The main takeaway message from these 25-30k dps auto attack builds

[Tails.9372]

10 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Your point and the other guy's also is that pre-nerf rifle afk mechanist was doing 20-25k

Except I never said anything about how much you could get out of "rifle AA only" at max. Also, going back in the thread you're the only one here acting as if 25k was the upper bound of a scale. My point however was that "the around 25k "AFK AA only" numbers were with all important buffs / debuffs on the training golem" as opposed to your claim that rifle mech does 24-25k "unbuffed, no debuffs on the boss and no food".

But even if we just look at where the upper end of the "rifle AA spam" builds was then the best people were able to show was sill lower than the flamethrower AA video you posted earlier.

 

10 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

and nobody proved otherwise.

Meaning you couldn't even take down your own straw man.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kuma.1503]

4 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Not really, I have always and exclusively talked about mechanist, but you have preferred to try to muddle the water and try to paint me as someone having a problem with the changes to rifle in genearl, including holosmith/scrapper, when my beef is entirely and exclusively with the mechanist. Question for you, why do you think we didn't the same benchmarks and videos for rifle holo and scrapper for pve purposes? Because they weren't a problem. Mechanist was. And Mechanist is even more of a problem considering the utility it can bring in a pve setting.

The Mukluk's video was a honest mistake because I didn't watch it in its entirety and just went to the comments once it was clear it was just autoattacking unbuffed. The comments mentioned the 24k mark so I assumed it was unbuffed as the first part of the video was. This does not excuse your pathetic attempts to say that rifle is 8k dps below mace in a similar setting (32k v 24k) or 12k since you've been throwing around this 20k dps mark. Irony indeed, you couldn't make this stuff up.

We understand, you guys can keep whining and moaning that the bad non-engi players (and also holo/scrappers who don't like mechanist) are out for blood for no reason whatsoever, when every single normal person see the video of a mechanist doing literally 32k with just autoattacks and sees plenty of reasons why this is not balanced nor smart. But yeah, if you put your two great minds together, I'm sure sooner or later you will come up with a perfectly reasonable explanation on how mace afk was doing 32k, but rifle afk was doing 20k or 24k.

Just know that until you do, you have z.e.r.o. credibility. I would suggest a quantum theory explanation...and until then I will be here reminding everyone how you guys said mace was doing 32k and rifle 20k (or 24k in case of mr.whoeversay25kislying), so they can understand for themselves how full of it you two are.

Oookay. 

As fun as it would be to sling mud back and forth, I'm sure it's apparent to both of us that nothing productive is going to come of this conversation. You seem to have pivoted and are now intent on picking a fight with the engineer boards so I'll leave you to it. 

[Karagee.6830]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Oookay. 

As fun as it would be to sling mud back and forth, I'm sure it's apparent to both of us that nothing productive is going to come of this conversation. You seem to have pivoted and are now intent on picking a fight with the engineer boards so I'll leave you to it. 

You are still going for the strawman. Classic. I have nothing against holo and scrapper, don't lump mechanist together with them so that they won't nerf you because somehow nerfing mechanist would have an impact on the other specialisations as well.

Yeah, go on, go back to engi forums where you can happily make the case to buff rifle because it does 12k less dps than mace to like minded individuals and slander people applying common sense. Bye.

[Karagee.6830]

10 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except I never said anything about how much you could get out of "rifle AA only" at max. Also, going back in the thread you're the only one here acting as if 25k was the upper bound of a scale. My point however was that "the around 25k "AFK AA only" numbers were with all important buffs / debuffs on the training golem" as opposed to your claim that rifle mech does 24-25k "unbuffed, no debuffs on the boss and no food".

But even if we just look at where the upper end of the "rifle AA spam" builds was then the best people were able to show was sill lower than the flamethrower AA video you posted earlier.

 

Meaning you couldn't even take down your own straw man.

No, you said that people were either lying or clueless.

Now explain how mace did 32k (we all agree on this I hope, 31,953) and rifle 25k in your mind. I already explained what happened with mukluk's video and since I can't locate the logs from those 2 days, I had to change tactic. There is no strawman, only a different approach saying that established weapons for which we have the logs from those days were doing 32k dps (mace) and 30k+ (flamethrower), but you want us to believe that rifle was doing 25k in the same conditions (only autoattacks). Mukluk was almost certainly not optimised in terms of range, build and utilities.

Nobody is going to take you lot seriously until you prove rifle is 7k+ dps short compared to mace. Because all of this happened in the span of 2 days, we can't go out and replicate the benchmark numbers from then, but we can replicate the difference between mace and rifle, so we'll be waiting for your contribution for the mech cause.

You mechs will be getting more nerfs because you are delusional about the state of affairs and that is before we even begin to discuss why a spec with a ranged weapon doing 25k casually unoptimised dps just with autoattacks and a ton of utility has no place in the game. You have been found out and called out by the rest of the community, too bad you won't be able to p2w for much longer, but the hard truth is: you shouldn't have been put in this position to begin with.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Raizel.8175]

12 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Is it that hard to understand that literally "every" class can do over 20k dps 1111111 only with their top dps build BUT people in raid want around 30k or kick from the high level players group?

Erm... Care to provide some evidence?

12 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Do you seriously think now mecha in raid group use 11111 rifle spam and nothing else?

Well, of course not. That would be stupid. But Rifle Mechanist doesn't have to bother with finishing AA Chains like other builds. People apparently don't realize how strong that aspect is.

12 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

If so, why Virtuoso are more used or harbringer take space that from your talking are robbed from Mecha?

Virtuosu is strong. I do agree on that. But there are some caveats involved with the 36.5k benchmark. Harbingers DPS is susceptible to outside influences. For the key parts of your rotation, you have to manage 2 resources - Life Force and Blight - and your main DPS skills are melee and in Shroud. That's the reason why a lot of Necro-players returned to playing Scourge again since Scourges DPS is a lot less susceptible. Rifle Mechanist is literally just blasting away.

12 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

I did fractal with mecha after hot fix, was Alac mecha, but we had another alac in party, so, all happy to test the Rifle build and be a "good DPS", i switched (same build i used to do the test), and during the run, a person asked me if i was really using dps gear on my mecha........ cause my dps was lacking for him. And i was using the 1111111 build on anything that moved in the fractal, but for him, i was not using dps gear......

I still outdamage or am at least equal to strong DPS builds in fractal with my Rifle Mechanist as long as the instabilities favor pDPS builds. Care to tell us which instabilities you had during that day? NPNG alone literally cancels pDPS builds.

12 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

In August, Mecha will be nerfed again, so, make peace with the class, and play the class you are protecting crying against "the bad OP Mecha build" that was a lot stronger before patch 28/06 and hot fix 01/07 hit it.

???

12 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Is the exact same thing with guard, no matter what real proof you give about the DPS builds nerfed more than anything else by the patch and despite all that (with bencmark test to prove it), people continue to say "guard is OP after the patch", or "patch did nothing to guard build" and more.

Guardian is still OP. You deal very high damage with a rather easy rotation, have an insanely powerful toolkit and have access to very strong healing and boons. The reason why Guardian is so very powerful is that Core Guardian is already a well-rounded class with a lot of very valuable utility and DPS potential. That's helped by only relying on a single condition for DPS - unlike any other cDPS build.

 

11 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The general consensus from the Engi threads is that nerfs should be focused on Mechanist and not on rifle. Core engi prior to Rifle buffs lacked a good core power weapon. Rifle has been underperforming for a very long time as far as power weapons go, and post buff it's just decent. This is evidenced by the fact that Mechanist with flamethrower, mace, grenades ect. is able to bench higher than they can with rifle, with grenades obviously also being ranged and flamethrower being semi-ranged.

Current Rifle DPS has nothing to do with Mechanist traitlines though - that's just bonus damage. Rifle also isn't "just decent". It has high DPS and packs a lot of Utility (Jump Shot for movement, Blunderbuss for Might application, Net Shot and Overcharged Shot for CC and Overcharged Shot also for the removal of movement-impairing conditions). Calling that "just decent" is silly.

I don't mind Rifle being a good pDPS weapon for Engineer, but the current damage allocation is bad. Rifle AA needs a slight nerf and should be changed into an AA Chain while other Rifle skills can be buffed damage-wise. That way, Rifle Mechanist - and all other builds using Rifle - at least are more dependent on Alacrity and finishing AA Chains needs at least some skill.

[ThunderX.6591]

To Karagee, yesterday, i wrote a post with dps check data on golem with Mecha rifle and mace 1111111 build, and you talk (write posts) like you never see that post even if you yourself quoted it....

 

To Raizel, i will focus fast on the Guard part of your previous message before get to the rifle part.

For the guardian, i consider your knowledge ok, all around class, good basic, BUT all DPS build (FB, WB, DH) get totally nerfed with the 28/06 patch, i mean, they top their best dps around 32k on the golem (at least that was the dps people reached testing the class, maybee SC or other groups have done something better, if you know about it, post it, thx), where people consider decent dps at least 35k, so, on the dps part, they are totally subpar respect to many other classes and like i wrote in anonther post, Tempest as pure healer, is better than FB healer.

 

On the Rifle part, you know that "apart skill 1", nothing else was changed (they simple moved the skill around giving extra immobilize time and extra might to them), the core function stay the same, so if are "more than decent" now, they was "more than decent" before too (but noone talked about that before the patch, apart cry how bad rifle was).

And skill 1 damage now is literally the same damage (or less) of old 1 rifle (the extra attack give some more option on some "activation on hit effect", but nothing big, or i am sure, people would have talked about it by now).

For the Fractal, i was doing a 100CM (only the boss fight), i had the malus/bonus from being/not being near a party member, Frailty, but don't remember the last one.

[Karagee.6830]

2 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

To Karagee, yesterday, i wrote a post with dps check data on golem with Mecha rifle and mace 1111111 build, and you talk (write posts) like you never see that post even if you yourself quoted it....

 

To Raizel, i will focus fast on the Guard part of your previous message before get to the rifle part.

For the guardian, i consider your knowledge ok, all around class, good basic, BUT all DPS build (FB, WB, DH) get totally nerfed with the 28/06 patch, i mean, they top their best dps around 32k on the golem (at least that was the dps people reached testing the class, maybee SC or other groups have done something better, if you know about it, post it, thx), where people consider decent dps at least 35k, so, on the dps part, they are totally subpar respect to many other classes and like i wrote in anonther post, Tempest as pure healer, is better than FB healer.

 

On the Rifle part, you know that "apart skill 1", nothing else was changed (they simple moved the skill around giving extra immobilize time and extra might to them), the core function stay the same, so if are "more than decent" now, they was "more than decent" before too (but noone talked about that before the patch, apart cry how bad rifle was).

And skill 1 damage now is literally the same damage (or less) of old 1 rifle (the extra attack give some more option on some "activation on hit effect", but nothing big, or i am sure, people would have talked about it by now).

For the Fractal, i was doing a 100CM (only the boss fight), i had the malus/bonus from being/not being near a party member, Frailty, but don't remember the last one.

People who don't understand classes shouldn't be using benchmarks for anything, this is the simple truth. Mechanist and Firebrand are benching so low that raids are full of them also in dps roles (and obviously support too) while higher benchmark classes are virtually nonexistant: why do you think that is? Must be masochistic people handicapping themselves to make things more interesting.

Think about what you are saying for a second: you say FB and Mechanist have been nerfed, their damage on golem is very low and suddenly you have loads of people switching to FB and Mech dps for raids and strikes. And your reaction is...mechanist and fb are in a bad place as their benchmarks are down...

Edited July 9, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[ThunderX.6591]

2 Simple answers to Karagee questions/opinions.

1° Peoples need time to prepare a class for end game, you need to level up the class and elites, get some experience, prepare ascended equipment, and all that take time.

I don't think legendary items (who permit you to change stats and build on the go) are so popular, i think they are extremely rare even today, so, for prepare the right ascended, you need time.

Mecha come out with EOD, so around march. Give some months people set some bench, interest for a class come up in the community, community start preparing equipments and start using the class, for all that, at least some months are needed, and some months coincide with around June time, and the new patch come.

Now, after people spend months preparing a class, you seriously think that even with a nerf that hit bad the class, the normal player who get on the class for the easy way to use and get "moved on raid" with the implementation of "easy mode raid" take the class that is now subparr and bin it????

No, they continue to use it at least for the time to come and start searching the next easy class to use for the future.

2° AS you read on the post that explain the https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/117800-design-notes-for-june-28-professions-update/

on the part of the Catalist, you get why they nerfed it (became of the top DPS big margin the class get in raid from a trick to AA hammer in fire) and people explained that Catalist population was like 2% around, and that imply what elite people use, and what normal people that play the game (the totally majority of the player) don't use.

So, a Class ultra hard to play (piano skills) that have TOP dps higher than anyone else, and one who is easy to play (AA + some skills to help dps or little and easy rotation) with a decent dps that was just nerfed to lower dps considered subpar to the normal average dps just 1 week before, what do you think normal people would continue to play if they changed to it just recently? (obvious choice at least for me).

For FB, you need to specify Healer support FB (maybe you can add healer quickness FB), because the  dps part of guardians builds were nerfed to subpar dps more than any other class with the 28/06 patch.

[Kuma.1503]

4 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Current Rifle DPS has nothing to do with Mechanist traitlines though - that's just bonus damage. Rifle also isn't "just decent". It has high DPS and packs a lot of Utility (Jump Shot for movement, Blunderbuss for Might application, Net Shot and Overcharged Shot for CC and Overcharged Shot also for the removal of movement-impairing conditions). Calling that "just decent" is silly.

I don't mind Rifle being a good pDPS weapon for Engineer, but the current damage allocation is bad. Rifle AA needs a slight nerf and should be changed into an AA Chain while other Rifle skills can be buffed damage-wise. That way, Rifle Mechanist - and all other builds using Rifle - at least are more dependent on Alacrity and finishing AA Chains needs at least some skill.

These are some good points, I disagree with the first point and agree with the second in principal. 

(I had to delete this post because it was getting very long. I can talk about Engi at legnth so... Here's hoping I can keep things concise this time... Take two!)

Point 1: Reducing Rifle's Auto Attack

Rifle auto attack isn't that good. The reason it appears as if it is doing high damage is because of Aim Assisted Rocket. This trait got a massive buff. Reducing the range threshold allows us to stand close enough to proc traits like High Caliber. It lets us stack with the group while firing off our rockets, which means we won't miss out on boons. It allows us to deal with certain mechanics easier like Fractal Mai Trin's shadowstep. 

The reason why you mostly see rifle Mechanist is because Mech gets double value out of this trait! Both the Mech and the engi can fire the rockets, and this is where most of the damage comes from. If Anet reduced rifle AA, it wouldn't solve the problem, what you would most likely see is Flamethrower mech replacing Rifle Mechs. As a result, you could actually expect average Mech dps to increase because Flamethrower 1 does a good bit more damage than rifle. 

ANet has confirmed changes to Aim-Assisted rocket in August. It is unclear what they will be. But my bet is on either a flat nerf, or a targeted change at reducing its value on Mech. A higher ICD or less damage if you run it on Mechanist for example. Reducing the value of A-AR on Mechanist is more appropriate in my opinion. 

 

Point 2: Rifle should have an AA chain

If it didn't have one I would 100% agree with you. Thing is it does! You fire two bullets then an Explosive Grenade. It just happens very fast. 

This fact may sound like a blessing (and it is to an extent), it also makes it very easy to interrupt the chain if you are not paying attention. 

There was an undocumented change that added an aftercast to this skill and increased the tooltip casttime from 3/4 seconds to 1 second. This nerf is why rifle AA does less damage than kits currently... however 

It added a fun and skillful bit of gameplay where you can clip the aftercast with a skill of your choice. If you want to optimize your rifle gameplay, you want to let the chain complete, then time your use of skills so that it falls as early into the aftercast window as possible without canceling the explosive grenade. 

Quickness does not appear to reduce this aftercast delay so this remains relevant even with buffs. 

If Anet wanted to make this more skillful, they could reduce the coefficient of the initial two bullets and buff the damage of the explosive grenade, this would punish players more for firing off rifle skills thoughtlessly or missing the timing of their skills. 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Gajex.2386]

Y'all still argue over outdated or even fake logs? Who needs to create distraction from more pressing matters on purpose if the people find it themself...

[Obtena.7952]

The only thing happening here is that some players are FINALLY cluing into the fact that they need to be more inclusive for game modes they enjoy to thrive in this game. Therefore, these 'low effort' builds are finally being promoted as 'good' builds for players that aren't in the top 1% of performers.

Ironically, there have always been a few people trying to crush meta thinking because they understood being inclusive was NECESSARY for the game health. I guess they were right. 😉 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Karagee.6830]

5 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

2 Simple answers to Karagee questions/opinions.

1° Peoples need time to prepare a class for end game, you need to level up the class and elites, get some experience, prepare ascended equipment, and all that take time.

I don't think legendary items (who permit you to change stats and build on the go) are so popular, i think they are extremely rare even today, so, for prepare the right ascended, you need time.

Mecha come out with EOD, so around march. Give some months people set some bench, interest for a class come up in the community, community start preparing equipments and start using the class, for all that, at least some months are needed, and some months coincide with around June time, and the new patch come.

Now, after people spend months preparing a class, you seriously think that even with a nerf that hit bad the class, the normal player who get on the class for the easy way to use and get "moved on raid" with the implementation of "easy mode raid" take the class that is now subparr and bin it????

No, they continue to use it at least for the time to come and start searching the next easy class to use for the future.

2° AS you read on the post that explain the https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/117800-design-notes-for-june-28-professions-update/

on the part of the Catalist, you get why they nerfed it (became of the top DPS big margin the class get in raid from a trick to AA hammer in fire) and people explained that Catalist population was like 2% around, and that imply what elite people use, and what normal people that play the game (the totally majority of the player) don't use.

So, a Class ultra hard to play (piano skills) that have TOP dps higher than anyone else, and one who is easy to play (AA + some skills to help dps or little and easy rotation) with a decent dps that was just nerfed to lower dps considered subpar to the normal average dps just 1 week before, what do you think normal people would continue to play if they changed to it just recently? (obvious choice at least for me).

For FB, you need to specify Healer support FB (maybe you can add healer quickness FB), because the  dps part of guardians builds were nerfed to subpar dps more than any other class with the 28/06 patch.

Exactly you mechanist lovers are a bunch of people who like to have everything handed to them and chose this spec for how easy it is. And they play it because it requires no skill whatsoever and gets the job done. Basically there's dumbing down the game and then there's mech, there, all alone.

The Catalyst nerf just shows that balanceman and his great overlord josh davis, or whatever his name is, have no clue what they are doing. They just needed to adjust one or 2 things so that stacking catalysts wouldn't matter and poof the speedrunners would have moved to something else.

Regarding fb: qfb still does more damage than many other pure dps specialisations in an actual fight. Cfb rotation is easy and at least 2 of the utilities can be flipped to provide help for the encounter via stability, reflections or whatever. Firebrand has been around for a long time, now I suppose you are going to tell us that people playing fb exponentially increased with EOD, when people with just that expansion can't play it? 25% a raid comp on average is composed of firebrands after the patch. That's 2.5 people out of 10 in a group....and you don't need 3 firebrands ro provide quickness to the whole party....

[Karagee.6830]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The only thing happening here is that some players are FINALLY cluing into the fact that they need to be more inclusive for game modes they enjoy to thrive in this game. Therefore, these 'low effort' builds are finally being promoted as 'good' builds for players that aren't in the top 1% of performers.

Ironically, there have always been a few people trying to crush meta thinking because they understood being inclusive was NECESSARY for the game health. I guess they were right. 😉 

They are wrong because making 2 specs out of 27 completely OP in PVE will just alienate a lot more people than forcing people to press 2 buttons instead of no buttons.

sPVP is in a similar predicament, just not as bad, because for all the screaming, willbenders and harbingers in pvp are not used by 40% of players...

And mechanist after the 30/6 nerf, will now keep getting nerfed exactly because of this. I'll get my popcorns ready for the salt when that happens again and again. I guess I am like balanceman, oh dear.

[itspomf.9523]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:40 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

These kinds of 1-2 button builds are nothing new and have existed before with firebrand, power rev, deadeye, reaper etc. The main takeaway should be that dumbing down classes has done nothing to make challenging content easier for new and casual players. Some people are still doing 5-10k dps on these builds because they are struggling with other parts of combat. They arent able to attack and move at the same time, they dont realize when their projectile attacks are obstructed or out of range, they dont dodge big telegraphed attacks and spend a lot of time in downstate, they dont know or dont care to gear their character properly, and the list goes on.

So no, dumbing down combat has done nothing to fulfill anets vision of making the game more accessible and should never be an excuse for the current design philosophy.

 

It's almost like the game completely lacks the intuitive and immersive tutorial that came with the original leveling progress, "unlocked" weapon skills, and natural progression into traits starting at Lv.10, rather than putting specializations off until set plateaus far later in the game.

 

It's almost like GW2 has done precious little to actually explain how to succeed at the game, when the disparity between an unranked mob encounter and a veteran can often itself be a cliff to new players, nevermind their first champion fight.

 

It's almost like, instead of trying to "raise the skill floor," we should have invested in properly teaching players how fundamental aspects of the game work, like skills, equipment, telegraphs, and movement.

 

But nah, buff mechanist.  At least then they don't have to worry about any of that, right?

[Karagee.6830]

5 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

If Anet wanted to make this more skillful, they could reduce the coefficient of the initial two bullets and buff the damage of the explosive grenade, this would punish players more for firing off rifle skills thoughtlessly or missing the timing of their skills. 

 

And guess who isn't going to be affected by this skill rewarding change? 11111111111111 players. So what's going to happen when they start pressing some button and interrupting the AA chain? They will see no tangible benefit and go back to autoattacks. Complexity goes completely against the spec design.

Yes nerf AAR and when 0 APM mech does far less than 25k in every single setup, including kit and mace we'll talk. 20k dps by doing literally nothing but moving around is sufficient to kill every normal content in the game.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, fluffdragon.1523 said:

 

It's almost like the game completely lacks the intuitive and immersive tutorial that came with the original leveling progress, "unlocked" weapon skills, and natural progression into traits starting at Lv.10, rather than putting specializations off until set plateaus far later in the game.

 

It's almost like GW2 has done precious little to actually explain how to succeed at the game, when the disparity between an unranked mob encounter and a veteran can often itself be a cliff to new players, nevermind their first champion fight.

 

It's almost like, instead of trying to "raise the skill floor," we should have invested in properly teaching players how fundamental aspects of the game work, like skills, equipment, telegraphs, and movement.

 

But nah, buff mechanist.  At least then they don't have to worry about any of that, right?

It's tangentially related to the topic but you know what a good place would be to implement this kind of change? Dungeons.

If I were Anet I would weave these into the personal story. Make a seperate solo instance that you go through with NPCs. Each dungeon can focus on a specific mechanic and throw it at you in a variety of ways. 

In catacombs you may have to dodge circles on the floor

In Twilight Arbor you may have to stack/spread with NPCs to avoid fatal damage

In Caudicus Manner they'd rework True Stun-lock Seamus into a fight focused on LoS'ing his main attack. If you fail it you take a huge chunk of damage and a knockdown. Focus this dungeon on strategic use of corners and terrain. 

Add some achievements to that reward players when they do the mechanics perfectly, maybe give players some flashy skin if they manage to complete all the dungeon achievements. This would require ANet to go back and polish the old content which they've needed to do for a long time anyway. 

Just a thought. 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

They are wrong because making 2 specs out of 27 completely OP in PVE will just alienate a lot more people than forcing people to press 2 buttons instead of no buttons.

sPVP is in a similar predicament, just not as bad, because for all the screaming, willbenders and harbingers in pvp are not used by 40% of players...

And mechanist after the 30/6 nerf, will now keep getting nerfed exactly because of this. I'll get my popcorns ready for the salt when that happens again and again. I guess I am like balanceman, oh dear.

They aren't wrong because the number of specs that are OPed in PVE was ALREADY alienating since team content has existed in this game. People who promote and even restrict themselves (and others) to meta as THE way to play is an exclusive practice that kills their favoured game modes, regardless of the number of specs that are completely OP in PVE. 

I mean, there isn't any recent change that all the sudden makes this alienation ... we've always had it. The difference here is ... some people are astute enough to recognize the impact it has had on the game in the past and don't want to see that happen AGAIN. The irony is that this alienation never had to happen in the first place because the game has never been designed to require players to achieve top level performance to be successful in the first place. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Karagee.6830]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

They aren't wrong because the number of specs that are OPed in PVE was ALREADY alienating since team content has existed in this game. People who promote and even restrict themselves (and others) to meta as THE way to play is an exclusive practice that kills their favoured game modes, regardless of the number of specs that are completely OP in PVE. 

I mean, there isn't any recent change that all the sudden makes this alienation ... we've always had it. The difference here is ... some people are astute enough to recognize the impact it has had on the game in the past and don't want to see that happen AGAIN. The irony is that this alienation never had to happen in the first place because the game has never been designed to require players to achieve top level performance to be successful in the first place. 

There has never been a time when logs showed 50% of raid parties on average being filled by 7% of the available elite specs. Until the 28/6/22 patch that shoved mechanist and firebrand down everyone's throat. So even if what you say is partially true, this is clearly and by far the all time low for GW2 in this respect.

Don't make the rookie mistake of using theoretical meta compositions, like the ignorant people at ANet: use the actual average composition numbers which reflect the average skill of players. Nobody cares if stacking catalysts is the meta when only 0.02% of parties can and will use that strategy: when this was meta, we had a much much larger specialisation spread, because that reflects the reality of what is achievable by average players given the state of each specialisation at any given time. When specs are balanced for the average player, you see the spread as doing 1-2k dps more or less in a raid encounter is going to be immaterial and so you will take the spec you like the best or you can get the most out of. The actual situation right now is the exact opposite and it's not because some spec does 10k more dps than any other, but because 2 spec do comparable dps with significantly lower effort and bringing a lot more utility to their party largely for free.

I rest my case. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Raizel.8175]

29 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

There has never been a time when logs showed 50% of raid parties on average being filled by 7% of the available elite specs. Until the 28/6/22 patch that shoved mechanist and firebrand down everyone's throat.

Well, there has been Scourge stacking when Epidemic was still strong and especially when you were still able to bounce Epidemic efficiently. I have to agree though that diversity took a huge hit with this patch. Pre-Patch, we probably had the most diverse META we've ever had. That's kinda dead now.

[Zaret.1450]

its curious, theres people complaining about rotations and how toxic the raid comunity is forcing them to do a decent rotation, amd here we are, we toxic players, thinking about the 2 buttons 30k builds that are swarming us XD.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

There has never been a time when logs showed 50% of raid parties on average being filled by 7% of the available elite specs. Until the 28/6/22 patch that shoved mechanist and firebrand down everyone's throat. So even if what you say is partially true, this is clearly and by far the all time low for GW2 in this respect.

Don't make the rookie mistake of using theoretical meta compositions, like the ignorant people at ANet: use the actual average composition numbers which reflect the average skill of players. Nobody cares if stacking catalysts is the meta when only 0.02% of parties can and will use that strategy: when this was meta, we had a much much larger specialisation spread, because that reflects the reality of what is achievable by average players given the state of each specialisation at any given time. When specs are balanced for the average player, you see the spread as doing 1-2k dps more or less in a raid encounter is going to be immaterial and so you will take the spec you like the best or you can get the most out of. The actual situation right now is the exact opposite and it's not because some spec does 10k more dps than any other, but because 2 spec do comparable dps with significantly lower effort and bringing a lot more utility to their party largely for free.

I rest my case. 

The logs don't change the fact that this situation isn't new (it's not even the all time low either!!). In fact there have been times in the past it's been WORSE than it is now ... looking at you Ele's in dungeon content. Alienation has ALWAYS existed in this game because of optimal specs that make up the meta. What I'm saying is true '

OP'ed specs to some degree have ALWAYS resulted in alienation. The current promotion of low intensity specs has nothing to do with that fact. You just want to use this new promotion as a way to complain about the current meta. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Karagee.6830]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The logs don't change the fact that this situation isn't new. In fact there have been times in the past it's been WORSE than it is now. Alienation has ALWAYS existed in this game because of optimal specs that make up the meta. What I'm saying is true '

OP'ed specs to some degree have ALWAYS resulted in alienation. The current promotion of low intensity specs has nothing to do with that fact. 

Ok I'll bite. When has the situation been 7% of the playable elite specs take 40%-50% of the slots in your average raid party? To even get a tandem of 2 professions clearing 40% of the spots on average, you need to go back to 2017 pre PoF (druid and berserker) when you had a grand total of...9 elite specialisations...

Edited July 10, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Ok I'll bite. When has the situation been 7% of the playable elite specs take 40%-50% of the slots in your average raid party? To even get 2 professions clearing 40% you need to go back to 2017 pre PoF when you had a grand total of...9 elite specialisations...

I don't know what you are biting on. I'm not planning to have an argument about numbers on graphs over time ... so don't even bother. They don't change the facts of what I'm telling you here.

I'm telling you that alienation because of elite specs is NOT NEW ... so the new promotion of low intensity builds has NOTHING to do with people alienated because of them. The reason these low intensity builds are being promoted at this time is basically because there are people that care about the health of the game and understand that being inclusive is important to that.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Karagee.6830]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't know what you are biting on. I'm not planning to have an argument about numbers on graphs. I'm telling you that alienation because of elite specs is NOT NEW ... so the new promotion of low intensity builds has NOTHING to do with people alienated because of them. 

Yeah it's a double whammy of lunacy: not only the concentration of players on 2 specs, firebrand and mechanist, is the highest ever, but they are also braindead (mech) and easy builds to play. And yes the situation is fundamentally different from berserker+druid taking 40% of slots before PoF as removing uniqueness directly leads to compression towards the builds which have the highest ratio of dps+utility/difficulty. So in an arena where unique buffs are now no longer available and every specialisation should be directly comparable and viable, you have 2 specialisations that are clearly unbalanced. The exact opposite of the stated intent of promoting class diversity by removing unique buffs. Ironic isn't it?

Still I don't see the point of denying the situation is worse than it's ever been when the data plainly shows that.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Still I don't see the point of denying the situation is worse than it's ever been when the data plainly shows that.

I'm not denying it ... it just doesn't have a place in this discussion. The fact we have low intensity builds is actually not new either, along with the alienation from meta pushers. 

Again, the promotion of the LI builds is just an awakening of people that care about the game based on the renewal of team instanced content from EoD. It's got NOTHING to do with how the 'current situation'. The meta pusher way ... that DIDN'T work. Something new has to happen and it has to be from players. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952