Chrono wells should get a flip mechanic

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Devs are aware chrono wells are not good. However, the ideas to rework them are very questionable IMHO. The recent changes (superspeed after not moving for 3 seconds, or negligible boonrip after 3 seconds) make the situation even worse, removing every skill identity and turning wells into nothing but vectors to activate the alac trait, without any usage on their own (except gravity well). This is very bad.

I propose chrono wells to get an optional "flip effect" to collapse them prematurely; if the well ends correctly it does one thing, if the well is collapsed prematurely via the flip skill, it is destroyed and creates a different effect.

- WELL OF ETERNITY:
Pulses condi cleanse.

• If it ends correctly: big healing (like now)
• If you collapse it: smaller heal, but you get resolution and protection (maybe even stability or resistance? I don't know, just throwing ideas)

The idea is that well of eternity should be used to either rewind back time (and bring you back when you were healthy) or preserve the stability of the current timeline (and prevent you\your allies from being wounded in the first place); I like this contrast of past vs present for such a skill.

- WELL OF PRECOGNITION
Casting this skill gives you (not your allies; just you) 0.5s evade, just because chrono gets no distortion and I got this thing rupted so much it's enraging.

• If it ends correctly: allies inside the well get endurance (like now)
• If you collapse it: the next attack for allies inside the well is unblockable

The idea for flip is that, instead of allowing your allies to predict the future and block, you allow your allies to predict the future and attack

 

- WELL OF ALACRITY\WELL OF ACTION => WELL OF CELERITY
Those two skills become one because devs don't like chrono getting access to both quickness and alac.
The well would pulse slow and chilled on foes. As far as collapsing and ending the well, I have 2 proposal

First proposal

• If it ends correctly: allies get alacrity.
• If you collapse it: allies get quickness.

Some sort of in-between the previous design and the new one, to make everyone sort-of happy; you can provide alac or quickness depending on the situation, but not both. Lowers the skill floor (you don't have to hard-spec into anything), but it also raises the skill ceiling if you want to pull off some fun shenanigans (one of your allies borked up their rotation, so you're able to quickly intervene and fix the issue). Isn't THIS clever?

Second proposal

• If it ends correctly: foes get immobilized.
• If you collapse it: you give switness (or superspeed? I like swiftness better tbh) and vigor to allies,

The idea of the well is to allow you to outrun the opponent; either by immobilizing them -if it ends correctly- or by speeding you -if you collapse it-. VFX could be an oppressive black\purple cloud being concentrated towards the core of the well (kind of like Shadowfall) as it pulses; collapsing the well prematurely would blast a gust of wind from the core, propelling all allies in the area forward, whereas the well ending correctly would create a dark purple\black circle of rays radiating from the ground, signalling the area where foes have been immobilized

 

- WELL OF CALAMITY
Right now it can crit for 800, and last tick can crit for 4k. This one needs the biggest rework IMHO, it's very uninteresting. I think it should pulse cripple\weakness (like now) and 2k regular damage if critting with zerk amulet.

• If it ends correctly: Enemies inside the well are knocked down, but no further damage is dealt; no last tick big hit.
• If you collapse it: you teleport to the well's location and knock back (not launch: knock back) surrounding foes.

The idea is to create a very debilitating skill to allow further attacks, like winter's bite does (differently) for rangers; however, if collapsed, it would give chrono some offensive mobility, in a different way than blink.

 

- WELL OF AGING
We unified two wells, so there's room for a new well, which would be a condi well. Every tick inflicts poison and vulnerability

• If it ends correctly: enemies are immobilized and tormented.
• If you collapse it: enemies are dazed and confused.

The idea is to age your opponent's body (kinda like what Dr Strange does with the apple), decaying them alive by slowing your opponents healing and increasing the damage they take. On well end, your body is most definitely old, on its death bed and can't do all of these young things anymore, like running around and what not. However, you may decide to collapse the well earlier to age the mind instead; hence the confusion and the daze, for full dementia. An idea for its relative vfx could be a whole lot of trees\bushes sprouting and then quickly withering; if it get collapsed, trees would turn purple and shatter like glass.

- GRAVITY WELL
We all love this skill. This doesn't need really any rework, it's perfect as it is. I'm just throwing ideas for the flip mechanic, but I really love this thing as it currently is.

• If it ends correctly: enemies are pulled and damaged (0 damage in pvp but whatever)
• If you collapse it: allies inside the well get stability.

The idea is to totally disrupt your opponents via the gigantic pull or to preserve your allies from disruption with stability. It could be used as a weird contender for guardian's stab? Cooldown would be too high to do such a thing, but many classes get their fair share of 10 stacks of stab on their elite skill. I don't think it would be bad having such a tool on mesmer too, assuming it was limited to chronomancer.

 

MY THOUGHT PROCESS ABOUT WHY I'M PROPOSING THESE THINGS

Real talk here: nobody's excited for 1s chilled (that's what well of recall does). It's not a skill, it's not fun, it has no reward. If you're really good you can place two of them in CS, and get 2s of chilled instead of one. Is anyone happy with this?

These flip effects would play a lot on the theme of time (with past vs future and what not) and would thematically fit with the chrono design as it was intended by the original developers. They talked about how they liked these kind of contrast when developing chrono, and I'd like to expand on that.

Additionally, well trait could reward collapsing a well with a blast finisher.

It would be a massive effort, but it answers the question "how to make chrono interesting without making it boring AoE spam"... and wells are at risk of becoming very boring, because they're just pulsing the same thing over the same area over and over and over.

Necro wells are core wells, so they're very plain (strong, but plain). Elite specs, however, are a different thing; scrapper wells move with the scrapper; the new thief wells all have a a shadowstep attached. They're exciting because they do something other than "pulsing a thing".

Chrono wells are attached to an elite specialization... but nothing about them feels elite at all right now. This flipping mechanic would give chrono wells a separate identity from wells of necromancers -just like the moving wells of a scrapper and the porting wells of a specter are still wells but feel vastly different.

Honestly, "you spend 3/4s casting a skill, then you wait 3s, then you get a real skill" is not a very strong identity. Everybody hates it. It was done with CS in mind, but getting the privilege of playing like a chronomancer once every 105s is definitely not enough... and this can't be fixed by just buffing wells, because otherwise they'd become unreasonably strong with CS.
Wells need some more use outside of CS without turning them into skills that do everything at once, and I feel like bringing this kind of choice would definitely do that; there's flexibility to do everything you need, but not all at once.

One of the design points of chronomancer (which I loved) was "place the wells (or shield5) in continuum split, then reap the benefit on continuum split end, then place them immediately again and reap twice the benefits". If these wells flipped like mesmer sword3 (which goes on cooldown when casted, not when flipped) this kind of interaction would be preserved; the cooldown resets correctly with CS, even if you still have to use the collapse when CS ends.

Edited April 17 by Terrorhuz.4695

[ibri.1578]

The Mesmer Main Gang is flip positive.

[Sebrent.3625]

From a high level I like it. Thematically it is cool (I liked your theme of aging the mind vs aging the body).

I also think it's intelligent in that it gives more options in the usage of these skills. Options are a good thing IMO. They empower the player. Some may hate one of the options, but if they like the other, they may still use the skill. Those that like both options are simply thrilled. Then those that hate both, well, might also hate the current no option impl too ;-) I think there is a precedence for having this sort of functionality in the mesmer already as well with the way temporal curtain has a secondary activation to it for the pull.

 

As far as the details of what they actually do, I think we could dig more into that for the sake of balance, usefulness per game mode, etc.. Some people really like to apply chill as it interrupts your opponent's timing on their skills as well as movement and is killer to movement when combo'd with cripple. Others will look at it possibly from a raiding perspective and not be big fans.

[Xaylin.1860]

I like the idea but flip overs would be a bit messy with CS, wouldn't they? It's not a no no but feel e-spec specific Utilites should work properly with the already shallow spec mechanic. 

It's not very inspired but I just want the baseline "big third hit" theme to go. If ANet is married to this idea, they could work it into AiWtW so it is a choice, not a must. The heal doesn't fit there anyway ("People, let's wait in this spot please. The heal will be great, I promise!") and is outperformed by Inspiration and Restorative Mantras since it was reworked.

Now... how would you guys feel about giving Glamours a flip over? Considering Portal already got one? Then rework Chaotic Interruption into making the flip over Daze nearby enemies? 👿

Edited July 1, 2022 by Xaylin.1860

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I like the idea but flip overs would be a bit messy with CS, wouldn't they? It's not a no no but feel e-spec specific Utilites should work properly with the already shallow spec mechanic. 

As mentioned in the post, they would work just as sword3, and sword3 works perfectly fine with CS already.
The skill goes on CD when the skill is first casted, not when you swap. This means you can
- enter CS
- use sword3 clone
- exit CS
- use sword3 port

and have once again your sword3 clone ready to use.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[semak.7481]

Before any change to chrono, the most important thing to do is to give a chrono an identity it doesnt have - do somthing about insanely stupid mechanic it has - Continuum Split. 

Its super conditional and on absurly high CD.

Which means... if your cd's are down - you cant get ANY value of it, you cant double cast skills that are on cd, on that lame cd.

But only when mesmer has all cds it can be very frustrating to face. (CS I mean,in competitive modes ofc.Overall its so weak as a class, its nowher near the level of other classes. They buffed freakin MOA SIGNET, reduced 50% (!!!!!!!!!) cd but its still nowhere near to push it to high tier plays obviously, the same goes for insane virtuoso but thats offtopic).

And once CS is used, just like in a cartoon the carriage turns into a pumpkin (you turn into a core mesmer).

While you are in CS - CC's prevent you from getting any value from it, just drop 1 CC and byebye CS and gl waiting for the next.

Imagine being a necromancer and be able to use shroud for 2-6 seconds once per ~90s. Holoforge ? Yikes design to begin with

Edited July 1, 2022 by semak.7481

[Sebrent.3625]

I agree that Continuum Split is an issue but with more of an emphasis on how it makes it harder to balance it. Anything you give to the Chronomancer, they can potentially use it twice in a short[er] window. That's complicates trying to balance it.

 

As far as an identify for Chronomancer ... time based themes one could do:

- Slowing time for enemies (slow / chill / cripple) vs speeding up for allies (quickness / alacrity / swiftness / superspeed / vigor?)

- Stopping/interrupting time (dazes, stuns)

- Rolling back time ... abilities with two parts so you can teleport back to where you were when you first used it ... like Thief has in ridiculous abundance just from its core.

- Adding time (increase boon durations) ... Subtracting time (decreasing condition/CC duration)

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I've said it several times and I'll say it again. All mesmer elite specs are garbage, all of them are glorified core mesmer. 

Change the kittening F skills to do something original fgs. Enough of the garbage F1 damage F2 condi F3 rupt F4 defensive. 

Now OT I like the idea a lot. It's not like wells will be used either way but at least they're usable.

[semak.7481]

53 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I've said it several times and I'll say it again. All mesmer elite specs are garbage, all of them are glorified core mesmer. 

Thats what you get when you have a designer who cant come up with something original and basically do his job?

Virtuoso is a pathetic copy of this masterpiece

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, Sebrent.3625 said:

I agree that Continuum Split is an issue but with more of an emphasis on how it makes it harder to balance it. Anything you give to the Chronomancer, they can potentially use it twice in a short[er] window. That's complicates trying to balance it.

That's why I was thinking about flip skills for the wells. They would get additional effects, but you'd have to choose which one you want to trigger; not getting both those effects at the same time, they can be more easily balanced with CS in mind. The strenght of each individual effect would be about the same as it is now; you just aren't forced to live with sub-par skills for the 99% of your playtime when CS isn't available. Just to add more flexibility to the class.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[mungozen.2379]

I appreciate the effort that went into the OP.  Flip mechanics are a cool idea, but not one I am necessarily fond of, however you put a lot of consideration into your post and I'd be happier with these than what we currently have.

One of the issues with Chrono Wells now is that Alac is a 360 radius while every other effect is 240.  So, as was pointed out, Wells are simply a delivery method for Alac and by themselves are pretty garbage after the changes/nerfs.  We know there is an update to Chrono coming Aug 2nd, and I am hoping they align the radius and effects of wells in that update.  Put another way, I feel Wells deserve to be good enough without the 2 Well traits to buff them, and those two Well traits either need to be stronger stand alone, or merged.

It really sucks knowing that we currently have a garbage eSpec in Chrono that is waiting some changes in another month.  This game is suffering so much due to the nonsense changes the devs have been making.  I don't hold much hope for the next patch, I'm not even sure if I'll be kittened to play before then either.  I don't hold much hope that Chrono will be enjoyable and/or competitive to play in any game mode after Aug 2nd.

[Curunen.8729]

This is a cool idea, certainly looks more fun than at present.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

Thats what you get when you have a designer who cant come up with something original and basically do his job?

Virtuoso is a pathetic copy of this masterpiece

Didn't knew that. It's a blatant copy. At least they should copy the blades circling the enemy as an immobile on F3 instead of the kitten that we've now.
But well, I've been saying since beta that F3 should be like DH longbow 5.

[semak.7481]

On 7/1/2022 at 10:43 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Didn't knew that. It's a blatant copy. At least they should copy the blades circling the enemy as an immobile on F3 instead of the kitten that we've now.
But well, I've been saying since beta that F3 should be like DH longbow 5.

What do you mean DH longbow 5? It must be just as busted?

If no one talks about how broken it is and flies under the radar, doesnt mean its fine. Imagine hitting someone with f3 and it would produce a ward around him, lol

Edited July 2, 2022 by semak.7481

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

15 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

What do you mean DH longbow 5? It must be just as busted?

If no one talks about how broken it is and flies under the radar, doesnt mean its fine. Imagine hitting someone with f3 and it would produce a ward around him, lol

Well, F3 roots instead of a ward. 

In all seriousness I would rather be stuck in a ward than rooted. 

[semak.7481]

1 minute ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Well, F3 roots instead of a ward. 

In all seriousness I would rather be stuck in a ward than rooted. 

Rooted than warded...? I mean, cleanses and free out of jail (free removal of soft cc's) are more prevalent than stability.