... We lack barrier as a support function.

[ArthurDent.9538]

Just take notoriety as the selfish power dps trait from now on as power vs ferocity ultimately doesn't matter its just more damage and more personal damage than ap ever was. Make no mistake Rev not getting an extra 5% crit modifier in traits along with just generally ignoring how bad power rev dps is was certainly a major disappointment.  But ap becoming a dead trait is no big deal because notoriety is a decent damage increasing replacement.

[Krillaklise.9461]

30 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Just take notoriety as the selfish power dps trait from now on as power vs ferocity ultimately doesn't matter its just more damage and more personal damage than ap ever was. Make no mistake Rev not getting an extra 5% crit modifier in traits along with just generally ignoring how bad power rev dps is was certainly a major disappointment.  But ap becoming a dead trait is no big deal because notoriety is a decent damage increasing replacement.

This is true. I've been running around since posting just messing with the quickness, it's good actually, granted, not nearly the kind of up time other classes can produce.

I can agree with everything you said here, I do wish though something would happen with assassin's presence that wasn't fury.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

I can full heartily agree with the idea of a baseline increase to Crit and stepping away from things like banners and spotter and assassin's presence being the reason to bring a class. Truely.

I'd like to point out however, spotter was equivelant to 4.76% Crit chance. 25% on fury is spot on. However. Roiling mists going from doubling fury (we'd get 50% Crit chance) is now reduced to a flat 20% so. For taking roiling mists we get 45%. A 5% bump. That was the goal correct? 

When I look to rangers vicious quarry, being buffed to 15% bonus Crit chance during fury, this is now 40%. Previously with spotter and this trait, it was 34.76% they've gained 5.24% from both changes AND the trait gives +250 ferocity.

Meanwhile, technically, roiling most is nerfed, and we loose the 150 ferocity from assassin's presence to boot? 

Taking another peak into things, soul beast gets an innate 15% damage bonus during fury to our 7%, and they have access to remorseless (opening strike on fury gain, auto Crit and 25% damage) and both classes have ample sources of fury already. We have no incentive now to run assassin's presence, since, we ran it for the ferocity.

I'm not saying in anyway the ranger trait needs to be changed here, just it's the most obvious example of a bit of a miss for revenants compared to other classes use of the same kind of traits, this is a nerf, a flat nerf.  When we look at most classes we can find similar examples of perks to a particular boon ALONG with increased Crit chance, to be utterly fair if we simply wanted to easily hit Crit cap, we'd all use renegade.

Quickness. Oh quickness. We love quickness, but, it's a bit skewed here isn't it? Draconic echo? Yes! Perfect! It makes sense thematically, I see what you did here, and I love you for it!  But... We've increased the cooldowns on consume skills... And buffed the damage? We have flat damage modifiers, what we don't have is shareable quickness.... Even as is currently. 1.5 seconds? And increased cooldowns? What was even the point ? Look at firebrand. Look. At. It.

So many applications of 3+ second quickness, plus the rest of the utility kit, plus 250 vitality, healing, and condi under quickness, the capacity to take traits to renew justice and just spam F1 for mass amounts of quickness during a rotation, and at 3 seconds, with boon duration, it adds up fast.  

 

But 1.5 seconds? If we cripple ourselves for 100% boon duration, we match MOST quickness sharing skills from other classes baseline? With bigger gaps between application, and no real perk to bothering to do so?

Simply throwing it out there that frankly, we'd like our ferocity back. And a way to share quickness reasonably, even just meeting us in the middle, up consume skills fine, maybe meet us halfway with the cooldowns, at the very least, bare minimum, up the quickness length? 

Another thing... Fury from assassin presence. We have so much fury. We're dripping in fury. Most classes are dripping in fury at this point.  Why not rework assassin's presence to something like a flat increase to ferocity?

OR. 2 birds, one stone.

Assassin's presence, share quickness in a radius after X thing, gain ferocity while under the effects of quickness. ?

Like Arthur said, Notoriety is actually slightly better than AP anyway so for personal dps it's fine.

However, the biggest takeaway for me from this patch is that the 1.5s quickness duration is abysmal and the CD increases are even worse. The base duration needs to be bare minimum 2s (I'd say preferably 3 honestly) and then more importantly they need to either up the damage or make QuickHeal Herald an actually decent build (it's not). The class is extremely limited compared to FB and still even limited when compared to Chrono or other options as well. It's absurd and it's so very readily apparent that no one who made these changes actually understands Herald, plays it, or cares. Like they could have given it perma quickness just with Draconic Echo in Berserker gear, no other changes made, and it still would be on the low end of hybrid dps quickness supports.  That's how bad Herald is at DPS just by itself before factoring in BD gear.

I'm so insanely disappointed with Anet right now because of this (and the other changes), but I'm absolutely not surprised either. Herald always gets some sort of nerf whenever it's given something new, despite the fact it's been bottom of the barrel alongside Spellbreaker in PvE for years upon years.

Edited June 29, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Krillaklise.9461]

10 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Like Arthur said, Notoriety is actually slightly better than AP anyway so for personal dps it's fine.

However, the biggest takeaway for me from this patch is that the 1.5s quickness duration is abysmal and the CD increases are even worse. The base duration needs to be bare minimum 2s (I'd say preferably 3 honestly) and then more importantly they need to either up the damage or make QuickHeal Herald an actually decent build (it's not). The class is extremely limited compared to FB and still even limited when compared to Chrono or other options as well. It's absurd and it's so very readily apparent that no one who made these changes actually understands Herald, plays it, or cares. Like they could have given it perma quickness just with Draconic Echo in Berserker gear, no other changes made, and it still would be on the low end of hybrid dps quickness supports.  That's how bad Herald is at DPS just by itself before factoring in BD gear.

I'm so insanely disappointed with Anet right now because of this (and the other changes), but I'm absolutely not surprised either. Herald always gets some sort of nerf whenever it's given something new, despite the fact it's been bottom of the barrel alongside Spellbreaker in PvE for years upon years.

Well sure. I think my general point here is that when we look at the skrimishibg trait line for rangers, the +250 ferocity from vicious quarry is a bit over 16% Crit damage and 40% Crit chance, along side an automatic 10% flat damage bonus, we can assume Crit capping, so a general 26% damage increase. Plus they have better access to quickness, with a better natural up time in the same line.

Meanwhile Rev is looking at inconsistent, nearly useless quickness in herald, at the cost of damage multipliers, having to take both invocation and devastation, for some might, 20% damage buffs, and 45% Crit, and 7% damage increase Via fury. 

Essentially. Skirmishing alone does a better job in a single trait line than invocation, devastation, and herald. 

Neverminding damage increases, quickness and fury up time, and increased stats withen soulbeast, the new buff sharing of spirits, etc.

 

We're really legitimately looking at taking multiple trees in order to do what other classes can do in 1. Essentially I'm saying we're like a 3rd as effective trait wise?

 

[Creativity.3816]

Yo real question which clown balancing the game thought removing permanent crit damage for temporary crit chance was a sound decision. Like lmfao. Can we change that person's employment status

[Tulkas.2576]

I’m just glad I don’t look like a selfish kitten for always choosing notoriety anymore. 

[Krillaklise.9461]

16 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Like Arthur said, Notoriety is actually slightly better than AP anyway so for personal dps it's fine.

However, the biggest takeaway for me from this patch is that the 1.5s quickness duration is abysmal and the CD increases are even worse. The base duration needs to be bare minimum 2s (I'd say preferably 3 honestly) and then more importantly they need to either up the damage or make QuickHeal Herald an actually decent build (it's not). The class is extremely limited compared to FB and still even limited when compared to Chrono or other options as well. It's absurd and it's so very readily apparent that no one who made these changes actually understands Herald, plays it, or cares. Like they could have given it perma quickness just with Draconic Echo in Berserker gear, no other changes made, and it still would be on the low end of hybrid dps quickness supports.  That's how bad Herald is at DPS just by itself before factoring in BD gear.

I'm so insanely disappointed with Anet right now because of this (and the other changes), but I'm absolutely not surprised either. Herald always gets some sort of nerf whenever it's given something new, despite the fact it's been bottom of the barrel alongside Spellbreaker in PvE for years

I'm not convinced what I said came across correctly.  

Look at ranger's skirmishing line changes and inherent traits. It's capable of perma quickness uptime with some help or boon duration. In a minor trait.

Outside of that just that 1 trait line offers rangers fury buffs (which they have withen soulbeast as well) which total up to 40% Crit chance, 26% increased damage. And still have traits left over (this is factoring in that ferocity in vicious quarry) and STILL have 2 trait lines they get to fill.

 

We on the other hand have to take invocation and devastation for roiling mists / the 20% conditional in devastation. And we end up with 27% damage increase and ,45% Crit. BUT. We use twice as many skill trees to do that. Ranger does almost exactly the same in 1 tree what we do in 2. And tbattree happens to have better quickness than our new herald quickness to boot. 

 

So technically. A ranger with on skirmishing trait line. Is close to the same % boost and better quickness than a rev running herald / invo / devastation.

 

Then they still get boosted damage % and fury buffs in places like soulbeast where again they have access to quickness, and be edit from it as well, annnnd most of those trait line have some sustain option which outpace ours as well.

 

This isn't about loosing a bit here or there, it's straight up that frankly, invo and devastation could be rolled into 1 skill tree. And STILL don't compete with other classes trees.

Loosing the 150 ferocity was a huge hit really considering how hard we have to scrape to match power DPs elsewhere. We keep saying might gen replaces it. It doesn't. Not in groups where you'll likely have 25 might constantly regardless of what your doing.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

35 minutes ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

I'm not convinced what I said came across correctly.  

Look at ranger's skirmishing line changes and inherent traits. It's capable of perma quickness uptime with some help or boon duration. In a minor trait.

Outside of that just that 1 trait line offers rangers fury buffs (which they have withen soulbeast as well) which total up to 40% Crit chance, 26% increased damage. And still have traits left over (this is factoring in that ferocity in vicious quarry) and STILL have 2 trait lines they get to fill.

 

We on the other hand have to take invocation and devastation for roiling mists / the 20% conditional in devastation. And we end up with 27% damage increase and ,45% Crit. BUT. We use twice as many skill trees to do that. Ranger does almost exactly the same in 1 tree what we do in 2. And tbattree happens to have better quickness than our new herald quickness to boot. 

 

So technically. A ranger with on skirmishing trait line. Is close to the same % boost and better quickness than a rev running herald / invo / devastation.

 

Then they still get boosted damage % and fury buffs in places like soulbeast where again they have access to quickness, and be edit from it as well, annnnd most of those trait line have some sustain option which outpace ours as well.

 

This isn't about loosing a bit here or there, it's straight up that frankly, invo and devastation could be rolled into 1 skill tree. And STILL don't compete with other classes trees.

While I agree there should be parity between classes and traitlines generally, I'm not sure Ranger is the best example. The amount of buffs that Ranger has and still requires mega-buffs from Soulbeast to be viable shows that Core Ranger is pathetic in terms of power damage to begin with (hence why it has so many buffs in its traits). Just look at Untamed, it's essentially Core Ranger+ and is pathetic in terms of power dps despite having all of these buffs you're talking about. Soulbeast only functions because of all the "merged" bonuses they had to shoehorn in to make it work.

 

38 minutes ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

Loosing the 150 ferocity was a huge hit really considering how hard we have to scrape to match power DPs elsewhere. We keep saying might gen replaces it. It doesn't. Not in groups where you'll likely have 25 might constantly regardless of what your doing.

I think maybe there's some confusion here for you about what Notoriety does exactly and WHY people are saying it doesn't matter that we lost AP since we still have Notoriety. Notoriety ISN'T just personal might generation (though that is part of it). It also increases the effectiveness of Might by an extra 10 power per might stack.

The only reason AP was better before was that it gave 150 Ferocity to 5 people (so 750 Ferocity group wide), otherwise it was a slight personal dps loss. Notoriety has always been the better choice for personal dps by a margin since it grants the user an extra 250 power. 

[Krillaklise.9461]

50 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

While I agree there should be parity between classes and traitlines generally, I'm not sure Ranger is the best example. The amount of buffs that Ranger has and still requires mega-buffs from Soulbeast to be viable shows that Core Ranger is pathetic in terms of power damage to begin with (hence why it has so many buffs in its traits). Just look at Untamed, it's essentially Core Ranger+ and is pathetic in terms of power dps despite having all of these buffs you're talking about. Soulbeast only functions because of all the "merged" bonuses they had to shoehorn in to make it work.

 

I think maybe there's some confusion here for you about what Notoriety does exactly and WHY people are saying it doesn't matter that we lost AP since we still have Notoriety. Notoriety ISN'T just personal might generation (though that is part of it). It also increases the effectiveness of Might by an extra 10 power per might stack.

The only reason AP was better before was that it gave 150 Ferocity to 5 people (so 750 Ferocity group wide), otherwise it was a slight personal dps loss. Notoriety has always been the better choice for personal dps by a margin since it grants the user an extra 250 power. 

Right; full stack of might is 1000 power rather than 750. Well and good. Provided we don't care about the condition damage.

Ranger likely isn't the best example, that particular trait line IS a good example however; it's not just loosing Crit damage. However. We are now the ONLY class to not have a ferocity trait at all. Most other classes have + damage with X boon or + stats with X boon. We don't really at all unless we look at the 7% while under fury that could just have been part of roiling mists.

And yes,I will note we have easy conditional damage multipliers. I just think it could be stream lined better, less broken, and on par with traits of other classes.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Krillaklise.9461

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

19 hours ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

I can full heartily agree with the idea of a baseline increase to Crit and stepping away from things like banners and spotter and assassin's presence being the reason to bring a class. Truely.

I'd like to point out however, spotter was equivelant to 4.76% Crit chance. 25% on fury is spot on. However. Roiling mists going from doubling fury (we'd get 50% Crit chance) is now reduced to a flat 20% so. For taking roiling mists we get 45%. A 5% bump. That was the goal correct? 

When I look to rangers vicious quarry, being buffed to 15% bonus Crit chance during fury, this is now 40%. Previously with spotter and this trait, it was 34.76% they've gained 5.24% from both changes AND the trait gives +250 ferocity.

Meanwhile, technically, roiling most is nerfed, and we loose the 150 ferocity from assassin's presence to boot? 

Taking another peak into things, soul beast gets an innate 15% damage bonus during fury to our 7%, and they have access to remorseless (opening strike on fury gain, auto Crit and 25% damage) and both classes have ample sources of fury already. We have no incentive now to run assassin's presence, since, we ran it for the ferocity.

I'm not saying in anyway the ranger trait needs to be changed here, just it's the most obvious example of a bit of a miss for revenants compared to other classes use of the same kind of traits, this is a nerf, a flat nerf.  When we look at most classes we can find similar examples of perks to a particular boon ALONG with increased Crit chance, to be utterly fair if we simply wanted to easily hit Crit cap, we'd all use renegade.

Quickness. Oh quickness. We love quickness, but, it's a bit skewed here isn't it? Draconic echo? Yes! Perfect! It makes sense thematically, I see what you did here, and I love you for it!  But... We've increased the cooldowns on consume skills... And buffed the damage? We have flat damage modifiers, what we don't have is shareable quickness.... Even as is currently. 1.5 seconds? And increased cooldowns? What was even the point ? Look at firebrand. Look. At. It.

So many applications of 3+ second quickness, plus the rest of the utility kit, plus 250 vitality, healing, and condi under quickness, the capacity to take traits to renew justice and just spam F1 for mass amounts of quickness during a rotation, and at 3 seconds, with boon duration, it adds up fast.  

 

But 1.5 seconds? If we cripple ourselves for 100% boon duration, we match MOST quickness sharing skills from other classes baseline? With bigger gaps between application, and no real perk to bothering to do so?

Simply throwing it out there that frankly, we'd like our ferocity back. And a way to share quickness reasonably, even just meeting us in the middle, up consume skills fine, maybe meet us halfway with the cooldowns, at the very least, bare minimum, up the quickness length? 

Another thing... Fury from assassin presence. We have so much fury. We're dripping in fury. Most classes are dripping in fury at this point.  Why not rework assassin's presence to something like a flat increase to ferocity?

OR. 2 birds, one stone.

Assassin's presence, share quickness in a radius after X thing, gain ferocity while under the effects of quickness. ?

The ranger comparison here is pretty missed.
If you want to talk balance you must compare full professions, not parts of their kits taken out of context.
Yes ranger gets more ferocity for example, but herald has super easy access to boonshare without totally killing his own damage.
Meanwhile a ranger has to take huge hits to his personal dps to roll out his support (Nature Magic + spirits in utilities).

As for quickness it looks fairly balanced to me, save the weird 360 application radius. It should be 600 just like all the rest. The dreaded duration - 1.5s times 6 facets = 9s uptime baseline. Without factoring the facet of nature dragon's 20% boon duration in upkeep mode and 2 -3s all boon duration extension when consuming it.

Edited June 29, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Krillaklise.9461]

3 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

The ranger comparison here is pretty missed.
If you want to talk balance you must compare full professions, not parts of their kits taken out of context.
Yes ranger gets more ferocity for example, but herald has super easy access to boonshare without totally killing his own damage.
Meanwhile a ranger has to take huge hits to his personal dps to roll out his support (Nature Magic + spirits in utilities).

As for quickness it looks fairly balanced to me, save the weird 360 application radius. It should be 600 just like all the rest. As for the dreaded duration - 1.5s times 6facets = 9s uptime baseline. Without factoring the facet of nature dragon's 20 boon duration in upkeep mode and 2 -3s all boon duration extension when consuming it.

Yes the more I talk about this, the more I'm thinking perhaps the ferocity loss thing isn't as big of a deal as my bias tells me it is. 

I very much concede that perhaps the balance here is helping classes with a lower end throughput, but I do think our modifiers could be more streamlined like other classes' trait lines. 

The quickness as a personal DPs is great. I've been enjoying it. If however we want to compare it as a shared boon for uptime against things like firebrand, we very much have to do to much in comparison and still don't hit 100% uptime for a group without basically on CD facet consumption. 

Meanwhile, other classes that share quickness can do so for longer, sometimes passively, more effectively.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

6 hours ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

Yes the more I talk about this, the more I'm thinking perhaps the ferocity loss thing isn't as big of a deal as my bias tells me it is. 

 

The Ferocity loss from AP isn't a problem since we do have something we swap to (and actually gain more from), but you're actually completely well founded in your belief that Power Rev is underperforming. I'm unsure if this is a lack of parity in traitlines between other classes, or if it's just a numbers issue with weapon skills, but either way yes, you're correct that Power Rev as a whole is lacking (even Vindicator) especially now after the gamewide nerfs.

[Krillaklise.9461]

5 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The Ferocity loss from AP isn't a problem since we do have something we swap to (and actually gain more from), but you're actually completely well founded in your belief that Power Rev is underperforming. I'm unsure if this is a lack of parity in traitlines between other classes, or if it's just a numbers issue with weapon skills, but either way yes, you're correct that Power Rev as a whole is lacking (even Vindicator) especially now after the gamewide nerfs.

Yes we can safely agree with this 100%.

The thing I got hung up on, was looking at skirmishing having the capacity to essentially provide the same basic modifiers most of us do (or were) picking up from both Devo and invo. 

To be fair when we look at radiance for guardian, there is a very clear power damage route for the traits as well, 10% damage with resolution, 25% Crit chance with resolution, 10% Crit chance VS burning foes, 80 precision, and 80 power (one handed weapons only). So all in with fury and resolution, just with this single trait line a guardian with no precision at all has over 68% Crit chance. Since they have ample ways having 100% up time of both boons. And again, we're looking at a singular tree. Making it insanely easy to Crit cap. 

It makes sense to me that some of our traits could be sorted out in a more streamlined fashion. We have opposing traits for conditional 20% damage bonus based off target health percentage. Why double dip? Why not stream line and have a singular trait with a middle ground of the two?  Etc. Invo has a decent feel for fury, unlike other classes though we do not have a +250 stat with a buff, or any traits at all with ferocity. Seeings other classes now surpass our built in Crit chance % and have access to ferocity via traits (we are the only class without a ferocity trait), why can't roiling mist gives us ferocity while we have fury? Simple enough? 

As far as I'm concerned with Shiro it seems to me the basic idea here is choosing speed and evasion, life steal, or damage. But really, our life steals could be modified and streamlined, our damage multipliers are kinda broken in comparison to other classes, and the quickness here from Shiro so long as we take song of the mists rather than roiling mists exceeds what we can do as a Herald. Again, this isn't nearly stream lined at all as clearly as other tree's, it's fragmented. Then we have damage multipliers over in jalis, and in herald, and condi, and Rene, and invo. Whereas, alot of the time, classes ended up with singular clearly focused lines in specific trees that have a tendency to total up better, and are generally less conditional.

All things in, to be completely fair, we do still in fact dish out higher base power damage than some. And mallyx is far more broken than any other tree we have ( to be sure it's still my favorite).  (When I look at soulbeast healing from poison, and necro healing for a % of condi damage, scourge adding burns to torment, I have to wonder why we get resistance based stuff after the resistance rework, we have ample damage reduction elsewhere, invoking torment in kinda ok, but after the torment rune rework and yes I am aware it was turning out to be OP, why not allow a heal on torment that Anet can split differently per game mode to keep it in check and on par with the survivability garnered by other condi classes, gives us a decent way to cleanse with mallyx via traits, in line with other classes, and keep the defense to halo's and ventari? Even at that we DO have barrier, fragmented akwardly between halo's and ventari, why not stream line this to one trait line? )

As far as quickness from herald, if we wanted to compete with things like firebrand, we really either need longer duration, or some kinda if source for alacrity, or a look at sharing quickness differently. Speaking of, if the goal is changing things to shared boons to add support, why not have vindicator's Luzon boons be shared? It's quickness has a higher uptime, so can Shiro/ song of the mists/ sigils.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

20 hours ago, Creativity.3816 said:

Yo real question which clown balancing the game thought removing permanent crit damage for temporary crit chance was a sound decision. Like lmfao. Can we change that person's employment status

The same person who decided the end of EoD needed a wedding out of nowhere. 

[Krillaklise.9461]

Could very well be rather than outcry revenant needs to be put on par, perhaps we need to flip the perspective that frankly, things like firebrand are utterly broken. Quickness on heal, quickness equipping or stowing a virtue (coupled with renewing justice when something dies is already 6 seconds of quickness every singke death to group), 250 vit condi and healing while you have quickness, easy applications of slow, burn, stability, healing, aegis. Wonky interaction with hallowed ground since, stab grants quickness. It's just sillyboat loads of options for 100% uptime of quickness, with massive gains to stats, in a single tree, with busted interactions with older traits. Nothing can compete with it, at all for quickness.

Hell, gaurdians can 100% quickness uptime for no work at all via passives, garner higher Crit rates, mass amounts of increased stats, add quickness to an abundance of other boons, while sacraficing nearly nothing.

Meanwhile we're all looking at this as the comparison to out herald quickness, that simply can't be trained anywhere near as well.

I'll iterate again, we don't have a +250 stat trait, we don't have a + ferocity trait, and our 20% damage traits are opposed to each other and could very well be rolled into a 15% increase instead of 20% and outperform both traits on longer fights. 

[Buran.3796]

12 minutes ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

Could very well be rather than outcry revenant needs to be put on par, perhaps we need to flip the perspective that frankly, things like firebrand are utterly broken.

  If a class is fun and also works, why would be the other classes to aspirate to lower the bar and make everyone dull, grey and boring?  When making people leaving the game became the main goal of the developers?

  With EoD we have a ton of recycled animations, rehused or incongruent mechanics, strike missions capped by week and poorly rewarded, empty maps with low replayability, a fishing skill which almost no one asked for, plus a new mount which not only isn't great, but was also put behind some achievements which most of people just did chose to ditch.

   Yeah, instead of buffing forlorn professions just gut Guardian, Engineer and Necro...   That for sure will help with the population.

[Krillaklise.9461]

6 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  If a class is fun and also works, why would be the other classes to aspirate to lower the bar and make everyone dull, grey and boring?  When making people leaving the game became the main goal of the developers?

  With EoD we have a ton of recycled animations, rehused or incongruent mechanics, strike missions capped by week and poorly rewarded, empty maps with low replayability, a fishing skill which almost no one asked for, plus a new mount which not only isn't great, but was also put behind some achievements which most of people just did chose to ditch.

   Yeah, instead of buffing forlorn professions just gut Guardian, Engineer and Necro...   That for sure will help with the population.

Fair enough. On the one hand if thegoal actually WAS to make things more on par, then everything that just went on... Failed... Horribly. 

Frankly. There are a couple class specs which frankly can't be completed with at all, by anything else, by a large margin. So. Either those classes become the standard everything else is brought up to, or the few are brought down to be on par with the rest. It can't be some hodpodge side dodge smoke and mirrors. 

IF they really wanted herald to be a quickness support viable option. It HAS to compete with firebrand. It's night and day so far away from firebrand it's laughable. If what went on wothherald is the ideal balance they are shooting for, then either that has to change and herald needs to be buffed to shorten the gap, or firebrand has to be adjusted to what was just implied to be the streamline.

[Krillaklise.9461]

For the record. I main'd guardian from launch, straight through to PoF, switching to splitting my time between guard and rev. I stuck out alac regard through PoF and into EoD. I've reached 100% world completion on both. Finished each story, with both. And was ultimately put off by the idea of firebrand as it is. Every group wants one, Andy is pigeon holes into balancing encounters under the assumption we have 100% quickness, and likely 100% alacrity, both of which are essentially bad for the game as a whole because of that. 

My qualms with firebrand aren't that it should be nerfed, or that the fun needs to be removed (granted if you're a firebrand, the groups kicking around likely have one already), it's the quickness being 100% uptime at all, anywhere, that is an issue. If it was on thief, thief would be an issue. It's not firebrand, it's quickness, and the modern reliance on it in group content that's the issue. Spreading it out is a great idea, but ultimately there's no place for herald quickness at all when firebrand has 100% quickness uptime +. This did nothing to diversify the classes people are willing to party with at all. Groups will still forever want a quick firebrand, end of story. This makes herald having quickness as anything other than personal DPs utterly moot. It's pointless. 

Firebrand was never the issue. Quickness is the issue. Firebrand simply has to much of it, and for an entire group no less. This in and of itself makes the game harder to balance and coordinate, because groups WILL have quickness, so the ones that don't ultimately suffer. Firebrand is required. Point blank. And that is harmful as a whole.

IF Anet truely wants to stop such things and spread stuff out so that we start seeing better class variety, like they seem to be implying, then yes, firebrand HAS to be addressed. So does alacrity. 

It's far to late for them to reverse the fact that quickness and alacrity exist, so the options are returning far to Kuch stuff a d allowing quickness to be OP as all get out. Or spreading it out more evenly. Which this herald quickness has ultimately failed to do.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Krillaklise.9461
Typos

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

10 hours ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

For the record. I main'd guardian from launch, straight through to PoF, switching to splitting my time between guard and rev. I stuck out alac regard through PoF and into EoD. I've reached 100% world completion on both. Finished each story, with both. And was ultimately put off by the idea of firebrand as it is. Every group wants one, Andy is pigeon holes into balancing encounters under the assumption we have 100% quickness, and likely 100% alacrity, both of which are essentially bad for the game as a whole because of that. 

My qualms with firebrand aren't that it should be nerfed, or that the fun needs to be removed (granted if you're a firebrand, the groups kicking around likely have one already), it's the quickness being 100% uptime at all, anywhere, that is an issue. If it was on thief, thief would be an issue. It's not firebrand, it's quickness, and the modern reliance on it in group content that's the issue. Spreading it out is a great idea, but ultimately there's no place for herald quickness at all when firebrand has 100% quickness uptime +. This did nothing to diversify the classes people are willing to party with at all. Groups will still forever want a quick firebrand, end of story. This makes herald having quickness as anything other than personal DPs utterly moot. It's pointless. 

Firebrand was never the issue. Quickness is the issue. Firebrand simply has to much of it, and for an entire group no less. This in and of itself makes the game harder to balance and coordinate, because groups WILL have quickness, so the ones that don't ultimately suffer. Firebrand is required. Point blank. And that is harmful as a whole.

IF Anet truely wants to stop such things and spread stuff out so that we start seeing better class variety, like they seem to be implying, then yes, firebrand HAS to be addressed. So does alacrity. 

It's far to late for them to reverse the fact that quickness and alacrity exist, so the options are returning far to Kuch stuff a d allowing quickness to be OP as all get out. Or spreading it out more evenly. Which this herald quickness has ultimately failed to do.

They just need to make other options more viable. They don't need to remove quickness and alacrity (that has insanely far reaching balance concerns that will never get addressed properly, or it will take 5 years to do so, my bet is on the former) they just need to bring other options up to par and do so in a fun way. The worst thing that happened to make Firebrand viable imo was the complete decimation of Chrono (granted, Chrono was probably too strong, but they nerfed the kitten out of it and removed some of the fun to the point it got replaced and hasn't really been equivalent since, yes you can stilll use it but most don't). They need to make sure that going forward they don't gut FB to make room for other specs. The problem is just their constant, 5 year refusal to give other specs decent access to aegis/stab and good quickness/alac uptimes. Now that they did give those tools to another support (Mech) look what happened? Everyone is now playing Mech. They very much have the power to make powerful on par supports, but they either don't have the skill or the will to do so. Remember, this patch took them 4 months to put together! 4 months! That's insane given how much this balance patch utterly failed.

Edited July 1, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Krillaklise.9461]

9 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

They just need to make other options more viable. They don't need to remove quickness and alacrity (that has insanely far reaching balance concerns that will never get addressed properly, or it will take 5 years to do so, my bet is on the former) they just need to bring other options up to par and do so in a fun way. The worst thing that happened to make Firebrand viable imo was the complete decimation of Chrono (granted, Chrono was probably too strong, but they nerfed the kitten out of it and removed some of the fun to the point it got replaced and hasn't really been equivalent since, yes you can stilll use it but most don't). They need to make sure that going forward they don't gut FB to make room for other specs. The problem is just their constant, 5 year refusal to give other specs decent access to aegis/stab and good quickness/alac uptimes. Now that they did give those tools to another support (Mech) look what happened? Everyone is now playing Mech. They very much have the power to make powerful on par supports, but they either don't have the skill or the will to do so. Remember, this patch took them 4 months to put together! 4 months! That's insane given how much this balance patch utterly failed.

i'm unsure i was clear, and hyperbole sometimes fails via internet text, i didn't think they should gut firebrand, nor do i think they should remove quickness. 

my general point (loaded with hyperbole and sarcasm both) was that if they want to add boon based support, garnering how strong firebrand is, then that support will be unused unless it is as strong as firebrand. otherwise, people will continue to demand firebrand quickness. point blank.

thus, short of making things be equivalent to that level of support, which mech is capable of, so clearly they can, the only alternative if they want the community to embrace new supports, is to start nerfing older things, which frankly will cause mass outrage. 

in any event, the current hotfix to increase roiling mists by 5% and increasing herald quickness .5 second, essentially addresses most of what was discussed here rather quickly. does it put herald quickness on par with firebrand quickness, no, but what it does do is make it viable. there's potential now at least for us to take it ad run with it as a community tinker with builds and see what we can do viably in different modes of game play. Then, we keep the discussion open, the feed back live, and hope Anet continues to follow along.

[soul.9651]

34 minutes ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

i'm unsure i was clear, and hyperbole sometimes fails via internet text, i didn't think they should gut firebrand, nor do i think they should remove quickness. 

my general point (loaded with hyperbole and sarcasm both) was that if they want to add boon based support, garnering how strong firebrand is, then that support will be unused unless it is as strong as firebrand. otherwise, people will continue to demand firebrand quickness. point blank.

thus, short of making things be equivalent to that level of support, which mech is capable of, so clearly they can, the only alternative if they want the community to embrace new supports, is to start nerfing older things, which frankly will cause mass outrage. 

in any event, the current hotfix to increase roiling mists by 5% and increasing herald quickness .5 second, essentially addresses most of what was discussed here rather quickly. does it put herald quickness on par with firebrand quickness, no, but what it does do is make it viable. there's potential now at least for us to take it ad run with it as a community tinker with builds and see what we can do viably in different modes of game play. Then, we keep the discussion open, the feed back live, and hope Anet continues to follow along

I mean we probably need to wait and see but we still gonna be missing a huge chunk of dps to be closer to fb (for example there could exist pdps quickness herald which could be as strong as qfb rn or quick share cfb). Or if we would want to have hfb or heal mech herald version i feel like there are still a lot of work for balance team to create something like that out of herald/ventari. But all in all its nice to see some progress happening.

[Krillaklise.9461]

5 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

I mean we probably need to wait and see but we still gonna be missing a huge chunk of dps to be closer to fb (for example there could exist pdps quickness herald which could be as strong as qfb rn or quick share cfb). Or if we would want to have hfb or heal mech herald version i feel like there are still a lot of work for balance team to create something like that out of herald/ventari. But all in all its nice to see some progress happening.

I think we can all agree with this 100%

I am personally shocked at Anet's super fast HotFix for us. Gives me the impression they really did set out to listen. If it's a trend that continues we're very much on the right track I would think.

I did notice this morning though that in wvw my Herald quickness is still only 1.5 second. In full Cele gear, with facet of nature on. I'm not sure if that's a bug, or a balance thing?

[soul.9651]

1 hour ago, Krillaklise.9461 said:

 

I did notice this morning though that in wvw my Herald quickness is still only 1.5 second. In full Cele gear, with facet of nature on. I'm not sure if that's a bug, or a balance thing?

They said they made the change in pve only