If they nerf Rifle

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, LunieL.1738 said:

And only for you and only this time. Here is warrior doing up to 35k dps in real circumstances, not on dummy while mechanists are quite far behind. It's after latest patch, yep. Should warrior be nerfed as well? 

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Wow, look at the berserker doing 35k dps with just auto attacks!  This is how this works now, right? Since people in this thread here were spamming rotation videos also claiming that they are "auto attack only".

[stormemperor.3745]

It is a rifle not a machine gun. Enjoy epilepsy with aar 10 engineer raid meta.

[Nero.7369]

Rifle is fine. Mech hits a bit to much imo.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid fighting with each other. I've removed some posts.

Regards.

[Dajo.4380]

Just to compare the "OP-ness" of the new rifle to other LI options - Bomb Kit AA and Flamethrower AA

No Mech, this Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAQDrz4gj5y7DA-zRIYRUwXG1mAVUA2OA-e

Full Conditions on the Golem in the Special Forces Area.

 

Rifle: ~ 10560 DPS

Bomb Kit: ~ 15020 DPS

Flamethrower: ~ 12660 DPS

 

With about 70% DPS of Bomb Kit Rifle weirdly doesn't seem OP to me. Sure, it has range and syngergises well with AAR, but in no way OP.

 

What's OP in some of the previous statements and logs is always the Mech with around 50% of the overall DPS results. Sometimes even nicely with (not apparent) command skills in use.

EDIT to avoid doublepost:
Ah, i just saw. AAR and +20% Crit on Mech are the OP improvements to nerf (or AAR alone).

Edited June 30, 2022 by Dajo.4380
fixes and statement

[Okhu.7948]

Rifle doesn't need to be nerfed. Aim Assisted Rocked needs a slightly longer cooldown before the next rocket goes off. Rifle isn't the strong thing, Aim Assisted Rocket is.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Okhu.7948

[Kuma.1503]

Popping in to hopefully clear up some misconceptions. 

 

"Rifle fires too fast, it procs traits too quickly"

This is not true. There are 3 main traits interacting with the rifle auto attack. Sanguine Array, Aim Assisted Rocket, and Short Fuse. 

Sanguine Array gives 1 stack of might when you inflict bleed. Assuming 100% crit, you have a 33% chance to bleed on crit. 3 hits from the auto attack means you will inflict, on average, 1 bleed per rifle burst. 

By comparison, Pistol shoots once for 1 guaranteed stack of bleed and a 33% chance of inflicting 1 additional bleed on crit. Assuming 100% crit you generate, on average, 1.333 stacks of might per shot, or 4 stacks of might every 3 shots. 

Aim Assisted Rocet simply fired one rocket on crit with an internal cooldown of 3 seconds. Assuming 100% crit, you will the difference in rockets fired is negligable between weapons. Rifle will crit more than pistol and mace on average at lower crit chances because it fires 3 packets of damage, but loses that edge once you reach higher amounts of crit. 

In general, Rifle loses in raw dps output to mace. 

It's worth noting that flamethrower deals 10 seperate packets of damage and is the most consistent option for critting. 

Short Fuse simply gives fury when you hit with an explosion with a 4 second ICD. Both Mace and Rifle can proc this consistently. Pistol, sadly, cannot. 

 

" This is the strongest LI build Mech has"

Not true. Mech is an ineherently passive class by design. Because of that, you can achieve similar or better results with other weapons, including Pistol, Flamethrower, Bomb Kit and Mace. 

Currently, Mace benches higher than rifle, and trades might gen for regen, vigor, and barrier. 

You can also auto attack with Flamethrower if that is your forte. Juggernaut can provide a bit of extra might and stability at the cost of Modified Ammunition. This can be helpful in CC heavy fights such as Legendary Brazen in Chaos Fractal. 

For Raw auto attack DPS, Bomb kit benches considerably higher than rifle. 

In general, if this upsets you, you should be arguing against the inherently passive nature of Mech. 

 

"This should be nerfed because it is easy"

Aside from the fact that easy builds with good benches already exist in this game. See: Staff Mirage, P/P Deadeye, Condi Virtuoso, ect.

Difficulty of execution, sadly, has no bearing on results. This is why Catalyst was nerfed, and even within the same class, this is why 4 kit condi engineer builds have such mediocre benches despite their carpel tunnel inducing rotations. 

Mech is an easy class to point fingers at for various reasons, but the core philosophy behind why it is allowed to achieve decent results with minor effort is due to ANets core gameplay philosophy. 

"Complexity is not an excuse to overperform". 

This sadly goes both ways. Core condi engi won't necessarily bench well just because it's a difficult build. Likewise, Rifle, Bomb Kit or Mace camp Mech with 4 signets won't necessarily bench poorly due to their simplicity. 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[SmoovRihx.2789]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

All of this stuff we can achieve already with flamethrower auto attacks. The fact that flamethrower hits 5 times per second has never really been problematic, so why should it be that problematic for rifle now?

Flamethrower has the same range as rifle? Wow I never knew. Flamethrower can instatarget players without delay? Wow I never knew. Flamethrower can provide mobility and heavy cc? Wow I never knew.

I run circles around flamethrowers and render them ineffective. The same can't be done against the current rifle.

What a terrible comparison.

The problem with using numbers as a guide for balance is that it rarely reflects how it plays out in WvW/PvP. Theory and practice are two different things. Sounds like you're perfect for anets balance team.

Edited June 30, 2022 by SmoovRihx.2789

[Fwog.9387]

Unless you are open world, on your own or something. The rifle range doesn't really matter much. Mortar kit actually does almost as much damage and has more range. Rifle does have a faster projectile, a good amount of mobility and decent CC.

Rifle isn't broken, its just a good vehicle by which you can deliver, the same thing as many other options but in a different way. 

 

[Duglaive.5236]

/Sigh ... It really isn't the kitten rifle; rifle is certainly better now, but not the root of what we're all (yeah, all - by those of all viewpoints) seeing. If something like this happens, don't you bring up the patch notes, and really take your time and carefully read them? 

And once read, see the new changes and synergies that exist? And lastly, if you're actually trying out rifle Mech, consider loading up arcdps or even just opening up the in-game combat text log. It should become very apparent, very quickly, where the damage is coming from.

The only thing "OP" about the rifle is range. And it only has that because, gee, I don't know, it's a freaking rifle.

[LunieL.1738]

It's a battle between people who can read and who can't.

[Overedge.2435]

Since I'm primarily a WvW player, I view the class through a different lens a lot of the time.

For example, the mech is all but useless in WvW in my opinion. If you're a roamer who only ever fights 1-2 people then it's fine, but you're far more likely to be steamrolled by a zerg that rolls over your mech and burns it down in a second and a half (and then they burn it again before it even finishes its crash down from bringing it back with the elite signet). It sustains itself much better in the more controlled PvP competitive mode, and it's godly in PvE (which, as a cooperative mode, doesn't negatively affect other players by being stronger in the same way)

As for the rifle, the multi-hit auto attack feels good. It feels really good. And the multi-hit isn't really that big a deal, because engi already has numerous multi-hit auto attacks, like the flamethrower and grenades -- it part of the class's feel. However, it is far too strong for a competitive game mode. I've run rifle power scrapper as my main roaming build for years, but I'm not running it now because it just feels cheesy.

Since this is a rifle thread I won't bring up my criticisms on some of the changes to trait ranges, specifically Aim-Assisted Rocket and its synergy with flamethrower now that it procs in flamethrower's range...

Edited June 30, 2022 by Overedge.2435
They censored a non swear word so I checked to see if I typod or something

[GoguSpatzialu.7948]

Quote

you have to take a look at the log and check the simple rotations. im playing a pretty much optimal rotation with skill canceling/weaponstowing, etc while the mechanists are simply spamming autoattacks and maybe a rifle skill or mine here or there if they get bored and still they are almost competitive with me in damage. as it is right now all the power specs besides power mechanist are much worse than the top condi specs.

From that warrior video linked.

What makes people say "nerf rifle" is the fact that it's also an explosion, which procs the rocket, plus all the other trait synergy. I'm not sure there's even any other mechanic in the game that can benefit from as many traits as that.
The "problem" isn't even that. It's great to be able to build around a mechanic like that. The problem is that very few other classes can even dream of having such a synergy.

Instead of nerfs (although some tweaking might be needed), other classes should be (as Anet promised) brought up to have more viable builds.

[Fwog.9387]

5 hours ago, NeroBoron.7285 said:

Rifle is fine. Mech hits a bit to much imo.

I hesitate to say it hits too hard in a tree entirely devoted to and which sacrifices some of its mechanics for the pet. But it is a lot of dps for very little effort. Mech is 10 - 13kish my itself just for taking certain traits. With that said, this is the first time in the history of ever i have done 15 k with just a mortar kit ( i tested it on mechanist without mech attacking ) 

[Tails.9372]

20 minutes ago, Overedge.2435 said:

However, it is far too strong for a competitive game mode.

No, it's not. People are just overreacting as usual if they don't understand something. Ranger LB AA has pretty much the same DPS on their auto with about 50% more rage on top of it and yet people are dealing with it just fine. The whole thing rn is just people throwing a hissy fit based on "new toy syndrome" + "flashy AA makes their brain short circuit" but if one actually looks into the numbers from an unbiased perspective then there is nothing new or special to see here.

 

5 minutes ago, Jaricko.6143 said:

I hesitate to say it hits too hard in a tree entirely devoted to and which sacrifices some of its mechanics for the pet. But it is a lot of dps for very little effort.

Well that's just the nature of what it's supposed to be, it's really just a simple "don't like it play go play something else" issue.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Dawdler.8521]

11 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

No, it's not. People are just overreacting as usual if they don't understand something. Ranger LB AA has pretty much the same DPS on their auto with about 50% more rage on top of it and yet people are dealing with it just fine. The whole thing rn is just people throwing a hissy fit based on "new toy syndrome" + "flashy AA makes their brain short circuit" but if one actually looks into the numbers from an unbiased perspective then there is nothing new or special to see here.

The thing is though that rate of fire matter alot when it comes to competetive mode since everything proc something, be it for offense or defense. Something that fires slowly can hit like a truck for "equal" dps (such as the longbow) yet be much easier to actually avoid due to a well timed dodge, block, evade, reflect, etc. It's the reason the pistol AA is utter garbage - it fire slowly AND got crap damage with very long ramp up time on condi (and the shorter range doesnt help either) in comparison to something like say ranger shortbow.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Tails.9372]

11 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The thing is though that rate of fire matter alot when it comes to competetive mode since everything proc something, be it for offense or defense. Something that fires slowly can hit like a truck for "equal" dps (such as the longbow) yet be much easier to actually avoid due to a well timed dodge, block, evade, reflect, etc. It's the reason the pistol AA utter garbage - it fire slowly AND got crap damage with very long ramp up time on condi (and the shorter range doesnt help either).

If we would be talking about Harbinger you would have a point but this doesn't really apply to engi as most of the things that proc on hit either have an ICD (AAR (3 sec.) / Incendiary Power (10 sec.)) or some other drawback like an RNG factor (e.g.: it only procs 33% of the time) while RB doesn't do anything by itself aside from the assigned power damage.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Tails.9372

[SmoovRihx.2789]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

but if one actually looks into the numbers from an unbiased perspective then there is nothing new or special to see here.

 

Ever heard of the qualitative vs quantitative?

 

You are highly prioritizing a quantitative approach to balance. 

 

Theories and conclusions that ignored either or, are usually unreliable as a holistic approach.

 

I wonder if anet shares your philosophy?

[Tails.9372]

3 minutes ago, SmoovRihx.2789 said:

Ever heard of the qualitative vs quantitative?

 

You are highly prioritizing a quantitative approach to balance. 

 

Theories and conclusions that ignored either or, are usually unreliable as a holistic approach.

No, I'm just taking an objective instead of an emotional approach.

 

Quote

I wonder if anet shares your philosophy?

Obviously not.

[SmoovRihx.2789]

24 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

No, I'm just taking an objective instead of an emotional approach.

I tend to believe that ANET does it's best to do both. They made something more engaging, and fun to play, with the rifle changes. That's the qualitative side of their approach. And they also nerfed catalyst to be in line with other dps specs at their fullest potential, and that's quantitative side of their approach. So it's both really.

 

But once their theories were applied, and in practice, the result is this response. So ultimately, they have to revisit their decisions using both metrics (player experience and raw numbers) but maybe with a different person coming up with solutions.

 

This whole "I'm being objective without feelings" excuse is really you saying that you're not willing to consider different factors aside from the ones you've established as important.

Edited June 30, 2022 by SmoovRihx.2789
Typos

[Tails.9372]

51 minutes ago, SmoovRihx.2789 said:

I tend to believe that ANET does it's best to do both.

No, they definitely don't care about "doing both" as otherwise they wouldn't have handed out nerves to things that were already underperforming.

51 minutes ago, SmoovRihx.2789 said:

This whole "I'm being objective without feelings" excuse is really you saying that you're not willing to consider different factors aside from the ones you've established as true.

It seems more like you're just trying to be contrarian because you don't like what I said but also don't have an actual rebuttal either. Like it or not but if someone claims that something is "too strong" but fails to lay out the "how so" then my response in regards to the actual performance we can see in game not supporting the claim is a valid criticism, otherwise that (and similar) phrase would become nothing but a buzzword stand-in for "I simply don't like it, nerf please".

It's also not like I'm "not willing to consider different factors" but more that I don't consider "I just feel like something is too strong" to be a substantive criticism if its not backed by the data. If AAR (and other traits) didn't have an ICD then the situation would be different and the "but attack speed" objections would have been more valid but that's just not the case so at best one can use it as an argument to tone down the animations so that it doesn't give up the impression that something is strong when in fact it is not but that's about it.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, GoguSpatzialu.7948 said:

What makes people say "nerf rifle" is the fact that it's also an explosion, which procs the rocket, plus all the other trait synergy.

See, this is what makes it really hard for an engineer player to take any complaints about it serious.

Because people can't even be bothered to look up mechanics in the wiki to understand what is actually going on. The explosion tag has literally NOTHING to do with proccing AAR (aim assisted rocket). AAR procs whenever you score a critical strike against an enemy who is more than 150 away from you.

How am I supposed to take this feedback seriously if it just showed me that you don't understand what you are talking about?

[Tails.9372]

26 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

How am I supposed to take this feedback seriously if it just showed me that you don't understand what you are talking about?

You're not, sadly A-Net does.

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

You're not, sadly A-Net does.

They didn't actually nerf rifle damage, tho, but the mech damage instead. Which I am fine with. It would just have sucked if they had nerfed rifle again just because mechanist is dealing so much damage, since that could ruin the weapon for holo and scrapper as well.

[LunieL.1738]

38 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

How am I supposed to take this feedback seriously if it just showed me that you don't understand what you are talking about?

And it's still fight between those who can read and those who can't *drops popcorn, looks for whiskey*