I realized one of the biggest problems with EoD final meta

[Izzy.2951]

9 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I guess it was inevitable this would become about difficulty again.

Interesting how on the one hand, you have someone suggesting extra development resources go into accommodating the skilled player desire by making an instanced version of this (as opposed to just nerfing it) and then on the other hand, you have someone demanding unskilled players not "leech" and that they are the problem. But "casuals" I am always being told, are the entitled ones, huh...

I am seeing this thing about it not being the same or something if it's instanced? But doing this meta as an organized squad in voice chat who tried to get everyone out of map who is not doing it, is basically doing it instanced already.

I have completed the event multiple times without any voice chat. Making content instanced is not gonna help, cos you will have the same amount of people wanna do it for achivements rewards or story, and its gonna be the same.

You guys have to stop telling people when they add 1% challenging content to go and do raids. Cos as ive said, they are not selling the game telling us that all open world is gonna be easy 100% succes rate, and cos its endgame content.

You can see people doing 1 hit and afking in all the metas of the game "except this and triple trouble". Also you can see people with 5 different account leaching the rewards daily. So you wanna support a leeching afk game, where you just show up and get your loot? I dont see this in any game to be fair.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Luci.7018]

6 minutes ago, Izzy.2951 said:

I have completed the event multiple times without any voice chat. Making content instanced is not gonna help, cos you will have the same amount of people wanna do it for achivements rewards or story, and its gonna be the same.

You guys have to stop telling people when they add 1% challenging content to go and do raids. Cos as ive said, they are not selling the game telling as that all open world is gonna be easy 100% succes rate, and cos its endgame content.

You can see people doing 1 hit and afking in all the metas of the game "except this and triple trouble". Also you can see people with 5 different account leaching the rewards daily. So you wanna support a leeching afk game, where you just show up and get your loot? I dont see this in any game to be fair.

It's not an exiting game when you loose , because you didn't do enough dps .

It would be if you didn't cc the boss , or avoid the 1x hit KO , or didn't all people do properly the mechanics (greens in CM temple) .

If success hinges around dps , then it's not very exciting , and thus why most people avoid it

Edited August 22, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Labjax.2465]

5 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

When you mean boundaries you mean more interesting mechanics or timers+huge HP ?

Because i want mechanics 😄 I hate the 100lvl fractal  with the humongous hp

It's also a strange implementation of DPS check. Even dragon's stand has more of a soft enrage on the boss itself with it consuming ley energy and destroying the platforms. With this, it's just like "poof" lol.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Pushing the boundaries every now and then and having a little diversity now means git gud and focusing on elitists? 

Yes, because that's exactly the direction those boundaries keep getting pushed. There's no diversity, it's just giving up more and more to a tiny minority (and always the same one) at the cost to everyone else.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, because that's exactly the direction those boundaries keep getting pushed. There's no diversity, it's just giving up more and more to a tiny minority (and always the same one) at the cost to everyone else.

Wow that’s nonsense and not even remotely true. You seem to live in another reality. So the emboldened raid mode and all the power creep means focusing on elitists and giving up more and more to a tiny minority? That’s ridiculous 
 

Edited August 22, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Izzy.2951]

10 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, because that's exactly the direction those boundaries keep getting pushed. There's no diversity, it's just giving up more and more to a tiny minority (and always the same one) at the cost to everyone else.

What minority? cos i see more or less the same amount of ppl in each side. HoT pushed the limits of the game and for most of the ppl was the best expansions, raids did too, open world like tequatl rework, triple trouble, DE meta.

Idk what you want seriously. Arenanet to develop content like boring core game? so they dont push the boundries? With no challenge, no raids, no fractals etc you are gonna be playing a game with 100 people and arenanet having no budget to develop the content you like so much. So you are not even making yourself a favor, just being selfish till the extreme. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, Izzy.2951 said:

I have completed the event multiple times without any voice chat. Making content instanced is not gonna help, cos you will have the same amount of people wanna do it for achivements rewards or story, and its gonna be the same.

You guys have to stop telling people when they add 1% challenging content to go and do raids. Cos as ive said, they are not selling the game telling us that all open world is gonna be easy 100% succes rate, and cos its endgame content.

You can see people doing 1 hit and afking in all the metas of the game "except this and triple trouble". Also you can see people with 5 different account leaching the rewards daily. So you wanna support a leeching afk game, where you just show up and get your loot? I dont see this in any game to be fair.

Pretty sure they were suggesting an additional instanced version for people who want a challenge, not putting it only in an instance.

But as to leeching, yes I want to support that kind of game if it means open world metas are a fun community experience. You know what I see frequently when I go to AB. People happy. People who know each other saying hi. Why should I care whether joe bob over in the corner is phoning it in. If we get the victory and people have a good time, and they want to show up for the next one, that's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for people. Why would that bother me. "People are happy playing this game." "Ok, that's fine I guess, but are they being challenged enough???"

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Pretty sure they were suggesting an additional instanced version for people who want a challenge, not putting it only in an instance.

But as to leeching, yes I want to support that kind of game if it means open world metas are a fun community experience. You know what I see frequently when I go to AB. People happy. People who know each other saying hi. Why should I care whether joe bob over in the corner is phoning it in. If we get the victory and people have a good time, and they want to show up for the next one, that's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for people. Why would that bother me. "People are happy playing this game." "Ok, that's fine I guess, but are they being challenged enough???"

You know what, I see the exact same thing every time I do the DE meta. And I have done it now over 100 times. The DE meta is a great and fun community experience for everyone who gets involved. 

[Izzy.2951]

8 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Pretty sure they were suggesting an additional instanced version for people who want a challenge, not putting it only in an instance.

But as to leeching, yes I want to support that kind of game if it means open world metas are a fun community experience. You know what I see frequently when I go to AB. People happy. People who know each other saying hi. Why should I care whether joe bob over in the corner is phoning it in. If we get the victory and people have a good time, and they want to show up for the next one, that's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for people. Why would that bother me. "People are happy playing this game." "Ok, that's fine I guess, but are they being challenged enough???"

With all my respects. The people that keeps this game alive are people that stick to the game. I have found things interesting in my 1st playthrough. But you cannot expect a person to be enjoying doing Shadow Behemoth for 10 years, cos it just kills your brain cells. It has no intrigue if you are getting it or not, its not challenging, its not even rewarding. And it ends up not being fun, maybe just coming 1 time every ages.

Yes i have enjoyed doing choya just for "being a new thing to do". But if all this game has to offer, is waiting a timer and hiting 2 skills like a brainded to a inflated HP boss for 10 years. Then i would happily unistall the game.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Silent.6137]

4 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You know what I see frequently when I go to AB. People happy. People who know each other saying hi. Why should I care whether joe bob over in the corner is phoning it in. If we get the victory and people have a good time, and they want to show up for the next one, that's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for people. Why would that bother me. "People are happy playing this game." "Ok, that's fine I guess, but are they being challenged enough???"

You know what I see frequently when we do DE meta? Happy people. People who know each other and saying "Hi". We get the victory and we all have a good time. And everyone wants to show up for the next one. That's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for us

[Labjax.2465]

37 minutes ago, Izzy.2951 said:

With all my respects. The people that keeps this game alive are people that stick to the game. I have found things interesting in my 1st playthrough. But you cannot expect a person to be enjoying doing Shadow Behemoth for 10 years, cos it just kills your brain cells. It has no intrigue if you are getting it or not, its not challenging, its not even rewarding. And it ends up not being fun, maybe just coming 1 time every ages.

Yes i have enjoyed doing choya just for "being a new thing to do". But if all this game has to offer, is waiting a timer and hiting 2 skills like a brainded to a inflated HP boss for 10 years. Then i would happily unistall the game.

Idk why you're bringing up Shadow Behemoth, when I used AB as an example (a meta that requires coordination between 4 lanes and has 4 different unique lane mechanics that all need to be done right to complete it, albeit not much coordination at this point in its life). Anyway, I find AB stimulating, don't feel any brain cells going. I'm not a huge lover of repetition, so I wouldn't want to do it all the time, but that'd be the case for me whether it was super hard or not.

Edit: And I think it's important to note that for me, a lot of this comes down to whether it's even realistic to have a thriving open world meta environment like GW2 has cultivated while still having a high chance of failure when doing metas. The popularity of different metas, from what I can tell, would suggest that the higher the chance of failure is, the less people are going to show up for it. And the why seems apparent to me, as it relates to the pugging nature of the open world environment: you don't know who you will get next time, you don't know who didn't or did pull their weight, and you have little way of impacting the success rate the next time, unless you know you did poorly and can improve. If you know you brought your best and you can't see you being able to do any more to increase the chances of winning, then what's the point of coming back for another RNG roll of what pug group you get this time. So I would think this type of environment would deter skilled players even more than non-skilled, which exacerbates the fail rate. Like you can be fine with personal failure, but still find it demoralizing to keep trying in this format because your contribution means so little.

Some get around this by joining organized guilds or voice comms I guess, but then we're going into territory that is no longer the organic pugging experience and is much harder to organically maintain in off hours, and the charm of being a lively open world deteriorates.

In other words, people can judge it all they want, but I don't see how it's sustainable over time if people think stuff will fail. I do think it probably does still need to be somewhat stimulating to keep people's attention over time though and metas like AB as it is now seems like a healthy middle ground in that way. Hell, even the meta this thread is about, which is a fair bit more complicated in coordination, would probably deter no one is there was more breathing room to kill the boss in; if the challenge was mechanics instead of DPS. Like people do metas with mechanics all the time, AB itself has plenty. It kinda seems there's this over-focus in conversations about challenge on DPS numbers and missing how much of challenge can be (and already is in many popular metas) mechanics.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Izzy.2951]

Idk if human beings are so different. But when i play basketball, i can be the 1st day training how bounce the ball and doing basic stuff and i can love basketball. But if after 10 years, so we dont push the boundries you are gonna ask me to just keep doing that basic stuff i will stop playing basketball and go do something else.

Cos i will want to coordinate with my team, have fun with them, shot a triple, play a match. And idk any person that would enjoy "learn how to bouncer the ball in a corner for 10 years", and is basically what you ask for in Gw2 so for me it has no sense. One thing is accesibility that theres already in the game, and other is basically having ALL content be free and required to do nothing.

If i play a basketball match i dont want the enemy team to be afk. Cos it will cut all the fun of playing. And Choya is basically an afk player that is gonna let you win constantly.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Luci.7018]

37 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

You know what I see frequently when we do DE meta? Happy people. People who know each other and saying "Hi". We get the victory and we all have a good time. And everyone wants to show up for the next one. That's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for us

You know what I see frequently when we do any other meta?  Even happier people . More relaxed people that tell jokes .That's healthy for the game and that's the Overworld community is famous for

While we can support the other groups , the competitive one with instances . We can make the EoD meta have a instanced version like the Marrionete , so the people are expected there to do 10k dps and give them more rewards

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Cyninja.2954]

58 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, because that's exactly the direction those boundaries keep getting pushed. There's no diversity, it's just giving up more and more to a tiny minority (and always the same one) at the cost to everyone else.

That is not actually true, at least not going by what we see in player activity.

It is reasonable to assume that the player base is not just binary, but rather on a spectrum of desires in regards to how challenging content is. Offering diverse content in regards to difficulty and challenge makes far more sense when trying to appeal to a larger player pool.

This can be done in a variety of ways:

- offering adjustable difficulty in content which is of high significance for example (story mode, strikes, strike CMs)

- offering varying difficulty across in similar content (open world bosses with varying difficulties)

To assume that the vast majority of players is happy with only totally brain dead content seems a very very large stretch and is absolutely not reflected in the numbers we have seen over the years.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Luci.7018]

17 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

- offering varying difficulty across in similar content (open world bosses with varying difficulties)

We can have content with various difficult mechanics ( CM Temple's mechanics are welcomed into PvE) in the Overworld , that doesn't need to have stingy timers . We instead increased the "failed conditions" , such for not doing properly the secondary mechanics .

Timers should be a CM hassle . While in other formats , more damage should be a "bypass" mechanic .

 

So the progression will be  Story>Overworld>Strike>Raid>CM Strike

Edited August 22, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Labjax.2465]

55 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

You know what I see frequently when we do DE meta? Happy people. People who know each other and saying "Hi". We get the victory and we all have a good time. And everyone wants to show up for the next one. That's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for us

I did one the other day and it was a fail and people seemed kind of silent and bummed to me. We also had a commander from early on, a squad split into sub groups, extensive mechanics explanation along the way and during. If that can't crack it, if the weak link is gonna be because some people are in the wrong build or gear, or got wiped by a slap or whatever.... is that really what some people want out of open world? It seems like the people who say they want the challenge just get mad at what they see as the weak links, but getting mad at them isn't gonna make them any less of a real part of the open world. And if the entire playerbase became 100% more skilled overnight and anet tuned the next major meta based on how they are after that % increase, then we would have the same problem again, just with the floor being higher this time.

[Cyninja.2954]

31 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

We can have content with various difficult mechanics ( CM Temple's mechanics are welcomed into PvE) in the Overworld , that doesn't need to have stingy timers . We instead increased the "failed conditions" , such for not doing properly the secondary mechanics .

Timers should be a CM hassle . While in other formats , more damage should be a "bypass" mechanic .

 

So the progression will be  Story>Overworld>Strike>Raid>CM Strike

 

This discussion has been had over and over. The main issue at hand is NOT the timer. It's the dps loss due to players:

A. not being well prepared, aka no proper boon support, not proper builds etc.

B. players dying to mechanics over and over thus reducing their dps. We know this is the main issue because we also know that given proper boons, just about any build will do 10-15k plus dps on auto attacks alone, which is more than sufficient even for the DE meta

 

So I respectfully disagree with your assessment. Timers are there to provide some kind of fail state and not meeting the dps requirement is NOT due to a to tight timer but in fact a lot of other issues which lead to the timer becoming an issue.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

You know what I see frequently when we do DE meta? Happy people. People who know each other and saying "Hi". We get the victory and we all have a good time. And everyone wants to show up for the next one. That's healthy for the game and it's an enjoyable experience for us

Yeah. People that are happy because most of those filthy casuals stopped showing up. Whenever more of the usual OW crowd does show up, the unhappiness flares again though. It's just it happens less and less because less and less players even bother, leaving that event to only a small circle of self-adoration.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yeah. People that are happy because most of those filthy casuals stopped showing up. Whenever more of the usual OW crowd does show up, the unhappiness flares again though. It's just it happens less and less because less and less players even bother, leaving that event to only a small circle of self-adoration.

Again, that's your baseless assumption based around your own subjective experience.

The higher success rates can just as well be tracked to more players actually improving at the game or preparing properly. We've even had threads on the forums of players complaining that other parts of the game have become "to easy" with all this boon creep.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[yoni.7015]

32 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yeah. People that are happy because most of those filthy casuals stopped showing up. Whenever more of the usual OW crowd does show up, the unhappiness flares again though. It's just it happens less and less because less and less players even bother, leaving that event to only a small circle of self-adoration.

This is based on what? I do the DE meta at least three times a week and there are always a lot of casuals in the group. didn’t you say in the past that you stopped doing the meta? How do you know who shows up and who doesn’t? 
And how do you know that people are happy because there are no casuals? I can assure you that this is not true. Maybe try and stick to the truth. 
I don’t know why you use offensive and demeaning terms like “filthy casuals”, says a lot about you. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Luci.7018]

33 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

This discussion has been had over and over. The main issue at hand is NOT the timer. It's the dps loss due to players:

A. not being well prepared, aka no proper boon support, not proper builds etc.

B. players dying to mechanics over and over thus reducing their dps. We know this is the main issue because we also know that given proper boons, just about any build will do 10-15k plus dps on auto attacks alone, which is more than sufficient even for the DE meta

 

So I respectfully disagree with your assessment. Timers are there to provide some kind of fail state and not meeting the dps requirement is NOT due to a to tight timer but in fact a lot of other issues which lead to the timer becoming an issue.

If we stretch the timer by 1,5-2min , the actual mechanics won't be affected .

Also the goal of distributing  the people(and their boons) into groups , will remain the same , in order to speed up the kill .

The goal to the Overworld is not to create an uber difficult encounter , to magically level-up the major of the population , but to be a progression ground after the Story ,  and then they can join Strikes .

Overworld is the middle-learning ground .

Edited August 22, 2022 by Luci.7018

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Luci.7018 said:

If we stretch the timer by 1,5-2min , the actual mechanics won't be affected .

Also the goal of distributing  the people(and their boons) into groups , will remain the same , in order to speed up the kill .

The goal to the Overworld is not to create an uber difficult encounter , to magically level-up the major of the population , but to be a progression ground after the Story ,  and then they can join Strikes

There is no need to stretch the timer when almost all groups finish the fight with at least five minutes left on the timer. 

[Luci.7018]

9 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

There is no need to stretch the timer when almost all groups finish the fight with at least five minutes left on the timer. 

Astralporing  is right on this one .The majority avoid this meta  .

I know that you want the general population to step up  , but if we repeat the same mistakes and prevent even more people from learning from this mid-lvl progression (Story>Overworld>Strike>Raid>CM Strikes) , we will do more harm than good for the future .

This is why you are wrong here and must never repeat that.

The goal should be the same as CM temple .. learn to do greens + mobility skills + cc + steap away from aoes + rez + not dying all the time . But not strict timers for the mid-progression areas (Overworld) .

 

Edit: If you have played WoW : then the open PvE is equivalent of the WoW  LFD

Edited August 22, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Cyninja.2954]

30 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

If we stretch the timer by 1,5-2min , the actual mechanics won't be affected .

Also the goal of distributing  the people(and their boons) into groups , will remain the same , in order to speed up the kill .

If we stretch the timer by 1-2 minutes, it would still leave groups which fail. So then  we have to stretch the timer again, and again.

The timer is already a non issue in mediocre runs, where there are more than 3-6 minutes spare. In actually good runs, there is often over 7 minutes on the clock.

There would be other ways to implement fail states, most of them you do NOT want over a timer.

Quote

The goal to the Overworld is not to create an uber difficult encounter , to magically level-up the major of the population , but to be a progression ground after the Story ,  and then they can join Strikes .

Overworld is the middle-learning ground .

 

This would be true if this encounter was uber difficult. Alas it is not. There are enough metrics which support the thesis that this encounter is at the higher end of challenging open world content, which still places it far below instanced or any remotely challenging content.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Luci.7018]

56 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If we stretch the timer by 1-2 minutes, it would still leave groups which fail. So then  we have to stretch the timer again, and again.

The timer is already a non issue in mediocre runs, where there are more than 3-6 minutes spare. In actually good runs, there is often over 7 minutes on the clock.

There would be other ways to implement fail states, most of them you do NOT want over a timer.

The goal of the PvE map , is to teach the General Population  to do the mechanics (cc-steap out of cc -rez-don't die - greens) . It's mid-lvl-progression.

 

People doing it over and over  , get used to them and that should be the goal  .

But the timer discourage people from doing it again , that why the majority when they see that dps is low at the entry bosses , they start fishing and give up the event .

While other groups  create groups in a different map so the low-dps-player won't join them

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Luci.7018