Suggestions to make heal Mesmer viable

[Tyse the Black.6789]

Mesmer is kinda close yet still so far away from being able to be a viable healer, which is kinda disappointing!

 

I've played many many hours on Mesmer in all game modes HOWEVER these are only suggestions and are meant to start a discussion more than anything. There are lots of other super knowledgeable Mesmer mains. I *think* this could give a core support line that would work with each elite spec even if only a little bit with virt with the whole no boons thing. My intention is just to try to shift things around as much as possible rather than reinventing the wheel altogether and I'm curious what people think! I'm mostly focused on the Inspiration trait line and related skills but first...

 

Rework Bountiful Disillusionment to share boons, or at least might and fury on shatter. Remove the self-stab and maybe reduce the CD on the stab mantra to compensate. If staff boons need to be culled to make room for this then so be it. Alac Mirage doesn't get much value from Chaotic Interruption so they could trait into Bountiful Disillusionment to make up any might and fury nerfs on staff 1. This would also give alac mirage imo a more interesting and challenging rotation if shatters were sometimes required. It also feels weird taking staff trying to run heal chrono with feeling like you have to swap back to shield for your key boons that you've traited into and losing might and fury as a result.

Remove Signet of Inspiration, instead giving boon extension with a new elite skill to compensate for Mesmer's weak elite skill choices. The new skill would be Mantra of Inspiration for boon extension and additional mantra heal synergy with Restorative Mantras. Because it's in the elite skill slot, the boon duration could actually be meaningful 5s extension on a 30s charge recharge maybe? 40s recharge? Idk lol I quit math years ago. However the math works out, I would love to see the balance point being that boon builds require SOME investment in concentration without Mantra of Inspiration, but when taking that elite 100% boon uptime is possible without investing in concentration. Would trade Time Warp for this any day.

 

So as to not kill the signet-aegis share Blurred Inscriptions playstyle maybe a new signet? I've not thought much about this, but for the sake of completeness I'd offer Signet of Speed: Passive: Superspeed every 10 seconds Active: Break Stun + Remove movement impairing conditions Traited in Blurred Inscriptions: AoE Stunbreak (though this might require that the personal stun break be removed from the stab mantra!)

And now for the inspiration trait line!

 

Remove Mental Defender, Illusionary Inspiration, Healing Prism and Restorative Illusions. Mental Defender is useless, Illusionary Inspiration is as mechanically interesting as a minor trait and Healing Prism makes Condi heal stats feel like a wasted investment because of the pretty substantial power-> healing power conversion. Something like Restorative Illusions should be a grandmaster (see below).

 

In place of Healing Prism, put Illusionary Regeneration: Summoning an illusion gives nearby allies regeneration (maybe 2.5s per illusion but scaling with boon duration? again math idk) I'm thinking regen over flat healing so that mirage can still heal through clone gen with deceptions but so as to not just give massive bursts of healing.

 

In place of Illusionary Inspiration, Shattering Inspiration. Which is like Restorative Illusions, but AoE healing on shatter instead of self-healing only. I'd also reduce the condi cleanse to just 1 cleanse when shattering regardless of how many clones and instead having the minor trait, Mender's Purity remove 2 conditions rather than 1.

 

In place of Restorative Illusions, Mental Fortitude: Give protection (+maybe more?) to nearby allies when you block or dodge an attack (4s protection on a 15s cd? again that math idk about but this is moreso about the vibe)

 

In place of Mental Defender, Bountiful Phantasms: Phantasms used when targeting an ally will heal or barrier that ally and/or apply a boon. 

 

Then finally, replace sympathetic visage with something for the offensive supports who spec into inspiration. I've got nothing for this, but I'm thinking about Bountiful Phantasms above and potential offensive support synergy when traited into Chronophantasma and as a way of honouring something that I really love about Mesmer: that skills can be used offensively or defensively and are highly adaptable to different situations.

 

And then...

 

Chrono: replace Alls Well that Ends Well with Time Heals All Wounds: Applying Alacrity or Quickness to allies also applies regeneration (at half duration? one third duration? 1.5s of regen? again, vibes > maths). Move Time Heals All Wounds to where Improved Alacrity is. Move Improved alacrity to where the minor trait, flow of time is and then move flow of time to where Alls Well that Ends Well was. Balance each trait for it's new place. The concern here is that chrono would get lots of self-sustain from Time Heals All Wounds, but maybe that's not a concern given chrono is usually kinda squishy in competitive now.

 

Mirage: IF the might changes above are implemented and staff's might application is nerfed, have the staff ambush apply regen, protection or resolution similarly to how the Specter's boon well applies boons in a certain order.

 

LMK what y'all think but pls be nice 🙂

 

 

[Ellon.4316]

First of, cool to see someone else looking at a healing build for mesmer, however i quite disagree with some of your suggestions. Looking at your suggestions i am assuming you are testing with a condi mirage with staff and mantra's are your main source of healing. Myself have been testing with chrono greatsword in full harier gear (power, healing, concentration) and the main source of healing is the "illusionary inspiration" trait.

Now reading your suggested changes I'm going to be blunt, for heal chrono those are some really big nerfs your suggesting. For the numbers i will ignore outgoing heal modifiers just to keep it a bit simpler.

Illusionary inspiration
You suggest to remove this skill but in all my testing this is one of the strongest heal skill mesmer has. It outperforms mantra healing and it outperforms healing with wells most of the time. The main heal skill being greatsword 4 which summons two phantasms (when traited) and two clones on a 8 second cooldown (with traited chrono alacrity). Combined with greatsword 2 (3.33 second cooldown) chrono can summon 6 illusions consistently every 8 seconds without any utility skills or weapon swapping!

In short that is a healing output of 6 * 646 every 8 seconds, or an average of 484 per second. Regeneration at the same healing power ticks for 310 each second. So dropping "illusionary inspiration" and replacing it with a source of regen will nerf the healing output of mesmer quite a lot!

Changing this to shatter will probably nerf the healing output, it needs to heal a lot to compare with illusionary inspiration. More importantly you lock yourself to shatters and with only greatsword i'm already summoning so many clones i cant keep up with the shattering. So this will result in overall less healing and also more time between heals, in my opinion a nerf.

Illusionary inspiration might be boring but it totally deserves the grandmaster status because when specced/geared properly that trait heals big time.

Healing prism
With harrier gear this trait rocks. You get an additional 300 healing power just for picking inspiration. Dropping that will again nerf heal chrono. I agree with changing this to regen instead of a flat heal. Regen has it's place when you or others need to move because of mechanics.

Restorative illusions/mental fortitude
I agree that restorative illusions is a bit of a useless trait. I like the idea of having it give protection but i disagree with the method. I would suggest this gives protection when shattering. This way you can decide to proc protection right before the enemies big hit, if you proc it after a block/dodge the rest of the party will still get full damage.

Currently you could also look at shield 4, this summons a phantasm (after a channel...) that in full harriers gives about 4 seconds of protection. When you block an attack you get to use the skill again. That is 8 seconds of protection on a 20 second cooldown (again chrono alacrity). The only big downside is that you spend a few seconds channeling a skill. On the other hand, it also heals for 4*646 with illusionary inspiration 😉

Alls well that ends well
Agree that this trait needs reworking. I would love to see this changed to proc 1 second of regen on the first pulse, 2 seconds on the second and 3 on the third. This would still incentivize people to stay in the well but your not punished that much for moving outside of the well.

Or when "healing prism" provides regen it would be better if it provides barrier with each pulse. I like the idea of a timelord spec providing a barrier to prevent damage in the future.

New mantra elite that helps with boons
Yes please 🙂 

Chaos traitline in general
I'm all for additional boon sharing options.

In short
If you want to play heal mesmer at the moment power chrono is the way to go, heals more then any other spec, it syncs better with current traits and "well of precognition" is a great source of aegis. Your also able to chose between alac or quickness making the build really flexible.

In the mesmer wishlist tread i suggested changing greatsword 3 to be a "blast finisher", i think that is a big change needed for heal mesmer to really become viable. With wells that means group-wide 3 second chaos armor on a 6.6 second cooldown. Chaos armor provides regen/protection and swiftness so it fills in most of the things heal mesmer is currently lacking.

Finally, i think it is really cool to see someone else focusing on heal mesmer 🙂

 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Ellon.4316
As pointed out below traited alacrity isn't a 50% recharge reduction so i updated the cooldown numbers in this post.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

14 minutes ago, Ellon.4316 said:

The main heal skill being greatsword 4 which summons two phantasms (when traited) and two clones on a 6 second cooldown (with traited chrono alacrity). Combined with greatsword 2 (2.5 second cooldown) chrono can summon 6 illusions consistently every 6 seconds without any utility skills or weapon swapping!

In short that is a healing output of 6 * 646 every 6 seconds, or an average of 646 per second. Regeneration at the same healing power ticks for 310 each second. So dropping "illusionary inspiration" and replacing it with a source of regen will nerf the healing output of mesmer by over 50%!

reminder that improved alacrity does not reduce cds to 50%, but to 66.67% (2/3)

1/1 = 100% (no alac)

1/1.25 = 80% (normal alac)

1/1.5 = 66.67% (2/3) (improved alac)

phantasmal berserkers cd should be 8s minimum

[Tyse the Black.6789]

On 7/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, Ellon.4316 said:

Looking at your suggestions i am assuming you are testing with a condi mirage with staff and mantra's are your main source of healing. Myself have been testing with chrono greatsword in full harier gear (power, healing, concentration) and the main source of healing is the "illusionary inspiration" trait.

I'm one of those huge nerds with full legendary (except for Spear) and a group of casual but experienced friends who encourage experimentation so I test *lots*... probably too much tbh lol.

I think a big part of my issue is how staff is so necessary to keep up might and fury on all the possible builds that it feels like an oops to weapon swap.  Seraph/Plaguedoc/Shaman with Staff Mirage healing doesn't work unless your group is near perfect every time. It heals much better with Harrier and dps is roughly comparable to with the more condi focused sets. 

My fantasy is a Seraph/Cele/Marshall (etc.) Chrono, but would also love staff mirage healer to be a little better.
 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, Ellon.4316 said:

Illusionary inspiration
You suggest to remove this skill but in all my testing this is one of the strongest heal skill mesmer has. [Paraphrase: Traited GS 4 does big heals @ average of 484/s] replacing it with a source of regen will nerf the healing output of mesmer quite a lot!

...

Illusionary inspiration might be boring but it totally deserves the grandmaster status because when specced/geared properly that trait heals big time.

 

My issue with II is that it requires so much traiting elsewhere to support being able to heal well. I've tried what you're saying with GS, but then can't keep fury up on group without taking staff or speccing into dueling and then taking clone-on-dodge. I'm especially thinking about how guardian can just trait into 1 trait to get healing on dodge. They could add fury to GS somehow, but this would be a *disaster* in PvP/WvW... People would QQ so hard about 1-shot Prismatic Understanding power virtuoso lol. I play all game mode and find the splits really frustrating so I don't think I'd be tickled by that change.

 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, Ellon.4316 said:

Healing prism
With harrier gear this trait rocks. You get an additional 300 healing power just for picking inspiration. Dropping that will again nerf heal chrono. I agree with changing this to regen instead of a flat heal. Regen has it's place when you or others need to move because of mechanics.

 

I hear that it's great with harrier, but it doesn't feel great to have a mandatory trait in the line closing off build possibilities.  I think in all my fussing I may have deleted this from my original post, but I did at one point have to increase healing modifiers so it's as if they give an output roughly comparable to 150 healing power to all stat sets on the other traits in the inspiration line to compensate... I may have decided it was too much math lol. 
 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, Ellon.4316 said:

Restorative illusions/mental fortitude
I agree that restorative illusions is a bit of a useless trait. I like the idea of having it give protection but i disagree with the method. I would suggest this gives protection when shattering. This way you can decide to proc protection right before the enemies big hit, if you proc it after a block/dodge the rest of the party will still get full damage.

 

 

I hear this- however I think that improving access to regen behind the protection + burst heals on shatters and mantras it would be ok. I think it's also important that shatters not do too many things all at once and that the other skills are also useful.
 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, Ellon.4316 said:

Finally, I think it is really cool to see someone else focusing on heal mesmer 🙂

 

Love this energy!! Thank you for your awesome ideas and for being so cool 🙂 Hopefully they take a look at some of the pieces that people offer so that we get something workable. 

[Xaylin.1860]

There are some things I'd like to point out. Maybe others have mentioned it already. But it it's late and I've switched devices while reading the thread. So my bad in case it was pointed out earlier.

Since traitlines were reworked in 2015 there have been many changes which let to some traits not making sense anymore or missing their original synergies. It is not like Mesmers were great healers back then but the original set up was way more sound than it is nowadays. Just to mention a few that are mostly healing related:

• Restorative Mantras was on preparing the Mantras. Which means that the trait is actually stronger nowadays. Unless you have spammed MoP back then. I think the trait overall is fine as it is. However, it does indeed not make sense that nowadays the well trait also heals. Just one of the changes ANet made at some point to get rid of Alacrity and never revisited.
• Healing Prism actually healed a flat amount without CD which was nerfed quite fast due to an interaction with Vampiric Presence that caused havoc in PvP.
• Illusionary Inspiration actually granted pulsing Regeneration on Phantasms back then. However, this was before the Phantasm rework. Personally, I prefer the current iteration and as others pointed out, it is actually quite strong - especially with Chronophantasma. Additionally, Regeneration is now more integral to Chaos than Inspiration. If more was added, it should be there. Or on an e-spec.

When talking about Inspiration in general, not looking at it from a pure healing perspective, I do believe the biggest issue being the amount of Utility related traits in this line. It is host to the Mantra, Signet and the only remaining Glamour trait. Additionally, Inspiration is kinda hold hostage by Blurred Inscriptions in general although it is less severe since SoI got nerfed. Regardless, group Aegis is still stronger than some healing on Illusion cast in most dangerous situations. This issue isn't easy to solve but I do believe that this one will keep people from going full healing unless you overbuff healing capabilities. Now, when it comes to healing, I think there are some easy options to buff Mesmers a bit without buffing other roles too much.

• One would be reducing the ICD on Healing Prism or making it work more like Medical Dispersion to increase its synergy with your Heal or Restorative Illusions. ANet could also change the Power to HP conversion back to an effect more similar to Compounding Power as it was initially etc. (e.g. +2.5% outgoing healing buff when summoning an Illusion). Personally, I don't like the Power to HP conversion because it excludes condition builds.
• Another one would just be making Restorative Illusions also affect your allies - at least the healing part. I mean... why not? Doesn't always have to be super complicated.

For the other traits: The top line is actually still fine conceptually from a competitive perspective (reflecting or countering your enemy to protect your allies). If pDisenchanter wasn't nerfed that hard on the Taunt-part and the rework for pWarden being so aweful... Ironically, this idea - yet again - competes with Blurred Inscriptions due to the Aegis sharing. The original bottom line is basically non-existent anymore which is why the traits feel so weird. It will require way more work to clean it up than just fine tuning some numbers. Again, Blurred Inscriptions being the elephant in the room.

 

1 hour ago, Tyse the Black.6789 said:

My issue with II is that it requires so much traiting elsewhere to support being able to heal well. I've tried what you're saying with GS, but then can't keep fury up on group without taking staff or speccing into dueling and then taking clone-on-dodge.

 

Isn't the Fury uptime highly unreliable to begin with?

[Ellon.4316]

19 hours ago, Tyse the Black.6789 said:

My issue with II is that it requires so much traiting elsewhere to support being able to heal well. I've tried what you're saying with GS, but then can't keep fury up on group without taking staff or speccing into dueling and then taking clone-on-dodge. I'm especially thinking about how guardian can just trait into 1 trait to get healing on dodge.

Agree that it is a bit of a pain to setup. As inspiration chrono there is not really a good third trait line to chose, it's either:

- Domination for an extra phantasm

- Dueling for that clone on dodge (and fury but with harriers i dont crit that often. But allows for build crafting)

- Chaos for chaos storm on heal and additional concentration. Last one being dependent on regen which is not the easiest to get as a mesmer.

 

So there are always a lot of "dead traits" when it comes to a pure support role. If however bountiful disillusionment gets reverted back to sharing boons that would help immensely.

 

Also dont get me started on guardian/firebrand, just comparing mantra's between mesmer and firebrand is just sad. For example: Mantra of lore vs Mantra of resolve. Both remove conditions, 2 for firebrand and 3 for mesmer. The difference being that firebrand has 12 second recharge rate vs 24 on mesmer and the firebrand version also applies regen just cause, oh it also has an extra charge. Sure it's an support focussed spec but sometimes it feels like support mesmer needs to scavenge every single boon from a different traitline or skill while the meta supports specs just get them. Luckily mesmers support spec (chrono) has 3 different flavors of power damage for their wells 😜

 

19 hours ago, Tyse the Black.6789 said:

I hear that it's great with harrier, but it doesn't feel great to have a mandatory trait in the line closing off build possibilities. 

Agree, at first i red it as just getting rid of the bonus because it didn't make sense for condi builds. If it is replaced with some other bonus that works for both condi and power I'm all for it.

 

19 hours ago, Tyse the Black.6789 said:

I hear this- however I think that improving access to regen behind the protection + burst heals on shatters and mantras it would be ok.

It might work but it would depend on the amount of protection/internal cooldown. I agree with your point that not everything should be behind a shatter.

 

Thinking about it some more. Shield 4 on chrono, shatter aegis trait on virtuoso and the amount of dodges on mirage would all benefit from this. Even core mesmer with protected phantasms trait and persistance of memory could get a solid way to trigger this effect consistently.

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Inspiration is kinda hold hostage by Blurred Inscriptions in general although it is less severe since SoI got nerfed. Regardless, group Aegis is still stronger than some healing on Illusion cast in most dangerous situations.

I think this is mainly because inspiring distortion syncs so well with blurred inscriptions. A fix could also be to change that trait to give aegis on something else, or better yet change sword 2 to give distortion. It would also simplify the unique class effects a bit (something anets wants to do anyway) and the names could be changed to reflect what the skill/trait actually does:

- blurred inscriptions -> distorting inscriptions, it provides distortion so let's have distortion in the name

- blurred frenzy -> distorting frenzy, the tool tip says it "distorts the space around you" but it provides blur. Making this

 

It would make things clearer for newer mesmer players, both blur and distortion have the same icon.

 

17 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

One would be reducing the ICD on Healing Prism or making it work more like Medical Dispersion to increase its synergy with your Heal or Restorative Illusions. ANet could also change the Power to HP conversion back to an effect more similar to Compounding Power as it was initially etc. (e.g. +2.5% outgoing healing buff when summoning an Illusion). Personally, I don't like the Power to HP conversion because it excludes condition builds.

I could get behind this, but i'm wondering how to balance it. It could replace illusionary inspiration completely if combinded with signet of the ether but then the amount of healing becomes tricky to balance. Things like mirages self-regen or even condi virtuoso will be able to consistently proc it. I'm afraid it would hurt chrono the most if the ICD becomes really low. But if for example chrono can provide regen on the heal well (see below) this is less of an issue.

 

 

 

 

I'm wondering if the "fix" for heal-support mesmer should be in the inspiration trait line. It would be great if the traitline enables support for all mesmer builds but as pointed out by Xaylin it's a mismatch of different types of skills. Balancing wise it might be easier to buff an elite spec instead. I would say that chrono is that mesmers support spec but i might be a bit biased on that ;p.

 

Simple fix could be to change some well skills to help with that support role. Like having the heal well pulse regen, or have wells that pulse might/protection/fury.  Having all the support options packaged into a single skill type would make balancing easier and provide a clearer goal about what a spec is for. Would also mean i dont have to run signets/mantra's/wells/phantasms/4 different traitlines/etc just to be able to support.

 

If anet decides that this is the way forward then please make the wells pulse the buffs instead of having a big effect at the end. It happens way to often i see someone low on health, drop well of eternity on them only for them to panic from the ticking purple circle and dodge out of it.

[Voyant.1327]

I'm able to top end output 3k heals a second on my virt healer, I don't really know what else would be needed in the healing department. While surpassing/matching the dps of the build sites recommendations. 

Virt/Mesmer is extremely versatile, its just few people actually take the time to build em differently.

A well built virt can heal excessively, cleanse the group, provide itself 100% uptime to regen, fury, might. While still having 90%+ bleed duration and 60% base crit. (Oh and forgot 60% quickness uptime at least)

The best moment is when you get someone who brags about finally beating your dps and you ask them if they'd like you to switch to DPS instead of healing.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[Salt Mode.3780]

So where is the build...? Where is the proof...? Being able to heal 3k per sec while providing all that is bold claims.

[Voyant.1327]

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So where is the build...? Where is the proof...? Being able to heal 3k per sec while providing all that is bold claims.

Lol, I do not bow before peer pressure. I hate build sites and meta mentality with a passion not going to contribute to it. 

If civil people want to hit me up in game and have a chill time discussing it and running content sure, I will be more then happy to work with em.

This "prove it to me or you're lying bc its not on a website" stuff though. I just fire a warning shot to relax, its a bloody game and then block.

This is why people are hesitant to share builds or have these discussions bc no one wants to be grilled under a microscope by some random person on the internet.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[Ellon.4316]

3 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

This "prove it to me or you're lying bc its not on a website" stuff though. I just fire a warning shot to relax, its a bloody game and then block.

This is why people are hesitant to share builds or have these discussions bc no one wants to be grilled under a microscope by some random person on the internet.

Gonna be brutally honest, if you don't want this to happen don't start your comment that you out dps the best players in the world while also healing more then the best heal specs at the moment. People tend to call that out 😜 .

 

Now i think the build you came up with works. You take the "bloodsong" trait, combined with "illusionary inspiration", add a combo of seraph/marshall gear, equip some mantra's for healing and boom, support mesmer. Even ran a similar build like that for some time.

 

However when it comes to the boons i'm going to assume a honest mistake. When others here talk about providing regen, might or quickness it is group wide, not just self sustain. The role of a support player is to provide those things for your group and this thread is about making mesmer more viable as such a support player.

 

Now for the healing. The 3k heal per second, I'm curious if this is single target or group wide? ArcDPS reports the number group wide by default. For reference i think qfb and ham both benched around 1500hps single target. For a more real example, I use the Seitung Province meta as a testing ground and i have hit 7K hps group wide once (most of the times it's between 4-5k). That is group wide so about 1400hps single target, but more often then not less then 1k. That build also does less DPS then downstate ele and still lacks multiple support boons compared to the "meta" specs.

 

So just to be sure you, me and everyone else in this thread is on the same page. When talking boon uptime it is about group wide boon uptime. When talking about healing let's keep the numbers single target. For DPS benchmarks we also talk about single target and not AOE DPS.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

its just few people actually take the time to build em differently.

It's not that people don't take the time to build a class. If you read the other comments in this thread there is a lot of knowledge and even people who take a bit too much time on build crafting. Not just people wanting a cookie cutter copy paste build from snowcrows or hardstuck. More the opposite, the OP and others here are more likely to be the ones that eventually create the cookie cutter copy paste build.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

Lol, I do not bow before peer pressure. I hate build sites and meta mentality with a passion not going to contribute to it. 

And that is exactly the reason of this thread, disrupting, breaking and destroying the current meta 😉

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Ellon.4316 said:

Gonna be brutally honest, if you don't want this to happen don't start your comment that you out dps the best players in the world while also healing more then the best heal specs at the moment. People tend to call that out 😜 .

 

Thats the kinda bullcrap I want to call out. I honestly dont care much for PvE builds as most of them will work as I am a competitive player. Those kinda builds don't tend to sit well in the competitive world so I wouldn't care to want a build like that. 

However doesn't mean I haven't done higher end PvE content to know well enough that is a load of garbage.

As far as "Meta" builds go, yes people tend to head towards "Meta" builds is because they have been tested and worked on to achieve "optimal" dps. As a person who has no real knowledge of the class or game ofc they should look at these "Meta" builds. These builds are there to give guidelines, just don't understand the shaming to people using it or creating it. However many "Meta" builds made for competitive play is downright garbage.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Xaylin.1860]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:37 PM, Ellon.4316 said:

A fix could also be to change that trait to give aegis on something else, or better yet change sword 2 to give distortion.

While I'm all for streamlining, this probably won't happen due to the fact that Distortion is an invulnerability. Additionally, it would mean a decap in PvP on Sword which is problematic as well.

On 7/24/2022 at 9:37 PM, Ellon.4316 said:

I could get behind this, but i'm wondering how to balance it. It could replace illusionary inspiration completely if combinded with signet of the ether but then the amount of healing becomes tricky to balance.

Depends on the healing value or CD for sure. However, a 10s ICD just feels too limiting to be useful. If it was like MDF I don't really see an issue. Engineer shows that it can somewhat be balanced and I'd argue that they got more healing options than Mesmer.

 

On 7/24/2022 at 9:37 PM, Ellon.4316 said:

I would say that chrono is that mesmers support spec but i might be a bit biased on that 😜

I'd say the same but implementing a healing Chrono might have become a bit more complicated since last patch due to the GM rework. Chrono now has to decide between Alacrity, Quickness and Damage/Debuff (Slow). I think it is save to say that Quickness is the offensive support route. The only remaining option is something like "Heal allies when applying Alacrity.". However, to make room for that the weird Shield shenigans have to go to not bloat the GMs any further. Additionally, ANet would have to find a way to make Chronophantasma work for the damage/debuff role since they made Lost Time the new support trait. I really would have preferred Alacrity on Chronophantasm...

[Voyant.1327]

16 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Thats the kinda bullcrap I want to call out. I honestly dont care much for PvE builds as most of them will work as I am a competitive player. Those kinda builds don't tend to sit well in the competitive world so I wouldn't care to want a build like that. 

However doesn't mean I haven't done higher end PvE content to know well enough that is a load of garbage.

As far as "Meta" builds go, yes people tend to head towards "Meta" builds is because they have been tested and worked on to achieve "optimal" dps. As a person who has no real knowledge of the class or game ofc they should look at these "Meta" builds. These builds are there to give guidelines, just don't understand the shaming to people using it or creating it. However many "Meta" builds made for competitive play is downright garbage.

And nowhere did I say I was unwilling to have the discussion or show people. Simply not people who come at it like you did. No one owes you anything, don't demand it or certainly put yourself in a position to judge someone else. I came to have a fun conversation not deal with your issues man. 

 

17 hours ago, Ellon.4316 said:

Now for the healing. The 3k heal per second, I'm curious if this is single target or group wide?

And that is exactly the reason of this thread, disrupting, breaking and destroying the current meta 😉

 

The healing is overall group and self. The boons I understand you were probably seeking for more of a traditional support role but that was the main variable here I was trying to highlight.

It comes out of a non traditional style of support for gw2. My main guild isn't big on support play in general, but needed something to keep em going without making it as miserable as the meta experience is (auto-pilot speed clear.) Regen & Fury being at 100% are vital to consistently upkeep the bonus damage, damage reduction, 400 expertise and 250 concentration. I keep my healing power 600-800 through use of Celestials/Seraphs + Inspiration. Every single restocked illusion is a heal. Keeping quickness and excessive bleed procs means you are always refilling and spending blades. This is not including any other forms of healing you're including, I tend to use a heal sigil on my staff. 

Its not a full support that provides the boon salad but it will easily keep the team alive with minimal dps loss. 

Issue most Virt Metas have is that their builds can't keep the boon uptime up or are forced to take 20% bleed duration sigils, etc thus their dps suffers from running dueling over chaos. I understand their philosophy is different though and their builds are all meant to be reliant on others. Yes a full dps skilled glass cannon can still out dps you if they're provided full boons from elsewhere, but in any situation where they're not present you will still put out 20k+dps in things like OW bounties, Fractals, etc as a healer spec.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[Salt Mode.3780]

9 minutes ago, Voyant.1327 said:

And nowhere did I say I was unwilling to have the discussion or show people. Simply not people who come at it like you did. No one owes you anything, don't demand it or certainly put yourself in a position to judge someone else. I came to have a fun conversation not deal with your issues man. 

If you think what I typed was directed to you then so be it, I did not quote you nor state your name anywhere so stop being overly sensitive. In general you aren't the first person to make x claims about how strong their build is, the whole Mesmer forum is riddled with them, you aren't any special and I'm sure you wont be the last person to claim how good or op their build is. I stated it as a general context of these builds and their claims as well as shaming people for using "Meta" builds.

As far as me saying where is the proof it is true, there are no screenshots to back up claims that you can do that copious amount of healing as well as being that amazing in dps.

"A well built virt can heal excessively, cleanse the group, provide itself 100% uptime to regen, fury, might. While still having 90%+ bleed duration and 60% base crit. (Oh and forgot 60% quickness uptime at least)" 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Voyant.1327]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

If you think what I typed was directed to you then so be it, I did not quote you nor state your name anywhere so stop being overly sensitive. In general you aren't the first person to make x claims about how strong their build is, the whole Mesmer forum is riddled with them, you aren't any special and I'm sure you wont be the last person to claim how good or op their build is. I stated it as a general context of these builds and their claims.

Just don't be so condescending or judgemental to others. It doesn't matter if its me or anyone else. People should be treated with respect as equals, I understand forums/reddit/etc largely go unmoderated towards basic civility so its been deemed acceptable behavior by a lot. Coming into the conversation with a negative agenda simply isn't constructive and thus the response was not welcoming. Try just talking to people and see what we're discussing, I'm not claiming I've got a god build that does everything. Just what I want it does very well and isn't the " normal" mesmer builds you see. 

Me I don't wish you any ill will, I simply call out what I see as unhealthy and push back against it.

If you want to come have a chill conversation jump in and lets discuss stuff, otherwise everyone has exhaled their view and we all move on.

Best of luck in the future regardless. 🍻

Edited July 26, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 minutes ago, Voyant.1327 said:

Just don't be so condescending or judgemental to others. It doesn't matter if its me or anyone else. People should be treated with respect as equals, I understand forums/reddit/etc largely go unmoderated towards basic civility so its been deemed acceptable behavior by a lot.

Me I don't wish you any ill will, I simply call out what I see as unhealthy and push back against it.

If you want to come have a chill conversation jump in and lets discuss stuff, otherwise everyone has exhaled their view and we all move on.

Best of luck in the future regardless. 🍻

"Lol, I do not bow before peer pressure. I hate build sites and meta mentality with a passion not going to contribute to it. 

If civil people want to hit me up in game and have a chill time discussing it and running content sure, I will be more then happy to work with em.

This "prove it to me or you're lying bc its not on a website" stuff though. I just fire a warning shot to relax, its a bloody game and then block.

This is why people are hesitant to share builds or have these discussions bc no one wants to be grilled under a microscope by some random person on the internet."

This was because I simply stated "So where is the build...? Where is the proof...? Being able to heal 3k per sec while providing all that is bold claims."

If that is what you mean by judgmental or condescending behavior then you need to get off your high horse. Mesmer forum has already been riddled with trolls from day 1 saying how great Virtuoso is, and 5 months later after the expansion MANY of the bugs/changes that Virtuoso needs are not implemented because of said people claiming how amazing Virtuoso is. Not only did we not receive any real QoL or bug fixes, we got nerfed already in some regards. So no me asking for proof does not mean you should link your build nor do I care for it. There are other ways of proving it like other people with either screenshots of their amazing heals/dps or go as far as making a video. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Voyant.1327]

"So where is the build...? Where is the proof...? Being able to heal 3k per sec while providing all that is bold claims."

^ right there. Coming in demanding people prove to you what they're having a casual conversation about. Its you putting yourself in a position to judge others vs. being part of the discussion. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

24 minutes ago, Voyant.1327 said:

"So where is the build...? Where is the proof...? Being able to heal 3k per sec while providing all that is bold claims."

^ right there. Coming in demanding people prove to you what they're having a casual conversation about. Its you putting yourself in a position to judge others vs. being part of the discussion. 

"I'm able to top end output 3k heals a second on my virt healer, I don't really know what else would be needed in the healing department. While surpassing/matching the dps of the build sites recommendations. 

Virt/Mesmer is extremely versatile, its just few people actually take the time to build em differently.

A well built virt can heal excessively, cleanse the group, provide itself 100% uptime to regen, fury, might. While still having 90%+ bleed duration and 60% base crit. (Oh and forgot 60% quickness uptime at least)

The best moment is when you get someone who brags about finally beating your dps and you ask them if they'd like you to switch to DPS instead of healing."

This is setting yourself up for questions like that and I'm clearly not the only one that thinks that way. 

18 hours ago, Ellon.4316 said:

Gonna be brutally honest, if you don't want this to happen don't start your comment that you out dps the best players in the world while also healing more then the best heal specs at the moment. People tend to call that out 😜 .

My thoughts exactly. Cheers.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Ellon.4316]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:59 AM, Xaylin.1860 said:

Additionally, it would mean a decap in PvP on Sword which is problematic as well.

Ah, my knowledge of PVP is quite limited. Best if it isn't stealth nerfed by the distortion/sword change.

 

On 7/26/2022 at 9:59 AM, Xaylin.1860 said:

I really would have preferred Alacrity on Chronophantasm...

Same, adding it to the wells only adds more clutter, now you have to run wells for alacrity (and really poor timed heals) combined with mantra's for proper healing and take signets for that aegis share. You always end up sacrificing something, if alacrity stays on wells i would like if either well of action or well of senility be changed to a support well, maybe something that pulses might/fury or a more defense focused one that pulses protection, something like that.

 

Was thinking about a change to "well of senility" that makes it pulse weakness/confussion for enemies and might and regen (or fury) for allies. Lorewise something that ages and weakens the enemy while making your own team younger and stronger. Also gives chrono a condi well at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

On 7/26/2022 at 2:40 PM, Voyant.1327 said:

It comes out of a non traditional style of support for gw2. My main guild isn't big on support play in general, but needed something to keep em going without making it as miserable as the meta experience is (auto-pilot speed clear.)

Cool to hear, if you and your guild can make it work then who am i to say it's the "wrong way" to play. And your right, gamers are really good at optimizing the fun out of things 😜.

 

Problem with most groups is that there are certain expectations for what a support role provides. So i hope you can agree that there is still some room for improvement for mesmers to become that boon salad provider.

 

 

 

 

On 7/26/2022 at 3:25 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

My thoughts exactly. Cheers.

Please don't use my snarky comment as validation for a shouting match, yeah he could have been more tactful with some of his comments but it is clear that he looked at this issue from his own play style and experience. One that might not align with the "meta way" but there is nothing wrong with that.

[Salt Mode.3780]

6 minutes ago, Ellon.4316 said:

Please don't use my snarky comment as validation for a shouting match, yeah he could have been more tactful with some of his comments but it is clear that he looked at this issue from his own play style and experience. One that might not align with the "meta way" but there is nothing wrong with that.

Again this an agreement not used in a snarky way. I don't understand the misconception and animosity like I was called out for being "condescending or judgmental to others" when I simply asked for proof. Nor did I say anyone should follow "meta way" I've stated meta builds are guidelines to those who don't understand the class or perhaps wants to try something else. 

[SaferMurderweapon.7143]

Step 1: Build a time machine

Step 2: Time travel back to 2019

Step 3: Profit

[Eponet.4829]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:54 AM, Voyant.1327 said:

I'm able to top end output 3k heals a second on my virt healer, I don't really know what else would be needed in the healing department.

 

Alacrity or Quickness mainly.

Most groups want a healer that can provide one of the two more hard to come by buffs in addition to healing.

The lack of solid uptime of one of the two is pretty much the entire reason why Virtuoso isn't even considered compared to Chronomancer (which can provide either) or Mirage (That can provide Alacrity) despite the silly amount of raw healing they can provide via the sheer number of blades that a Virtuoso can stock combined with Illusionary Inspiration.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Eponet.4829

[Levetty.1279]

Remove the cooldown on Healing Prism.

Make Restorative Illusions AoE.

Make Alls well that ends well give Barrier.

Buff Wells in general so that they are actually useful. Throw some extra boons, heals, barrier and damage on them.

Replace the top line of Virtuoso with traits that give support including alacrity/Quickness.