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The main takeaway message from these 25-30k dps auto attack builds


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10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not denying it ... it just doesn't have a place in this discussion. The fact we have low intensity builds is actually not new either, along with the alienation from meta pushers. 

Again, the promotion of the LI builds is just an awakening of people that care based on the renewal of team instanced content from EoD. It's got NOTHING to do with how the 'current situation'. 

The alienation is not from meta pushers (whatever this means). The alienation is from players who enjoy playing 20 unbalanced specialisations that have no reason to exist in PVE because they either do the same or lower dps with much higher effort or provide significantly lower utility.

And in the past you could say: I'll take this other spec, it's suboptimal and I know I will do less damage than weaver for example even if I play to perfection, but at least my build is easier to play, I know it inside out and I know I can get decent results with it. Now you can't say that because Mech IS the easiest build available, does similar dps or higher in actual boss scenarios than many other builds that are much harder to play and provides a ton of utility.

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5 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

And in the past you could say: I'll take this other spec, it's suboptimal and I know I will do less damage than weaver for example even if I play to perfection, but at least my build is easier to play, I know it inside out and I know I can get decent results with it. Now you can't say that because Mech IS the easiest build available and provides a ton of utility.

People are going to play builds for different reasons; we aren't talking about the reasons people play whatever build they choose here. ... at least I'm not (which makes me wonder WTH you are replying to me).

My point here in this thread is simple: LI builds are being promoted now because some people realize they NEED to be because inclusivity is important for the health of endgame content. That promotion has got nothing to do with things that have existed since always, including alienation of non-meta build players OR the existence of these LI builds. 

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7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

People are going to play builds for different reasons; we aren't talking about the reasons people play whatever build they choose here. ... at least I'm not (which makes me wonder WTH you are replying to me). My point here in this thread is simple: LI builds are being promoted now because they NEED to be. It's got nothing to do with things that have existed since always. 

Promoting is fine, forcing a situation when half the players or more play those builds isn't and it's not the stated intent regarding LI builds (that they should be the only playable ones in any game mode). The stated intent is to have LI viable to clear things in raids, if the stated philosophy has changed and they are actually trying to make 20 specs irrelevant so that you NEED to play LI builds, then someone should let us know so that a lot more people quit now rather than hoping for something different and wasting 6 months just to reach the same conclusion.

Besides this is a choice, not a necessity, so it doesn't NEED to be this way.

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5 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Promoting is fine, forcing a situation when half the players or more play those builds isn't and it's not the stated intent regarding LI builds (that they should be the only playable ones in any game mode). The stated intent is to have LI viable to clear things in raids, if the stated philosophy has changed and they are actually trying to make 20 specs irrelevant so that you NEED to play LI builds, then someone should let us know so that a lot more people quit now rather than hoping for something different.

Besides this is a choice, not a necessity, so it doesn't NEED to be this way.

It's an important to recognize that the success of this endgame content requires people to be more inclusive, regardless of the state of balancing. Just blaming the game is a  rhetoric from ignorant players and a platform that unscrupulous people use to complain about how their classes work.

What REALLY matters is how people actually TREAT and INTERACT with each other. You don't build a community of end game content players by excluding players based on the builds they play. It's not necessary to play the optimal builds in this game to be successful. It's as simple as that. 

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2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's an important to recognize that the success of this endgame content requires people to be more inclusive, regardless of the state of balancing. Just blaming the game is a  rhetoric from ignorant players and a platform that unscrupulous people use to complain about how their classes work.

What REALLY matters is how people actually TREAT and INTERACT with each other. You don't build a community of end game content players by excluding players based on the builds they play. Simple as that. 

And what has this to do with class imbalance and 32k Mechanist 0 APM builds? Or are you seriously saying that this is the solution for inclusivity? Making everyone play 2 specs out of 27 and make sure it's impossible to differentiate among levels of skill by dumbing down everything?

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7 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

And what has this to do with class imbalance and 32k Mechanist 0 APM builds?

Nothing ... which I why I'm so confused you keep trying to talk to me about it. It wasn't the point I was EVER making here. I didn't even quote you in my first post in this thread anyways so ... 

Again, why are you trying to argue with me about something I'm OBVIOUSLY not going to engage with you about?

I mean, class imbalance ... another thing that isn't new. What do you want to talk about that hasn't already been done? Seems to me you just want to continually talk about things that have existed forever to add to the continuous stream of balancing complaints. OK you do that. I'm not interested. That's not my point here. 

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1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing ... which I why I'm so confused you keep trying to talk to me about it. It wasn't the point I was EVER making here. 

I added something to my previous post. But this thread is about the fact that autoattack builds on 1 specialisation are doing more damage that piano perfect rotations for other specialisations which guarantees that every single one of those is completely irrelevant and excluded from 'end game' content (if you can call raids or strikes that...). And here I thought you were championing inclusivity.

Any game with a permanent situation of 4-5 viable specs out 27 and 2-3 professions out of 9 is not going to survive. The idea that you should not be able to differentiate between levels of skill so that nobody is left out and you do this by making an autoattack build so OP (compared also to other autoattack and LI builds) is just asinine. Nobody really wants to play a game where you have to do literally nothing to kill endgame content except for people who physically cannot push buttons (in which case the question is why they would play a game like this in the first place).

When steam launches and you get a bunch of people picking up a class they like and so gearing and enjoying warrior, elementalist or revenant, what are you going to tell them once they are looking at end game content? Please reroll and play mechanist? 

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14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing ... which I why I'm so confused you keep trying to talk to me about it. It wasn't the point I was EVER making here. 

What is your solution btw? That every class does 32k dps with autoattacks and actually pushing buttons and using skills reduces your dps so you can't assess skill? Is this the brilliant solution to reduce toxicity and make sure people treat each other better?

What's next? You will remove mechanics and have every boss as a standing golem because if people fail mechanics and kill their party they will be kicked or told off?

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11 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

What is your solution btw? That every class does 32k dps with autoattacks and actually pushing buttons and using skills reduces your dps so you can't assess skill? Is this the brilliant solution to reduce toxicity and make sure people treat each other better?

What's next? You will remove mechanics and have every boss as a standing golem because if people fail mechanics and kill their party they will be kicked or told off?

I don't get what you are asking me here. What is the problem you are asking me to provide a solution for? I don't create the game you realize right? What I think should happen is irrelevant. Again, I'm not having an argument with you to support yet another complaint about balance. 

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10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get what you are asking me here. What is the problem you are asking me to provide a solution for? I don't create the game you realize right? What I think should happen is irrelevant. Again, I'm not having an argument with you to support yet another complaint about balance. 

Ok, let me ask you something simpler, then, see if you can answer that. Is the current class and specialisation distribution ok for 'endgame' content in your opinion? How long is the game going to survive in the current balance (with 3 professions having virtually no representation in endgame content) in your opinion? Is 32k damage on autoattack builds too low/high to further inclusivity in your opinion? Do all professions need to have at least one 32k dps autoattack build in your opinion?

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3 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

 

Ok, let me ask you something simpler, then, see if you can answer that. Is the current class and specialisation distribution ok for 'endgame' content in your opinion? How long is the game going to survive in the current balance (with 3 professions having virtually no representation in endgame content) in your opinion? Is 32k damage on autoattack builds too low/high to further inclusivity in your opinion? Do all professions need to have at least one 32k dps autoattack build in your opinion?

I don't get what my opinion of these has to do with the reality of the game and why people are promoting LI builds. What part of "I'm not going to discuss this with you" are you not understanding?

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16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get what my opinion of these has to do with the reality of the game and why people are promoting LI builds. What part of "I'm not going to discuss this with you" are you not understanding?

Lol why are you even here then? Do you need to hit a daily quota of inane messages on your way to 100k? Do you win a cookie when you get there or are you doing this for some other reason?

Promoting LI builds, in other words making them viable, has nothing to do with making Mechanist and only Mechanist doing 32k afk dps, basically more than many other highly paced optimised specs. LI specs (not 0 APM) doing decent to good dps, and definitely enough to clear raids, were widely available for nearly every profession before the patch as widely reported even by content creators.

Now since you don't want to discuss and you've made no reasonable or valid point in the last 10 comments, I fully expect not to see further replies from you. Goodbye.

 

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3 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Lol why are you even here then?

I told you why. The question is why you are asking me these questions that have NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about from the beginning. 

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I told you why. The question is why you are asking me these questions that have NOTHING to do with my post in the first place. 

It has to be the quota. Can't find another explanation for someone being so oblivious to what's being discussed in this thread, from the title to the OP and the discussion that followed.

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3 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

It has to be the quota. Can't find another explanation for someone being so oblivious to what's being discussed in this thread, from the title to the OP and the discussion that followed.

Or you just want to push your 'balance the game now' agenda by forcing people into discussions they aren't having because my point IS related to what this thread is about. I can't figure out why you even replied to me in the first place ... I didn't quote you. Just triggered that I kicked the soapbox from under you I guess?

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5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Or you just want to push your 'balance the game now' agenda because my post was related to what this thread is about. 

It's what you're talking about that has very little to do with this thread and that's why you think I'm talking about something else when I'm just continuing the discussion when you appear focused on going on a tangent peddling some other narrative about LI builds and inclusion. At this point I feel like I'm probably feeding a t..ll.

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8 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

It's what you're talking about that has very little to do with this thread 

Sure it's relevant to the thread. The fact that we have these LI builds exist and being promoted is Anet's way of saying "Hey guys, you need to acknowledge this is how the game works so there isn't a reason to be exclusive in teaming' and players saying "OK Anet we hear you, because we don't want endgame content to die like raids"

How is that NOT related to the thread? It's definitely NOT related to "BALANCE NOW PLX" complaints you are making. 

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22 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure it's relevant to the thread. The fact that we have these LI builds exist and being promoted is Anet's way of saying "Hey guys, you need to acknowledge this is how the game works so there isn't a reason to be exclusive in teaming' and players saying "OK Anet we hear you"

How is that NOT related to the thread? It's definitely NOT related to "BALANCE NOW PLX" complaints you are making. 

Why are you using quote marks and italics as if that's something ANet said when it's really your opinion on what you think ANet should have said? Mechanist was nerfed after 2 days and more nerfs are due, so having it do 32k dps on a golem with 0 APM was not part of any plan or vision, it was an oversight or a mistake they attempted to correct right away.

Newsflash for you since you keep harping about inclusion: kps are not going away, inclusion isn't going to massively change (and I disagree it was in a bad spot to begin with) and people will still get kicked for failing mechanics and wiping their party or for lying about their experience. Boosting 1 single profession to do 32k afk damage isn't going to change any of that either. Also experienced players are not required to carry bad or new players, but compared to other games of this kind, you'll find GW2 has always been significantly more inclusive. The only way for this to completely disappear is to have everyone do exactly the same damage all the time and turn raid bosses into static golems without mechanics. That would also solve a lot of issues for longtime raiders who would like to be able to cook, talk on the phone, work or watch tv while raiding...although I suspect most of them would simply not play such a game.

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41 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Newsflash for you since you keep harping about inclusion: kps are not going away, 

That's OK ... I don't think the goal is to make exclusive practices go away. No one is under any illusion that there will always be players that will still exclude potential team mates because they insist on optimal builds. Those players can contribute as little to the health of the game as they wish ... or even continue to damage it depending on how they decide to interact with people ... hey, it's THEIR endgame they are damaging doing it so. 🤷‍♂️

The goal is likely primarily educating people that aren't aware they don't need to be meta pushed so if they are kicked because they aren't playing meta builds, they know it's not a last resort and they have options. 

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2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The goal is likely primarily educating people that aren't aware they don't need to be meta pushed so if they are kicked because they aren't playing meta builds, they know it's not a last resort and they have options. 

Honestly this is also some bs. I've never seen people kicked because they play professions that are not meta (e.g. spellbreaker in raids or strikes). Never ever. People typically get kicked because THEY are toxic or they don't communicate when the LFG required it and the raid leader asked several times or, my favourite, because they are NEW players who are bad despite a build which is supposed to be meta AND they are also toxic giving suggestions or criticising others. I've had people who got kicked on the spot from the party and also from my guild for being obnoxious, not very good, but very keen to tell other people (who actually have world record runs in the content we were playing) what they should do. The typical behaviour of people in a pug where no kp was asked when others are underperforming is...to leave and find another group.

Maybe we have found the perfect role for you in-game: teacher of education and basic manners to players and specifically new players.

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2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The goal is likely primarily educating people that aren't aware they don't need to be meta pushed so if they are kicked because they aren't playing meta builds, they know it's not a last resort and they have options. 

99% parties will not kick anyone unless he is HORRIBLE( and even then if there is 1 or 2 slackers often they will be carried), nobody checks what rune u have or infusion. In real fights ppl often do around 10-15 k DPS and all is fine. It has nothing to do with meta. Recently i see people on rifle mechanists. They also most often die, since they took easy build but can't dodge. That's downside of easy build. When u have more buttons to press, u inevitably learn the game, and then perform better on any class. Giving new player op build with no learning, is taking joy of progression from them, making them get bored with game more quickly. Also, it will improve their performance in open world, but in hard content will do opposite 

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6 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Honestly this is also some bs. I've never seen people kicked because they play professions that are not meta (e.g. spellbreaker in raids or strikes). 

Well, you can believe whatever you want. Doesn't  mean it doesn't  happen

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5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, you can believe whatever you want. Doesn't  mean it doesn't  happen

I didn't present this as a fact, using even some quote marks for what Anet supposedly says. You did.

We can make a poll and see how many have seen people getting kicked because they were using a spec which is not meta, how many have seen people kicked for doing poor dps irrespective of build (note: I've seen multiple times people enquiring how others were doing less damage than autoattack damage without asking them to be kicked) and how many people are getting kicked for being toxic or running their mouth and ruining the experience for others.

Last time I kicked someone it was when I joined a guy who was alone on Arkk. When new players joined and we wiped a few times because of him failing mechanics he started bothering other people and it turned into an argument. One guy left and another started the kick vote. I didn't press and so the vote was pending for quite a while while we were in lfg, but the argument continued and I got whispers from the other fractal god (who wasn't arguing, but was fed up with the guy and is on my friend list as one of the best power alacrene I've played with) in the party that he and the other guy would leave if I didn't allow the kick l. So I did. The guy proceeded to whisper salty abuse to all 3 of us and allegedly he reported us for kicking him from his group after it took him 30+ minutes to get there (sic!).

This is why when I did T3 fractals where this kind of people are more common (i.e. people who are new, fail mechanics and think they should tell you how to play because they have read metabattle), I simply went ahead after 1 wipe and switched to utilities to SOLO the goddamn fractal, ignoring these players and their whining and blaming for their own shortcomings. Some I even blocked, but I haven't kicked anyone even if they were in fact toxic.

THIS is the reality, not some fairy tale that people get kicked for using a spec that isn't meta or doing subpar damage.

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3 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

I didn't present this as a fact, using even some quote marks for what Anet supposedly says. You did.

Yeah because people being kicked from teams for not using meta did and to some extent still does happen ... your personal experience that you never seen it doesn't invalidate that truth. 

But OK ... you're at the point where you just invent the narrative to argue with me. I can deal with that ... I've got lots of experience dealing with people like you. I'm just going to stick to my point and ask you why you are trying to impose a discussion about class balance on me. I'm clearly not having that discussion. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah because people being kicked from teams happens ... your personal experience that you never seen it doesn't invalidate that. 

Hence I proposed to make a poll, so we can see who is living in fantasyland between us.

Would these work for you? have you seen players getting kicked from a pve group because a) they were using a spec which is not meta; b) they were performing poorly or worse (both dps-wise, support-wise, not keeping boons up, mistiming aegis/barriers or stab or other roles like kiter, pusher etc); c) they did not communicate when that was a stated requirement for joining or failed to answer the party leader multiple times; d) they joined a group and failed to provide something requested in lfg (i.e. a specific class or kps); e)they were toxic or annoying in the chat. Multiple answers allowed

You happy with this, need to expand, is some of these points leading? I will guarantee e) will be significantly higher than any other option.

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