Old Kaineng

[Nosrorav.4703]

6 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

For orr to be raised at a speed enough to cause a devastating tidal wave. Orr itself had to be complete rubble and debris.

Physics, Gravity, and Logic dictates it.

Period!!!

youre missing one piece of the puzzle: magic

without magic youd be right

but with magic the situation changes

magic defies physics and gravity in this and most other settings

i agree with above

Zhaitan used magic to preserve orr

rose it quickly enough that it could have become rubble without magic

[The Greyhawk.9107]

9 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Again, you are literally pointing at explicit lore and screaming "THIS IS WRONG"

We can have discussions on the hypothetical of why X happened or Y happened, that's cool. but screaming about explicitly stated lore facts as being completely false is just foolish and won't get anything anywhere.

We had Primordus travel from the far shiverpeaks to the ring of fire without a single sinkhole or earthquake happen. He then traveled back to the shiverpeaks again without so much as a described rumble.

We had a new set of islands formed from landmass and Kralkatorrik falling into the ocean in enough mass to form new islands with decent height above the waterline, and no major waves forming because of that.

When dragons are involved, sometimes the things that follow are natural, and sometimes they just AREN'T.

 

 

Which arguably has more to do with inconsistent and even lazy writing than it does established lore regarding the Elder Dragons.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[SoulGuardian.6203]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Again, you are literally pointing at explicit lore and screaming "THIS IS WRONG"

We can have discussions on the hypothetical of why X happened or Y happened, that's cool. but screaming about explicitly stated lore facts as being completely false is just foolish and won't get anything anywhere.

We had Primordus travel from the far shiverpeaks to the ring of fire without a single sinkhole or earthquake happen. He then traveled back to the shiverpeaks again without so much as a described rumble.

We had a new set of islands formed from landmass and Kralkatorrik falling into the ocean in enough mass to form new islands with decent height above the waterline, and no major waves forming because of that.

When dragons are involved, sometimes the things that follow are natural, and sometimes they just AREN'T.

 

Exactly. 

Because facts and logic be damned...

There's only so much fantasy you can put into a game before players start questioning, what about this and that? 

 

By the way, I don't think that Zhaitan cared so much about Orr to try preserve it.

He just wanted the undead army that came with it and somewhere to control it from.

 

Just another point.

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Exactly. 

Because facts and logic be damned...

There's only so much fantasy you can put into a game before players start questioning, what about this and that?

You are literally the first person I have seen since the launch of GW2 to complain about Zhaitan lifting Orr.

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

By the way, I don't think that Zhaitan cared so much about Orr to try preserve it.

He just wanted the undead army that came with it and somewhere to control it from.

 

Just another point.

And to preserve the corpses, one has to preserve the land. If it's all rubble and wrecked, the bodies are ruined. If the land is raised exactly as it was, the bodies are intact. Therefore the point goes toward "Zhaitan raised Orr exactly as it was when he restored it with magic." then "He didn't give a kitten about the land." Point goes against your stance, not for it.

 

I just love how you have zero issue with the land being entirely submerged almost instantly by magic. But the land being restored to the surface as it originally was by magic is too much. This isn't just some floating island being restored, but the actual complete landmass being lifted straight up, with all the underlying earth and everything with it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Facet_of_Shadow_and_Death  Read the blurbs, yes he cared (in some form) about the ruins. He liked Orr as it was when he lifted it out of the ocean.

Again, we have literal lore and witnesses to the event. We explicitly know what happened that day when Orr rose up. You can't make an argument that Zhaitan raised the landmass slowly because it literally DID NOT HAPPEN.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I'm trying to get some answers in which why almost every major outpost from gw1 was lost.

Because the world has changed in 250 years. Temporary camps that were major locations in GW1 have been abandoned or emptied as people moved into actual towns. Other areas got destroyed or affected by changes of power in the local region.

The world is not static, the world changes and moves.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Shame that the few people who were actually contributing something have stopped replying.

 

I'd rather someone say simple and clearly that the devs just felt like it because of this or that, than you coming here, boring me to tears with your flaming attitude... end up not solving anything.

This right here is a huge waste of time, when you reply with obvious statements from the game, just like 99% of your sentences, assuming people are dumb or of low comprehension. 

 

I mean, there was a conversation until you endlessly looped it into "Orr cannot have been raised quickly because then it'd be rubble. Therefore it was raised slowly and couldn't have made any waves. If it was raised quickly that means 100% the pale tree would be destroyed despite us not having any clue on it's actual size of the time"

 

Nobody here is "flaming" anybody. And we are giving you exactly what you want, it's just being ignored. "Why did this happen?" "Because of this." and then you went into a post about how the Raising of Orr couldn't happen like that, despite it literally happening like that, as per books, ingame, and other comments from dev sources.

Simple answer then? "The devs wanted a way to shake up the government of Cantha so we can actually enter and not be involved in a government overthrow. Therefore they had the Zhaitan wakening destroy part of/all of Kaineng city, weakening the Ministry of purity and causing a regime change. By the time we come in, the government and people are more open to talking to the rest of the world."

Some of us tried to have a conversation. Some of us sat and complained about how a dragon can't do X.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

The Real world has hundreds of thousands of natural and man-made structures, sometimes entire cites, that are well over 250 years old.  Some managed to survive both World Wars unscathed, or natural disasters that would rival an Elder Dragon.  I don't think I'm asking a lot for, on top of more consistency in the Lore and World building, to have a few more places that can be recognizable on sight as being from the original game.  The only places that remain that I can think of off the top of my head that fit that are the Eye of the North and Augury Rock, though the latter is only barely recognizable. If there are others they aren't coming to me.

[Kalavier.1097]

12 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

The Real world has hundreds of thousands of natural and man-made structures, sometimes entire cites, that are well over 250 years old.  Some managed to survive both World Wars unscathed, or natural disasters that would rival an Elder Dragon.  I don't think I'm asking a lot for, on top of more consistency in the Lore and World building, to have a few more places that can be recognizable on sight as being from the original game.  The only places that remain that I can think of off the top of my head that fit that are the Eye of the North and Augury Rock, though the latter is only barely recognizable. If there are others they aren't coming to me.

That's not a crazy thought, but we have to recognize some regions have entirely different governments in charge, some areas have been affected by natural disasters and war.

But the thing on the same token is, look at images of cities before WW2 and after the brutal fighting and bombing there. It's unrecognizable. It was rebuilt, but the fighting ruined the place. Some places in GW2 rebuilt. Others didn't get a chance. That's what happened to places in GW2. Some places rebuild, some relocated. And some never got the chance to rebuild.

And some places we so fondly remember from GW2 where little more then temporary camp sites in the story, shelter as we traveled from point A to point B. Places that served as outposts, but had very little there besides some vendors and henchmen.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

12 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That's not a crazy thought, but we have to recognize some regions have entirely different governments in charge, some areas have been affected by natural disasters and war.

But the thing on the same token is, look at images of cities before WW2 and after the brutal fighting and bombing there. It's unrecognizable. It was rebuilt, but the fighting ruined the place. Some places in GW2 rebuilt. Others didn't get a chance. That's what happened to places in GW2. Some places rebuild, some relocated. And some never got the chance to rebuild.

And some places we so fondly remember from GW2 where little more then temporary camp sites in the story, shelter as we traveled from point A to point B. Places that served as outposts, but had very little there besides some vendors and henchmen.

I don't care about the "camps and temporary outposts", I'm more than capable of understanding the context as to why most of those don't exist.  Also I'm not asking for places or things that existed exclusively as the mechanical, non-instanced player lobby towns and outposts of GW1.  Things like the Talmark Pillars https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talmark_pillars

Also, do I have to make a list of the many of ancient constructions that managed to survive in the middle of the worst theaters of both World Wars?  It'd be a pain in the kitten to do so on what little time I have off, but I will. 

All I wanted was for there to have been a few, Just A FEW, more places that were from GW1, and were recognizable as such, to have made it over to GW2.  Couldn't get that in almost anywhere in Tyria, almost anywhere in Elona, and nowhere in Cantha.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

21 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

 

All I wanted was for there to have been a few, Just A FEW, more places that were from GW1, and were recognizable as such, to have made it over to GW2.  Couldn't get that in almost anywhere in Tyria, almost anywhere in Elona, and nowhere in Cantha.

I really would have liked if certain places such as sanctum cay was a playable area.

And off course, as you said, a few more recognisable and familiar places.

Even if it was just a single one per area.

From prophecies to eye of the North.

In Ascalon, shiverpeaks, kryta, maguuma, crystal desert, Cantha, and eotn areas.

[Nosrorav.4703]

43 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I really would have liked if certain places such as sanctum cay was a playable area.

And off course, as you said, a few more recognisable and familiar places.

Even if it was just a single one per area.

From prophecies to eye of the North.

In Ascalon, shiverpeaks, kryta, maguuma, crystal desert, Cantha, and eotn areas.

ascalon city serenity temple and ashford catacombs are pretty recognizable

theyre wrecked ruins in both gw1 and gw2

kamadan has familiar layout just with a bunch of bones placed on top

sunspear sanctuary was familiar too no real big changes just some braziers

eye of the north too

shing jea monastery and arborstone were also very familiar in design

and harvest temple which wasnt destroyed

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, Nosrorav.4703 said:

ascalon city serenity temple and ashford catacombs are pretty recognizable

theyre wrecked ruins in both gw1 and gw2

kamadan has familiar layout just with a bunch of bones placed on top

sunspear sanctuary was familiar too no real big changes just some braziers

eye of the north too

shing jea monastery and arborstone were also very familiar in design

and harvest temple which wasnt destroyed

I disagree with most of these, especially Spamadan and Shing Jea Monastery.  Only similarities that past and present Shing Jea have is that they are both based on Asian architecture, though they still differ on the specific styles.  Spamadan doesn't even have that.  I mean, I guess both have docks?  About all I can see looking at the two versions as I write this.

Tell you what, I'll give you Sunpear Sanctuary/Sun Refuge even though the layouts are a little different (and the giant Branding crystals in the ceiling). Anet managed to make them close enough as to still be familiar as being the same place.

I've already said more than a few times that I do view EotN/HoM as being the closest across the two games.

Arborestone is recognizable as being part of Echovald, no doubt, but I actually don't see it as being the same "Arborestone" as what we see in Factions.  Its layout is much too different.  And its feels....smaller and much more simplistic.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

3 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I disagree with most of these, especially Spamadan and Shing Jea Monastery.  Only similarities that past and present Shing Jea have is that they are both based on Asian architecture, though they still differ on the specific styles.  Spamadan doesn't even have that.  I mean, I guess both have docks?  About all I can see looking at the two versions as I write this.

Tell you what, I'll give you Sunpear Sanctuary/Sun Refuge even though the layouts are a little different (and the giant Branding crystals in the ceiling). Anet managed to make them close enough as to still be familiar as being the same place.

I've already said more than a few times that I do view EotN/HoM as being the closest across the two games.

Arborestone is recognizable as being part of Echovald, no doubt, but I actually don't see it as being the same "Arborestone" as what we see in Factions.  Its layout is much too different.  And its feels....smaller and much more simplistic.

Yes 100% right.

From closest to just a vague coincidence:

 

1. Eye of the North is Spot On.

2. Arborstone is close enough.

3. Sunspear Sanctuary location and layout'ish. Debatable.

4. Harvest Temple. The Spiral is pretty good. Temple itself no so much.

5. Ruins of Ascalon. The wall's location. Just about it.

Everything else is kinda like, as if you have to use your imagination and memory muscles to try visualise the places.

Edited July 11, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Bringing up Serenity Temple is a weird one to me.  Its one of the least relevant locations in Post-Searing Ascalon and its actual structure and layout is pretty uninteresting and unremarkable.  There's a small degree of similarity between the GW1 and GW2 version, that being the platform with the concentric circles that makes up much of the remaining structure in both, though again the similarities mostly end there.  The GW2 version the platform has been pretty much pancaked whereas in the past it was about a story or so high off the surrounding floor.  Thee outer walls from the GW1 version are gone, as are the "walls" created by the landscape, and another weird bit, both had broken several pillars but the ones in GW2 are about twice as large, maybe more so.

Ascalon City is just GONE. There is hardly anything remaining aside from the portion of the Great Wall that the city was build up against.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Ascalon City is just GONE. There is hardly anything remaining aside from the portion of the Great Wall that the city was build up against.

Not at all though? You can make out the southern wall and while there is a crater there from Adelbern casting the Foefire, you also have the pre-Searing lake refilled as well.

[Teratus.2859]

On 7/11/2022 at 2:45 AM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I really would have liked if certain places such as sanctum cay was a playable area.

And off course, as you said, a few more recognisable and familiar places.

Even if it was just a single one per area.

From prophecies to eye of the North.

In Ascalon, shiverpeaks, kryta, maguuma, crystal desert, Cantha, and eotn areas.

A lot of us older players probably would have too.

But it's understandable why it happens and to be fair we have gotten a lot of Gw1 elements back in Gw2, and there's been plenty of people complaining about that over the years as well.. I know i've argued with a few lol.

 

But we do have to remember that Gw2 isn't Gw1, a lot of the people working on Gw2 never worked on Gw1 and there are a lot of people competing for their ideas to make it into the game.

Art direction, story direction etc it's all prone to change as the people who make the game do, be that literally or in the sense of aging and how they think, what influences them etc.

And not just developers.. there are plenty of us players also doing the same, voicing our opinions, pushing our ideas and sometimes they make it in too.

 

At the end of the day it is just a game, it's all fantasy.. and it doesn't always have to make perfect sense to be enjoyable.

[Kalavier.1097]

11 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

A lot of us older players probably would have too.

But it's understandable why it happens and to be fair we have gotten a lot of Gw1 elements back in Gw2, and there's been plenty of people complaining about that over the years as well.. I know i've argued with a few lol.

 

But we do have to remember that Gw2 isn't Gw1, a lot of the people working on Gw2 never worked on Gw1 and there are a lot of people competing for their ideas to make it into the game.

Art direction, story direction etc it's all prone to change as the people who make the game do, be that literally or in the sense of aging and how they think, what influences them etc.

And not just developers.. there are plenty of us players also doing the same, voicing our opinions, pushing our ideas and sometimes they make it in too.

 

At the end of the day it is just a game, it's all fantasy.. and it doesn't always have to make perfect sense to be enjoyable.

 

Another aspect, which could be why they chose the large time jump as well as various major environmental effects is gameplay wise.

GW2 was made because the last expansion idea they had for GW1 simply wasn't possible with the engine they had running.

GW1 maps are great yes, but a lot of them don't account for the ability to jump, fall, swim, etc. These things make traversing a map entirely different as you have to account for vertical movement as well as horizontal. So some maps are quite similar, and others see a bit of tweaking, ranging from minor to major.

Add in this technical aspect to a writing aspect, and we have regions that used to be human controlled (or neutral and unclaimed) which suddenly have new owners, who don't care about the old ruins or specific landmarks. Maybe they get destroyed in the sake of construction or environment changes because dragons. Maybe they just fall apart because the new group controlling the area don't care to maintain or preserve them.