Power Rifle Mechanist Problem

[Horky.2507]

Why is power mechnist a problem?   

I look at snow crows and power rifle mech is not even on the front page.   Am I missing some secret build that is doing more than the highest listed power engineer build, Power| Sword (holosmith) at 37.291k dps?  Power | Rifle is listed next at 37, 115 dps.  Can someone link me a recorded parse that is more than either and is the basis for the apparent outrage?

[Atomnium.1532]

People are not really complaining about the OPness of the build but it's ease of access.

Basically you can reach about decent numbers, perma quick+alac+decent shields etc basically the whole bloated kit of the mechanist while pressing litterally 1 and afking.

I don't think it really needs a nerf but to that account a bunch of elites specs will not reach either this boon uptime or this dps while having to do 200 apm which can be frustrating when you put way more effort for a lower result.

[Horky.2507]

8 minutes ago, Atomnium.1532 said:

People are not really complaining about the OPness of the build but it's ease of access.

Basically you can reach about decent numbers, perma quick+alac+decent shields etc basically the whole bloated kit of the mechanist while pressing litterally 1 and afking.

I don't think it really needs a nerf but to that account a bunch of elites specs will not reach either this boon uptime or this dps while having to do 200 apm which can be frustrating when you put way more effort for a lower result.

What power dps build are you playing that you can apply perma quick+alac+ decent shields?

There are, without a doubt, zero specs in this game that take 200 apm to be able to play flawlessly.  

[Tails.9372]

46 minutes ago, Horky.2507 said:

Why is power mechnist a problem?   

It's not, people just act like they've never seen a LI build before. Others might be spitefull because "support mechanist exists". A common complaint was "I feel like its too strong" so basically a combination of "I don't use a DPS meter" and "core Tyria trash mobs die really fast to it".

I also like A-Nets response here: "We originally wanted to make power rifle mechanist more viable but screw it, now we want to disincentivize "passive gameplay" so let us nerf the mech AA and the AAR trait (both are nerfs which also hit / are going to hit builds that focus on more active gameplay pretty much just as hard)".

 

37 minutes ago, Atomnium.1532 said:

People are not really complaining about the OPness of the build but it's ease of access.

Nah they complain because they're bored and need something to vent their frustrations. If this really was a principled stance against LI builds than there are more / better targets to go after which they conveniently ignore showing that this is nothing more than just the "outrage of the week".

 

37 minutes ago, Atomnium.1532 said:

Basically you can reach about decent numbers, perma quick+alac+decent shields etc basically the whole bloated kit of the mechanist while pressing litterally 1 and afking.

No, the build everyone was throwing a hissy fit at, you know the "pressing litterally 1 and afking" one only has perma fury and struggles to give itself 25 might. Everything else requires additional buttons in which regard other classes can get you more for less.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Stalima.5490]

well if we're counting each bullet the engineer can likely hit over 300 bullets per minute. which is far more than a mere 200 actions per minute.

[Horky.2507]

7 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

It's not, people just act like they've never seen a LI build before. Others might be spitefull because "support mechanist exists". A common complaint was "I feel like its too strong" so basically a combination of "I don't use a DPS meter" and "core Tyria trash mobs die really fast to it".

I also like A-Nets response here: "We originally wanted to make power rifle mechanist more viable but screw it, now we want to disincentivize "passive gameplay" so let us nerf the mech AA and the AAR trait (both are nerfs which also hit / are going to hit builds that focus on more active gameplay pretty much just as hard)".

 

We can't forget that they nerfed rifle 1, too.  😢  Thank you for your great reply

[Fwog.9387]

6 hours ago, Atomnium.1532 said:

People are not really complaining about the OPness of the build but it's ease of access.

Nah some people were. People who don't use arcdps and don't know how to read logs. 

[soul.9651]

On 7/1/2022 at 9:08 AM, Horky.2507 said:

Why is power mechnist a problem?   

I look at snow crows and power rifle mech is not even on the front page.   Am I missing some secret build that is doing more than the highest listed power engineer build, Power| Sword (holosmith) at 37.291k dps?  Power | Rifle is listed next at 37, 115 dps.  Can someone link me a recorded parse that is more than either and is the basis for the apparent outrage?

Ofc its not in the front page...IT WAS OLD BENCHMARKS BEFORE ANY BALACE PATCHES -.-.. now they took everything down tho and are updating the page

[Cyninja.2954]

On 7/1/2022 at 8:08 AM, Horky.2507 said:

Why is power mechnist a problem?   

Depends on how you define problem. Having 20 per open world squad and mechanist dominating squad and instanced content surely did not help.

Quote

I look at snow crows and power rifle mech is not even on the front page.   

This might be a surprise, but SC don't auto update their builds 2 minutes after a patch drops. It takes a while to incorporate new builds and post them.

Quote

Am I missing some secret build that is doing more than the highest listed power engineer build, Power| Sword (holosmith) at 37.291k dps?  Power | Rifle is listed next at 37, 115 dps.  Can someone link me a recorded parse that is more than either and is the basis for the apparent outrage?

You see no issue in difference between 1 build which:

- is mostly melee, aka around 300 range

- has a intermediate complex rotation

- requires the use of multiple kits

- has 2 short range movement skills,

versus a build which

- has 1,200 range

- pierces on its primary attack

- has a very simplistic rotation which amounts to press F1-3, press 1-4, press things as they come off cd

- has 2-4 signets on the bar

- has access to a snare, 2 long range movement skills, 2 knockbacks (less important for PvE, though the cc is very nice, more of an impact on PvP/WvW)

- can self provide a large majority of offensive boons

There is no difference here?

Edited July 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You see no issue in difference between 1 build which:

- is mostly melee, aka around 300 range

- has a intermediate complex rotation

- requires the use of multiple kits

- has 2 short range movement skills,

versus a build which

- has 1,200 range

- pierces on its primary attack

- has a very simplistic rotation which amounts to press F1-3, press 1-4, press things as they come off cd

- has 2-4 signets on the bar

- has access to a snare, 2 long range movement skills, 2 knockbacks (less important for PvE, though the cc is very nice, more of an impact on PvP/WvW)

- can self provide a large majority of offensive boons

There is no difference here?

The holo is still superior because it has far more options due to being able to take kits in it's rotation and having a kit on the toolbelt which is the holoforge adding a significant number of additional functions over that of the mechanist which not only loses 2 toolbelt functions but also isn't using a kit, the mechanist is doing damage but not a whole lot else.

 

realistically though, the mechanist isn't doing anything that a ranger couldn't just do already in that regard.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Cyninja.2954]

26 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

The holo is still superior because it has far more options due to being able to take kits in it's rotation and having a kit on the toolbelt which is the holoforge adding a significant number of additional functions over that of the mechanist which not only loses 2 toolbelt functions but also isn't using a kit, the mechanist is doing damage but not a whole lot else.

It's not just damage. It's damage at 4 times the range. Any experinced players knows that one of the main contributors to damage output is uptime on boss. Your uptime WILL be significantly higher on a p.mech in any encounter where 100% melee is not guaranteed.

You also decided to skip the self providing boons with a ton of movement where p.mech outperform holos utility.

Quote

 

realistically though, the mechanist isn't doing anything that a ranger couldn't just do already in that regard.

 

 

 

Dear god.... no sorry. I'm not getting to explain that one which is beyond hilarious of a comparison. All those 1,200 damage rangers from just autos were so dominant the last few years. /s

Please look beyond "oh that weapon also is 1,200 range (1,500) so the class must be doing just as much damage". This comparison is just wrong on every level.

Unless you are next level joking taking all those longbow max range rangers into account which love sending in their bear pet. In that case, sorry I missed the joke.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Alcatraznc.3869]

16 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

It's not just damage. It's damage at 4 times the range. Any experinced players knows that one of the main contributors to damage output is uptime on boss. Your uptime WILL be significantly higher on a p.mech in any encounter where 100% melee is not guaranteed.

You also decided to skip the self providing boons with a ton of movement where p.mech outperform holos utility.

Except that is wrong. 

 

Mechanist movement is trash if you dont use both the teleporation sigil and the trait that allows passive to proc when the skill is active. And even then you have no more movement than any other class with 1 teleport and a passive 25% movement speed.

 

You are talking about a DPS Mechanist which doesnt provide boon, or at least not a significant quantity. A holosmith can generate its own 25might and if needed, it can have a 100% uptime on its own fury as well.

And most encounter happens at close range anyway.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

9 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Except that is wrong. 

 

Mechanist movement is trash if you dont use both the teleporation sigil and the trait that allows passive to proc when the skill is active. And even then you have no more movement than any other class with 1 teleport and a passive 25% movement speed.

and rifle 5 which with 800 units I'd consider a long range movement skill (down from buff to 900 again in 2nd patch). Or you could use rocket boots in the spare utility slot for 2 more movement charges.

Quote

 

You are talking about a DPS Mechanist which doesnt provide boon, or at least not a significant quantity. A holosmith can generate its own 25might and if needed, it can have a 100% uptime on its own fury as well.

And most encounter happens at close range anyway.

 

Yes, dps mechanist which CAN be altered to provide self quickness, alacrity, fury and might surpassing any other power build for open world on rifle solo.

Or it can be run as pure dps build where it outperformed or rivaled any other range power build pre nerf, now it rivals and/or slightly underperforms any other power build at 1,200 range.

In fact the only power build which contests p.mech in damage and range atm is virtuoso, which could be considered overtuned as well (yet while not insanely complex, far more complex than p.mech). Hence why the current top end groups run both, virt and p.mech, on their HT CM tries.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Puck.3697]

On 7/1/2022 at 7:51 AM, Tails.9372 said:

It's not, people just act like they've never seen a LI build before. Others might be spitefull because "support mechanist exists". A common complaint was "I feel like its too strong" so basically a combination of "I don't use a DPS meter" and "core Tyria trash mobs die really fast to it".

I also like A-Nets response here: "We originally wanted to make power rifle mechanist more viable but screw it, now we want to disincentivize "passive gameplay" so let us nerf the mech AA and the AAR trait (both are nerfs which also hit / are going to hit builds that focus on more active gameplay pretty much just as hard)

This isn't really true. 

Outside mirage, which is another LI build people have wanted nerfed. 

Li builds aren't doing the dps power mech does and that's just factual. 37k on a li build should simply not exist, I'm not saying LI builds shouldn't exist. But there's supposed to be a trade off to them. 

The skill ceiling should never be a LI build. 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

and rifle 5 which with 800 units I'd consider a long range movement skill.

Rifle isnt a Mechanist weapon, so if  I use your reasoning, every engi spec have a long range mobility which negates the argument that Mechanist movement>Holosmith movement

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Yes, dps mechanist which CAN be altered to provide self quickness, alacrity, fury and might surpassing any other power build for open world on rifle.

Key word is SELF, as far as quickness mech goes.

To begin with there arent many power build for open world due to the lack of toughness so the competition here is already relatively small. But as far as power open world build goes, I havent seen a class able to do what a Bladesworn with ease, and that is mainly because Warrior can use a trait that makes its F1 crit regardless which ultimately remove the needs for precision.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Or it can be run as pure dps build where it outperformed or rivaled any other range power build pre nerf, now it rivals and/or slightly outperforms any other power build at 1,200 range.

Range build never had any relevance in 99% of the content. The DPS now is about on par with some LI build, but even before, Mukluk posted a LI Berserk build able to reach 39k,a Willbender build that can also reach 39k, same for Vindicator or a 35k Mirage AFK build. No one complained about those LI build and even today, they still fly under the radar.

 

[Tails.9372]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

This isn't really true.

Except that it is, the "AA only afk rifle spam" LI build everyone was up in arms about only did around 20-25K which already was less then what you can see from similar builds (e.g.: Unload spam with DE is at around 28k). The 37k you are talking about was not from a LI build.

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

a Willbender build that can also reach 39k

incorrect. LI Willbender he posted did 27k DPS. it did a Brief peak at 39k DPS.

5 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Mukluk posted a LI Berserk build able to reach 39k

Incorrect 25k it again burst peaked at 39k.

 

6 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

same for Vindicator or a 35k

29k DPS... with peaks of 40k. so again incorrect.

7 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

a 35k Mirage AFK build.

this is your only accurate statement.

 

Heres something to say to you:

The Actual builds. Peak at 60-80k DPS and Fall down to 40k. we Dont however go around saying these Speccs ARE 60-80k DPS. we accept Burst. means u Peak higher then normal at times throughout a fight. it doesnt consistently do these numbers. you can find this information if u go to ArcDPS And Click on someones names for additional Details. u will see full builds burst ALOT higher then 40k.

39k DPS Bursts are VERY SMALL.. and tbh in some cases... playing Full builds Badly will net u a higher peak. I.E a Ok-ish Played Harbinger can peak at like 56k pretty easily.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

37 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Rifle isnt a Mechanist weapon, so if  I use your reasoning, every engi spec have a long range mobility which negates the argument that Mechanist movement>Holosmith movement

The comparison was made between sword holo and power mech.

Given this thread was made likely in relation to the most recent rifle changes pushing p.mech above and beyond, I incorporated that change.

True, you could run rifle on holo. That does not magically extend your holo skills from range 600 to 1,200 though so kind of a moot point no?

Quote

Key word is SELF, as far as quickness mech goes.

To begin with there arent many power build for open world due to the lack of toughness so the competition here is already relatively small. But as far as power open world build goes, I havent seen a class able to do what a Bladesworn with ease, and that is mainly because Warrior can use a trait that makes its F1 crit regardless which ultimately remove the needs for precision.

Yes, bladesword is very powerful. That's why there are none more around atm. In fact warriors are barely visible atm.

As far as power builds, yes they are being overshadowed by condi builds for open world. Which makes it even more questionable when suddenly a power build emerges and dominates squads. If power was so behind condi, something about that build must be above and beyond all other power builds I'd say.

Quote

Range build never had any relevance in 99% of the content. The DPS now is about on par with some LI build, but even before, Mukluk posted a LI Berserk build able to reach 39k,a Willbender build that can also reach 39k, same for Vindicator or a 35k Mirage AFK build. No one complained about those LI build and even today, they still fly under the radar.

 

Yes, there used to be a balance between range and melee damage output with some extreme outliers like p.deadeye. None of those builds could self buff to the extent or with the ease that p.mech can. In fact most range power builds were limited to melee range due to boon range. That too changed.

As far as power builds or rather range power builds and top dps, virtuoso and p.mech are beyond most that we have seen with a far lower ease than any before.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Puck.3697]

11 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except that it is, the "AA only afk rifle spam" LI build everyone was up in arms about only did around 20-25K which already was less then what you can see from similar builds (e.g.: Unload spam with DE is at around 28k). The 37k you are talking about was not from a LI build.

ah oki i looked at wrong one

 

this is however the one im talking about. 34k DPS AFK Rotation guide. ^^

you see the problem?

Why should.. the NOT LI Form of this do 37k. but the LI form do 34k?.. ur saying playing ur Specc correctly. and learning it. minmaxing it and using everything possible.. should only put u infront by 3k DPS. NO IT SHOULDNT.

it quite litterally NEGATES THE SKILL CEILING.

you cant have this existing. there has to be a Larger gap between the 2.

LI builds shouldnt be sustaining DPS over 30k. i'd argue being above 25k is too much also, and i'd advocate for thsoe other LI builds being reduced slightly also, And before someone says "gatekeeping". nah. all content in the games doable with a 25k DPS output. most players in this game cant manage 15k and manage content.

we dont need LI builds this high, that was never their intended purpose and its ludicirous if u think from a outside point of view this looks anything more then a Absolute joke in potiental players eyes. cause it is, no other mmorpg would consider doing something like this.

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Fwog.9387]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This might be a surprise, but SC don't auto update their builds 2 minutes after a patch drops. It takes a while to incorporate new builds and post them.

They have to adjust for a fairly massive shift in the meta after banners and spot vanished, a change to fury and this is all before you account for class changes themselves. Additionally snow crows isn't simply a definitive guide for how a class must be played, but additionally what is being used. 

They have also been busy with Soo-Won i think. 

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

this is however the one im talking about. 34k DPS AFK Rotation guide. ^^

That's not the one people were talking about either as it requires both positioning and to constantly hit 7 additional buttons off CD which alredy kills the "AFK" part but the DPS for it is in line with other builds which require similar effort while some builds still give you more for less (either because they do more damage or because they also have some group support on top of it).

But if anything this shows that hitting your other skills is quite the DPS increase and debunks the claims that "hitting other skills is a DPS loss over just AAing" which I've seen more than enough.

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

LI builds shouldnt be sustaining DPS over 30k. i'd argue being above 25k is too much also, and i'd advocate for thsoe other LI builds being reduced slightly also, And before someone says "gatekeeping". nah. all content in the games doable with a 25k DPS output. most players in this game cant manage 15k and manage content.

Every DPS build which is also not a support hybrid and does less than 30k is essentially a non issue.

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

from a outside point of view this looks anything more then a Absolute joke in potiental players eyes

"Potential players from a outside point of view" don't even understand what they are looking at which many players that actually play the game also do not.

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

no other mmorpg would consider doing something like this

Like what? Endgame viable LI builds? That's pretty much common place, berserker type classes especially are usually braindead easy to play and are generally amongst the best DPS on top of it.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

That's not the one people were talking about either as it requires both positioning and to constantly hit 7 additional buttons off CD which alredy kills the "AFK" part but the DPS for it is in line with other builds which require similar effort while some builds still give you more for less (either because they do more damage or because they also have some group support on top of it).

But if anything this shows that hitting your other skills is quite the DPS increase and debunks the claims that "hitting other skills is a DPS loss over just AAing" which I've seen more than enough.

because auto attack arguments are kinda debunked

 heres a pretty recent post on the auto attacks achieved with every specc.. anyone who has any knowledge is very aware there were Speccs managing 20k DPS Onwards via auto attac krotations.

Power daredevil sword auto attack being a high example. 23.6k DPS.

however, that doesnt mean we agree they should have ever existed.

Im simply saying. Just because there are some screeching over the Wrong things. Doesnt mean it didnt need nerfing.

[Tails.9372]

49 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Just because there are some screeching over the Wrong things. Doesnt mean it didnt need nerfing.

That's pretty much exactly what it means as otherwise it wouldn't have been "the Wrong things". Also, for something to "need" a nerf there would have to be a reason for it and "top dps should require effort" is not a valid justification to nerf things which are already nowhere near "top DPS" at which point the actual reason why people want to see these builds nerfed becomes more something which is based on misconceptions (a player thinking that X is strong because he doesn't know where the actual ceiling is) or more along the lines of "I don't like it for unrelated reasons" / "I just don't like how that person is playing the game" which ofc. almost no one would say out loud which is why people start making up stuff about e.g. how "OP / problematic / [insert other buzzword here]" the thing in question supposedly is.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Fwog.9387]

Spend 5 minutes in any random pug or map meta and you very quickly learn most of the player base doesn't have the slightest clue how to play their classes but these same individuals are very quick to say when something is overpowered just because it performs better than them. 

[Duglaive.5236]

5 hours ago, Jaricko.6143 said:

Spend 5 minutes in any random pug or map meta and you very quickly learn most of the player base doesn't have the slightest clue how to play their classes but these same individuals are very quick to say when something is overpowered just because it performs better than them. 

The above post should be enshrined somewhere.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Duglaive.5236