Maybe an idea for balance

[Serenic.6852]

How about we make mechanist into a selfish spec, remove the boons it gives except might and fury. And make the middle line of traits something about defense. So you can only use it as a condi or power dps spec. I think it wouldnt be overpowered in the meta anymore then. Just a good open world spec.

[Kuma.1503]

Why? Engineer already has Holosmith as the selfish spec.

A good chunk of the scrapper traitline is also selfish, even if had the barrier aspect nerfed by 66% while keeping the vitality trade-off. It also has very limited boon access. It got fury only recently with the firearms change, and it's not permanent upkeep. 

Engineer doesn't need another selfish spec. What it lacked prior to EoD was a good condi spec and and an actual support

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Serenic.6852]

I know what you are saying but could you explain to me what the community thinks is wrong with mechanist then? 

[Lily.1935]

2 hours ago, Serenic.6852 said:

I know what you are saying but could you explain to me what the community thinks is wrong with mechanist then? 

Mechanist is the easiest engineer spec to play for all 5 of its primary builds and far far out paces most classes in those roles while also being easier to use.

The Power damage build's DPS is SLIGHTLY too high for how easy it is to use, but doesn't really need much of a nerf. Like increase aim assisted rocket to 5 second internal cooldown for mechanist only would probably be enough to put it in line.

Mechanist's support build covers a lot of boons with little effort. The biggest thing is it can both stunbreak allies and provides stability which are both extremely helpful while also having decent healing and fantastic barrier uptime. Its close to the perfect healer. If it could provide quickness you'd take nothing else aside from DPS, its that good.

Its extremely strong, but I don't think it needs too much nerfs. Because it is a lot of fun to play. Slight tuning down of the power build and slight tuning down of the support build.

[Serenic.6852]

Thank you, I understand better now. I also find the mechanist fun to play, but lately I feel like im being judged for doing so. :S

[Xyonon.3987]

Power Mech or Mech in general doesn't need any nerfs. The problem isn't Mechanist, it's all the other classes that are too weak. The only reason why Mech feels "so strong" is because the current balance patch gutted so many others and didn't address issues they have:

 

- barely any Quickness or Alac spec can grant 25 Might while not specced into heal

- barely any pDPS spec right now is balanced DPS wise (the majority is ~32k, a few exceptions are yeeting over 40k and a small amount is in the sweer 36-38k spot, Mech included).

 

Don't break what's balanced to fit the others that are broken. Fix what's broken instead. Give Glass Cannon +5% dmg, reduce 5% crit Chance in Firearms (we're at 105% crit with full zerk ...) and give MA 1%. In return remove AAR from the Mech itself. That way pMech stays the same and both Holosmith (32k) and Scrapper (26k) get the buffs they so desperately need.

[LilBiM.3581]

45 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Mechanist is the easiest engineer spec to play for all 5 of its primary builds and far far out paces most classes in those roles while also being easier to use.

The Power damage build's DPS is SLIGHTLY too high for how easy it is to use, but doesn't really need much of a nerf. Like increase aim assisted rocket to 5 second internal cooldown for mechanist only would probably be enough to put it in line.

Mechanist's support build covers a lot of boons with little effort. The biggest thing is it can both stunbreak allies and provides stability which are both extremely helpful while also having decent healing and fantastic barrier uptime. Its close to the perfect healer. If it could provide quickness you'd take nothing else aside from DPS, its that good.

Its extremely strong, but I don't think it needs too much nerfs. Because it is a lot of fun to play. Slight tuning down of the power build and slight tuning down of the support build.

If people think Mechanist is strong in DPS we should perhaps compare it to Cele Renegade, Fresh Air Ele or Berserker. The same easy to use 'strong' build is quite casually dunked on by Scrapper and Thieves, Necros just need to roll condis and the longer the fight goes on the worst it gets. That's practically every listed class that's got more than enough tools to deal with this supposedly 'strong' Mechanist build. It's mediocre at best, and if you main Engineer there's more competitive things for you to play (The pew pew is amusing though).

 

I won't comment on the Support build, since I don't play it much and hence I can't comment about it's performance, however pew pew nade (Power) Mechanist is a threat (as it should be) but not a serious challenge for many of the opponents out there in it's current state. What it is though is plenty entertaining to play.

 

When changes are proposed we (as a community) ought to emphasize less pathos, more logos. With respect to the Power Mechanist; a reduction in performance now would mean that on top of already under performing against a wide range of classes running the appropriate builds, it would also mean that it wouldn't even be fun to play either.

[Lily.1935]

44 minutes ago, Xyonon.3987 said:

Power Mech or Mech in general doesn't need any nerfs. The problem isn't Mechanist, it's all the other classes that are too weak. The only reason why Mech feels "so strong" is because the current balance patch gutted so many others and didn't address issues they have:

 

- barely any Quickness or Alac spec can grant 25 Might while not specced into heal

- barely any pDPS spec right now is balanced DPS wise (the majority is ~32k, a few exceptions are yeeting over 40k and a small amount is in the sweer 36-38k spot, Mech included).

 

Don't break what's balanced to fit the others that are broken. Fix what's broken instead. Give Glass Cannon +5% dmg, reduce 5% crit Chance in Firearms (we're at 105% crit with full zerk ...) and give MA 1%. In return remove AAR from the Mech itself. That way pMech stays the same and both Holosmith (32k) and Scrapper (26k) get the buffs they so desperately need.

I don't disagree with this. I'd prefer everything else be tuned up but that doesn't mean mechanist isn't a bit too good at what it does. Not overly good imo, but the fact it does it at range and loses no DPS for doing so while also being exceptionally strong does make that argument difficult to win.

For me, I want holosmith to be benching around the same as condi harbinger. But I'm not quite sure what to suggest to get it there other than flat number increases. I personally would Like to see holosmith use more of its exceed abilities in a build, like I'd really like it if Hard Light Arena pulsed stability instead of Regeneration and perhaps change Solar focusing lens to reapply a stack or two when using an exceed skill above the threshold. But I haven't put nearly as much thought into Engineer balance as I have for necromancer so I can't say if that'd be too much or not.

[Xyonon.3987]

It loses quite a bit of damage for being ranged:

- crit chance from firearms
- bluderbuss
- jumpshot

I strongly believe it's not Mech that is the issue. It's a 36.5k bench, pre "unbalance patch" this would've been a "fun build".

I do fully agree tho - Holosmith needs a lot of buffs - but so does Scrapper, so I'd love to see Explosives and Firearms buffed instead, which would buff Mech so remove AAR instead. Done. It wouldn't be hard at all. 😕

Edited July 28, 2022 by Xyonon.3987

[Perceptor.7189]

3 hours ago, Serenic.6852 said:

Thank you, I understand better now. I also find the mechanist fun to play, but lately I feel like im being judged for doing so. :S

Don't be. The loud part of the playerbase will always complain when they favorite class/spec it's not on the "main meta class list". Pre EoD (meaning Hot and PoF) engi was a really niche pick, and nothing that anet did for the clases in terms of "buffs" and nerf help to change that perception of the class. Now you can see a lot of engies (and green mechs) in almost every part of the game, and that's awesome...

[ThunderX.6591]

I will always repeat the basic of why people choose Mecha.

Mostly are casual players who choose Mecha cause is simple and easy to use, they aren't elite, they simple want to complete things, they see an easy class, they start to play it.

Plus, Mecha have a robot, and a robot is at the start of the game interface before entering it, so people see it, check what class have something similar, and are more interested in try the class who use it (Robot genre fans are everywhere).

And in any case, Virtuoso is like the preferred DPS in the high end level party where you have less casual and more elite.

[Lily.1935]

2 hours ago, Xyonon.3987 said:

It loses quite a bit of damage for being ranged:

- crit chance from firearms
- bluderbuss
- jumpshot

I strongly believe it's not Mech that is the issue. It's a 36.5k bench, pre "unbalance patch" this would've been a "fun build".

I do fully agree tho - Holosmith needs a lot of buffs - but so does Scrapper, so I'd love to see Explosives and Firearms buffed instead, which would buff Mech so remove AAR instead. Done. It wouldn't be hard at all. 😕

450 range is pretty generous imo, keeps you out of most Aoe, but I I see where you're coming from.

I've been thinking about holosmith a lot because I love the spec. I used to run condi kits holo all the time in raids and it was great fun, especially when you drop down to about dead and pop A.E.D. and just don't die, it feels really rewarding to play and play well.

I personally feel that Solar Focusing Lens sorta pigeonholes you into using Photonic Blasting module and I do think that it granting the same effect on using exceeds with more stacks depending on your heat threshold could make a decent argument to take Enhanced Capacity storage unit OR Photonic blasting module depending on if you want to run a kits build or an exceed build, which could be a nice change to give either a simple rotation or a more complex rotation which I still enjoy.

But I suppose that's a bit off topic.. Sorry, my brain has been on holosmith a lot lately...

[MrForz.1953]

2 hours ago, Perceptor.7189 said:

Now you can see a lot of engies (and green mechs) in almost every part of the game, and that's awesome...

Meh. It's not Engies you see, it's the jade tech knockoffs, most will not express any form of interest in the other specs or core. If that's what it takes for the "class" to be everywhere I'd rather go back to the niche.

[Dadnir.5038]

11 hours ago, Serenic.6852 said:

Thank you, I understand better now. I also find the mechanist fun to play, but lately I feel like im being judged for doing so. :S

You shouldn't give much value to the opinion of peoples that "judge" you for playing something. You're free to play whatever you like whether it's seen as "OP" or "UP". In most case, if what you play is seen as "OP" it's just that these people are jealous while if what you play is seen as "UP" these people just have prejudices.

[Holly.8190]

11 hours ago, MrForz.1953 said:

Meh. It's not Engies you see, it's the jade tech knockoffs, most will not express any form of interest in the other specs or core. If that's what it takes for the "class" to be everywhere I'd rather go back to the niche.

This is exactly how i feel, Especially with the 28th of june changes like rifle and the range modifiers clearly done with Mech in mind as they barely do anything for Holo/Scrapper. I will continue to play Holo/Scrapper and even core but Mechanist just isnt Engineer and for people who asked for an ez build i think you guys are forgetting Flamethrower Scrapper.

[Kuma.1503]

I chose mech because I love the idea of massive golems/robots with explosive weaponry. Energy blasts, lazer canons, rocket fists, Mech has it all. 

There are a lot of people with the sentiment that mechanist isn't engineer, unlike holo and scrapper, but I disagree. Building a robot companion for back up seems exactly what an Engineer would do. 

Despite my love for the theme though, I was very vocally against Anet releasing Mech as an AI spec. As cool as it is thematically, the community HATES AI specs, and they never last long. 

Just look at the community reaction to it right now. Anet refuses to delete the spec like they have other AI builds and they collectively lose their minds. They nerf it in a patch and they either ignore it or claim it has been buffed and say something like "Why hasn't mech been touched".

They throw around hyperbolic claims like "Mech is dominating every game mode" (Never mind that it's bad in Wvw and meme tier at best in PvP)

They throw around misinformation "Mech does 30k dps completely unbuffed!"

Every class complaint is proceeded by "My class bad, but meanwhile mechanist can..."

This could have been avoided if they made it a mech suit instead of an AI, but unless that happens, I can only hope Anet doesn't cave into the angry mob. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Lily.1935]

41 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Despite my love for the theme though, I was very vocally against Anet releasing Mech as an AI spec. As cool as it is thematically, the community HATES AI specs, and they never last long. 

There is a very vocal minority in the community which hates AI specs. But that's not the general consensus.

[Lily.1935]

17 hours ago, MrForz.1953 said:

Meh. It's not Engies you see, it's the jade tech knockoffs, most will not express any form of interest in the other specs or core. If that's what it takes for the "class" to be everywhere I'd rather go back to the niche.

The same thing happened with Necromancer. People only wanted to play reaper, only reaper, REAPER WAS EVERYTHING! they didn't want to touch scourge or harbinger and many still don't. This isn't unique to engineer and honestly, Just let people enjoy things. So what if they don't hard core grind out Engineer? So what if they don't like Scrapper or holosmith? The only warrior elite spec I'm interested in is bladesworn. If they click with an elite spec that's great. Doesn't mean they suddenly have to like the other specs.

I love scrapper because of its uniqueness with Gyros and especially its group stealth in fractals. I think its a really interesting and unique healer and damage dealer. I love Holosmith for its fast paced attacks and satisfying heat mechanic. I love the Mechanist for its simplicity and its unique puppeteering style of gameplay giving me a lot of control over its actions. But Engineer is my second most played class in the game. I don't expect everything in the class to click with everyone because they play quite different. Its a similar situation to Necromancer. You're just going to have to accept it.

[MrForz.1953]

11 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

The same thing happened with Necromancer. People only wanted to play reaper, only reaper, REAPER WAS EVERYTHING! they didn't want to touch scourge or harbinger and many still don't. This isn't unique to engineer and honestly, Just let people enjoy things. So what if they don't hard core grind out Engineer? So what if they don't like Scrapper or holosmith? The only warrior elite spec I'm interested in is bladesworn. If they click with an elite spec that's great. Doesn't mean they suddenly have to like the other specs.

They don't have to like it, and there's zero incentive to visit them anyways because Holosmith as a whole gets bullied by Power Mech + Condi Mech and Scrapper is just an inferior Quickness dispenser. I do have a gripe on the fact that the spec reeks of fan service after Golemancer was moaned about for years even though it's unrelated to the class in both concept and practice. I don't like the Guardian specs, and I'm not going to try to bend the class to my preferences without much experience, why would it be different for people and Engineer. But yes, what's done is done, at least they're meme tier in pvp.

 

Also, nice to see you there Lily.

Edited July 29, 2022 by MrForz.1953

[Endaris.1452]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

There are a lot of people with the sentiment that mechanist isn't engineer, unlike holo and scrapper, but I disagree. Building a robot companion for back up seems exactly what an Engineer would do.

It's not about the lore here, it's about the class identity in terms of gameplay. And that really has nothing to do with engineer for the most part.

[Holly.8190]

Mechanist is simply what Umtamed should have been, Engi should have had a spec that felt like Engineer

[Kuma.1503]

29 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

It's not about the lore here, it's about the class identity in terms of gameplay. And that really has nothing to do with engineer for the most part.

Engineer's class identity comes in 2 parts.  

1. Versatility.

 You have a tool, a gadget, an invention for any scenario that might come your way. You don't brute force your way through problems in the same way a warrior would, you magic your way through problems in the same way a mesmer or elementalist would. You use your inventions and intellect. 

How this plays out in game: Sadly, a our gadgets and turrets are dead due to ANet "Balance", but some of this gameplay is preserved in our kits. Little versatile grab bags that we can use to load up on whatever we might need. 

Mechanist, if anything , takes this a step further. We have a versatile and customizable mech. We have very customizable and versatile builds. Speaking purely in terms of gameplay, we can go for a simple rotation with signets and 1 kit, or we can go for a more traditional core condi engi build with 4 kits.

We can trait into DPS. Heals, or hybrid builds. We can go melee or ranged, power or condi. Mech perserves engi's versatility in terms of gameplay. 

2. High APM Kit swapping. 

Another thing engineer is known for. Kits, and the piano rotations that come with them. 

Kits are still the ideal way to play condi alac mech, and they are also the more challenging but more rewarding way to play DPS condi mech. 

Ham also makes great use of our kits. It runs Elixir Gun, Med kit, and Mortar kit, and uses the Mech utility to supliment the build and allow it to perform well in high end content. 

If anything Mech takes the good old fashioned core kit gameplay and amplifies it, while adding even more APM requirement on top because you have to micromanage your mech at the same time. 

People hyper focus on the singet only builds and the DPS rifle builds (which still runs Nade kit for the record) and assume that's all Mech is about. If you took the time to learn core condi engi back in the day, or if you learned Heal Scrapper, that WILL benefit you moving forward as you master the class. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Lily.1935]

1 hour ago, MrForz.1953 said:

They don't have to like it, and there's zero incentive to visit them anyways because Holosmith as a whole gets bullied by Power Mech + Condi Mech and Scrapper is just an inferior Quickness dispenser. I do have a gripe on the fact that the spec reeks of fan service after Golemancer was moaned about for years even though it's unrelated to the class in both concept and practice. I don't like the Guardian specs, and I'm not going to try to bend the class to my preferences without much experience, why would it be different for people and Engineer. But yes, what's done is done, at least they're meme tier in pvp.

 

Also, nice to see you there Lily.

I agree that scrapper and Holosmith should be tuned up a bit. Scrapper's quickness is a bit too tight for my liking on its DPS quickness spec and it could use a few more boons to give it some extra utility. Holosmith I think needs more damage and I do think a damage spec providing stability on hard light arena could be quite fun and unique. Scourge kinda does it on its DPS build sometimes with some success  so why not holosmith as well?

I do love engineer and I'm here with you in wanting to see other specs run more often. My guild does run Scrapper still. And I'll run all 3 specs depending on my mood although I'm in love with quick DPS scrapper at the moment.

Also, nice to see you too.

[Endaris.1452]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

If you took the time to learn core condi engi back in the day, or if you learned Heal Scrapper, that WILL benefit you moving forward as you master the class. 

I played them both and I'm sure I'm going to be fine on mechanist.

The main point is that all skills on the right side of our health display are balanced around having a toolbelt skill, meaning whenever you choose mechanist, all of your other utility skills automatically become a lot weaker, many to the point of becoming non-options in comparison to signets, that are overtuned by having this in mind and kits that traditionally have only a small part of their power in the toolbelt skill. I don't think engineer is just about the kits but about finding creative solutions with your utilities and in that manner, cleverly arranging your utilities while considering their duality.

This is all axed with mechanist and in a toxic and overpowering manner. The entire traitline is simply designed about fitting into different meta roles and has essentially 0 synergy with engineer's other traitlines or kit beyond "oh yeah, your mech now uses explosions!" - which creates exactly 0 interaction with your gameplay with the exception of AAR which they specifically altered to work with mechanist. I don't disagree that it is strong and versatile. It is in fact too strong at the moment.

[Matoro.9708]

turrets are the real selfish spec because you are useless everywhere, die, get people to try and res you, they also die, everyone dies