High personal DPS Support source?

[Mell.4873]

The highest personal DPS a support can get is 36k Condition Mirage Alacrity, but I don't see this played very often, why? 
This is a very hard to do with Condition Mirage without more concentration or the traited Signet of Inspiration.

The next inline is 33-34k Alacrity Untamed which abuses the lower cooldown trait Fervent Force, this is very hard combo and almost impossible to maintain alacrity.

Finally we have 30k with Condition Quickness Harbinger, Berserker and Firebrand, this might be only valid one. Again I ask is it your job to get a high personal DPS or keep boons at 100% duration?

 

Mechanist doesn't even need to be mentioned since its 25k.

[anbujackson.9564]

First priority should always be a reliable boon uptime on quickness/alac. 

After that you take into consideration what else you can bring. High damage and nothing else? Good danage and good utility, lower damage and high utility. I would say the latter two are important. Will you play condi berserker which relies on fire auras or harbringer/firebrand which do more damage/have more utility or flexibility. Will you play power scrapper or chrono or whatever power quickness source when there is herald? Maybe.. But you loose group value. And more group value = higher win rate.

Utility and flexibility are king in this game. Thats why inspi support chrono was so good while dealing low dps  Too bad it doesnt exist anymore.

[Ashgar.3024]

Don't know Mesmer very well but doesn't the damage from Confusion vary wildly from fight to fight? Which is why its favored on a few (SH and TL mainly) while mostly ignored on others?

 

That would be my guess as why Staff Mirage is a niche pick anyway.

 

Alac Untamed is a piano-build and is melee so the damage you get while benching on a golem versus what you'll realistically get on a fight with movements and mechanics is bound to be very inconsistent.

 

Most meta builds are meta because they're safe picks, not because they're the absolute peak of what you can get output wise. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Alcatraznc.3869]

You just have to look at how the community react to understand why some spec, even though they are good, are not played. 

 

But if you tag as a support for whatever boon, I expect you to be pumping out that boon. Doing damage is secondary, you did not tag as a DPS. Same when people tag as a healer or a DPS.

[Mell.4873]

On 8/9/2022 at 9:12 AM, anbujackson.9564 said:

Utility and flexibility are king in this game. Thats why inspi support chrono was so good while dealing low dps  Too bad it doesnt exist anymore.

I agree and I still play Inspiration Chrono Support.

[Mell.4873]

On 8/9/2022 at 12:09 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

But if you tag as a support for whatever boon, I expect you to be pumping out that boon. Doing damage is secondary, you did not tag as a DPS. Same when people tag as a healer or a DPS.

Agreed, this whole thread was in response to each individual profession complaining about this support dps hybrid meta which doesn't really exist.

Mechnaist is the perfect example, sure it can DPS at 28k with no skill and push out boons but is it really that relevent since when it needs to be a support it sits at 25k.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Nimon.7840]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:12 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

First priority should always be a reliable boon uptime on quickness/alac. 

After that you take into consideration what else you can bring. High damage and nothing else? Good danage and good utility, lower damage and high utility. I would say the latter two are important. Will you play condi berserker which relies on fire auras or harbringer/firebrand which do more damage/have more utility or flexibility. Will you play power scrapper or chrono or whatever power quickness source when there is herald? Maybe.. But you loose group value. And more group value = higher win rate.

Utility and flexibility are king in this game. Thats why inspi support chrono was so good while dealing low dps  Too bad it doesnt exist anymore.

I do get your point, but where is harbingers utility (without dropping quickness or changing builds/gear)?

Sure you can use elite elixir for stability or aegis, but the cooldown is way to high to justify taking out Plaguelands. If I remember correctly that's a 2-3k dps loss.

What else do you want to change out?

- Blood is power? Probably your best dps skill

- elixir of anguish? 100% quickness gone

- Elixir of risk? You loose permanent fury uptime

- healing elixir? Probably the most interchangable one

But taking out one elixir will definetly loose you damage from two sources: septic corruption and you cannot do the full shroud rotation.

What do you gain for it? 

- Healing well? Barely heals allies on a full DPS build

- poison cloud? Epidemic? Well of corruption? Spectral grasp? Well of power? All these skills aren't really worth imo. 

You need a pull? Take a focus virtuoso with you.

You need boon remove? Greatsword virtuoso.

You need a projectile block? Heal mech of firebrand (same for condi cleanse).

All the utility you could bring by taking out something, is brought by other classes passively.

 

And for boons: you could play aristocracy+ more ritualist gear (for 100% might duration), which will net you around 24-25k dps. But even with elixir of risk and blood is power, you won't be able to keep up 25 might over a longer fight. Even if you manage to adjust your rotation for might uptime (which will loose you dps) there will be drops to 20 stacks might.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Nimon.7840

[GWstinkt.6094]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:50 PM, Mell.4873 said:

The highest personal DPS a support can get is 36k Condition Mirage Alacrity, but I don't see this played very often, why? 
This is a very hard to do with Condition Mirage without more concentration or the traited Signet of Inspiration.

The next inline is 33-34k Alacrity Untamed which abuses the lower cooldown trait Fervent Force, this is very hard combo and almost impossible to maintain alacrity.

I think you are referring to Staxe Mirage here? Which achieves the 36k benchmark by playing axe and therefor only providing about 50% alacrity uptime. Staff Mirage benches a few k lower while providing 100% alac uptime.

I think the main reason these builds aren't played much currently is because there are much simpler builds available. Mirage requires you to keep on top of your staff ambush uses to get high alac uptime while other builds can do it almost passively.

 

On 8/9/2022 at 1:41 AM, Ashgar.3024 said:

Don't know Mesmer very well but doesn't the damage from Confusion vary wildly from fight to fight? Which is why its favored on a few (SH and TL mainly) while mostly ignored on others?

See above why the 36k number is a bit misleading. But actually there is a misconception about Mirage dps in general for both the alacrity and condition variations:

Currently the benchmarks for Staff Mirage (100% Alac), Staxe Mirage (50% Alac) and Condi Mirage are:
Staff: 28k
Staxe: 36k
Condi: 38k

I feel like a lot of people assume that these are the numbers Mirage is able to pull on an enemy that confusion works well on. But those are actually golem numbers meaning the confusion never deals its active damage.
This means Mirage actually performs really well everywhere but can absolutely crush and exceed in certain encounters. I suspect the main reason this spec is currently underplayed is the intially steep learning curve combined with current trends. We currently have multiple builds that are widely known and easy to play, so naturally a lot of people pick them up, do really well on them and then stick to what they know. Mirage is still a great pick for anyone who wants to fill a very offensive boon or pure dps role.

[Mell.4873]

13 minutes ago, GWstinkt.6094 said:

I think you are referring to Staxe Mirage here? Which achieves the 36k benchmark by playing axe and therefor only providing about 50% alacrity uptime. Staff Mirage benches a few k lower while providing 100% alac uptime.

I think the main reason these builds aren't played much currently is because there are much simpler builds available. Mirage requires you to keep on top of your staff ambush uses to get high alac uptime while other builds can do it almost passively.

 

See above why the 36k number is a bit misleading. But actually there is a misconception about Mirage dps in general for both the alacrity and condition variations:

Currently the benchmarks for Staff Mirage (100% Alac), Staxe Mirage (50% Alac) and Condi Mirage are:
Staff: 28k
Staxe: 36k
Condi: 38k

I feel like a lot of people assume that these are the numbers Mirage is able to pull on an enemy that confusion works well on. But those are actually golem numbers meaning the confusion never deals its active damage.
This means Mirage actually performs really well everywhere but can absolutely crush and exceed in certain encounters. I suspect the main reason this spec is currently underplayed is the intially steep learning curve combined with current trends. We currently have multiple builds that are widely known and easy to play, so naturally a lot of people pick them up, do really well on them and then stick to what they know. Mirage is still a great pick for anyone who wants to fill a very offensive boon or pure dps role.

Well that is good to know, so the one Mirage I thought could be this legendary Support DPS doesn't really exist. I mean when i play it i do full support by using Inspiration.

[GWstinkt.6094]

19 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well that is good to know, so the one Mirage I thought could be this legendary Support DPS doesn't really exist. I mean when i play it i do full support by using Inspiration.

Staff Alacrity Mirage is still a really cool and strong support build. On the golem it is still the second highest benching Alacrity build behind Untamed.

This is misleading for two reasons though: actually pulling off the Alac Untamed rotation in a fight can be quite difficult and easy to trip up. Very few players will be actually able to achieve the untamed benchmark in a real encounter.
Performing the Alac Mirage rotation might be difficult but is much more doable and less prone to problems because it's a ranged build with tons of evades.
Also those 28k on the golem come with an average of about 35 stacks of confusion. With some rough calculations those come out at about 12k damage per attack that the boss does. Depending on the encounter this will seriously increase your dps.

Staxe Mirage is also a serious contender. While you lose 50% Alac uptime, you gain some serious personal dps. This would be difficult to pull of in pugs, but a with some friends or guild mates, your group could easily run two Staxe Mirages each pulling top tier dps even without confusion hits while together still providing 25 stacks of might and 100% alac uptime.

You can squeeze some crazy good performance out of Mirage both with dps and support builds. Mirage doesn't provide quite as meany boons as other boon supports do but in return comes in hot with very high damage potential and a crazy good might generation as each chaos vortex brings 8 stacks. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by GWstinkt.6094

[anbujackson.9564]

9 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

I do get your point, but where is harbingers utility (without dropping quickness or changing builds/gear)?

Sure you can use elite elixir for stability or aegis, but the cooldown is way to high to justify taking out Plaguelands. If I remember correctly that's a 2-3k dps loss.

What else do you want to change out?

- Blood is power? Probably your best dps skill

- elixir of anguish? 100% quickness gone

- Elixir of risk? You loose permanent fury uptime

- healing elixir? Probably the most interchangable one

But taking out one elixir will definetly loose you damage from two sources: septic corruption and you cannot do the full shroud rotation.

What do you gain for it? 

- Healing well? Barely heals allies on a full DPS build

- poison cloud? Epidemic? Well of corruption? Spectral grasp? Well of power? All these skills aren't really worth imo. 

You need a pull? Take a focus virtuoso with you.

You need boon remove? Greatsword virtuoso.

You need a projectile block? Heal mech of firebrand (same for condi cleanse).

All the utility you could bring by taking out something, is brought by other classes passively.

 

And for boons: you could play aristocracy+ more ritualist gear (for 100% might duration), which will net you around 24-25k dps. But even with elixir of risk and blood is power, you won't be able to keep up 25 might over a longer fight. Even if you manage to adjust your rotation for might uptime (which will loose you dps) there will be drops to 20 stacks might.

 

Yeah I was referring to higher damage in the case of harbringer. Utility for firebrand.

Harbringer is pretty limited when it comes to his utility skills, no doubt about it. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

23 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

I do get your point, but where is harbingers utility (without dropping quickness or changing builds/gear)?

Sure you can use elite elixir for stability or aegis, but the cooldown is way to high to justify taking out Plaguelands. If I remember correctly that's a 2-3k dps loss.

What else do you want to change out?

- Blood is power? Probably your best dps skill

- elixir of anguish? 100% quickness gone

- Elixir of risk? You loose permanent fury uptime

- healing elixir? Probably the most interchangable one

But taking out one elixir will definetly loose you damage from two sources: septic corruption and you cannot do the full shroud rotation.

What do you gain for it? 

- Healing well? Barely heals allies on a full DPS build

- poison cloud? Epidemic? Well of corruption? Spectral grasp? Well of power? All these skills aren't really worth imo. 

You need a pull? Take a focus virtuoso with you.

You need boon remove? Greatsword virtuoso.

You need a projectile block? Heal mech of firebrand (same for condi cleanse).

All the utility you could bring by taking out something, is brought by other classes passively.

 

And for boons: you could play aristocracy+ more ritualist gear (for 100% might duration), which will net you around 24-25k dps. But even with elixir of risk and blood is power, you won't be able to keep up 25 might over a longer fight. Even if you manage to adjust your rotation for might uptime (which will loose you dps) there will be drops to 20 stacks might.

 

I've been replacing Blood is Power for when I need a niche utility.  Corrupt boon on Dhuum, Corrosive Poison Cloud on Sloth and Arkk, etc. and so on.  This is the standard for every support profession not named Firebrand, and sometimes even then.  When I need to fulfill a particular niche or role, DPS suffers because I'm changing out DPS weapons/utilities/traits for something else.  I do this without much conscience, because as a support player the entire team dies if I don't take these necessary utilities.  Then again I also mostly do pug runs, which is why I've adopted the "It's me or we all die" mentality.