I realized one of the biggest problems with EoD final meta

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Having a boss like Soo-Won , have extremly huge amount of hp ,  so they are forced to use LI and then join Raids , is a flawed idea . It should be organically and slowly .

 

Or shutting them to Training guilds to create a "happy community" . They will create a "noobie-like-community" that will be kind to each other , but when they try the lfg and the kp ,then they will come to our conclusion

 

LI builds are not needed for Soo-Won though they certainly help. Builds that make somewhat sense are. You seem to not know the difference.

Your very limited "us versus them" view will hardly be indicative of how things will pan out. You are free to keep believing that though. Good Luck.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

LI builds are not needed for Soo-Won though they certainly help. Builds that make somewhat sense are. You seem to not know the difference.

I was there 6 months ago , when you spammed the forums , that people should use LI

You will do the same for new people in 1 month , and they will come in our coclusion.

That why i must wear my best armro to welcome the new players when tey join our ranks 😛

Edited August 23, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Izzy.2951]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

So if anet wants an open world meta to be something that will be completed by most pug groups and perceived as a meta that will succeed, they need to balance such that the people at the higher end of the curve can carry the people at the lower end of the curve.

What is that balance phylosophy? That people that already know mechanics carry people that dont know yet or are not willing to know? So basically whats the motivation for those "new players" to learn if they are gonna get carried anyway.

Anet should provide tools like the starter hearts in EoD for people to learn, tips, guides whatever. Never to balance things so its a job for the ppl that know how to play to carry the rest always, so they just become leechers in the events.

Its absolutly dumb. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

I was there 6 months ago , when you spammed the forums , that people should use LI

You will do the same for new people in 1 month , and they will come in our coclusion.

That why i must wear my best armro to welcome the new players 😛

I wasn't spamming anything and certainly not in regards to DE, besides giving advice on how to spot a proper lead squad.

Once again, you make 0 sense. Man I wouldn't want to be in your shoes atm with all these new players looking for guidance.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

I wasn't spamming anything and certainly not in regards to DE, besides giving advice on how to spot a proper lead squad.

 

Once again, you make 0 sense. Man I wouldn't want to be in your shoes atm with all these new players looking for guidance.

Thankfully Teapot will take care them, like he does Soo-Won

When we will see results once again in  4 months about the "old people scarring away new" + "people should get in trainning guilds" . But remember , there wont be any other chance 😛

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Thankfully Teapot will take care them, like he does Soo-Won

When we will see results once again in  4 months about the "old people scarring away new" + "people should get in trainning guilds" . But remember , there wont be any other chance 😛

 

You mean an active member of the community reaches out, organizes trainings, creates guide content and prepares to help new players transition into the game? Versus you, who just whines on the forums? Who exactly is the more beneficial one to the game overall? I am very confused as to your personal world view, but then again, I just don't care enough. You be you.

[Izzy.2951]

4 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Thankfully Teapot will take care them, like he does Soo-Won

When we will see results once again in  4 months about the "old people scarring away new" + "people should get in trainning guilds" . But remember , there wont be any other chance 😛

Instead of being 24/7 on the forums why dont you actually create groups and show people how to do the mechanics? learn them yourself if you dont know yet. Join or form training groups for any kind of "hard content". You will do a favor to the community, instead of suggestin nonsense feedback that is just gonna kill the game even more.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

You mean an active member of the community reaches out, organizes trainings, creates guide content and prepares to help new players transition into the game? Versus you, who just whines on the forums? Who exactly is the more beneficial one to the game overall? I am very confused as to your personal world view, but then again, I just don't care enough. You be you.

Yeah active members Trainning groups + Teapot-likes

Not people like some1 , that is  comming in the forums and tell us that  Soo-Won should have a humogous amount of hp , so people are forced to use LI builds and "l2p" .

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Yeah active members Trainning groups + Teapot-likes

They are comming in the forums so we Soo-Won should have a humogous amount of hp , so people are forced to "l2p" te game

 

Ah yes, so you disapprove of it because you don't like the type of player. Interesting, there is a word for such sentiment. You know, when you disapprove of someone different than you? It starts with "r" and ends with "-ist".

 

So, you are not putting in the work yourself, complain about others who bring in players "you don't like" and you complain about it constantly. So very like in real life. Good one.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Ah yes, so you disapprove of it because you don't like the type of player. Interesting, there is a word for such sentiment. You know, when you disapprove of someone different than you? It starts with "r" and ends with "-ist".

 

So, you are not putting in the work yourself, complain about others who bring in players "you don't like" and you complain about it constantly. So very like in real life. Good one.

People like o learn

Forcing them to use LI and git gud , is not learning

But new people will come in the ame coclusion , because you dont understand the problem 😛

[Izzy.2951]

13 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Yeah active members Trainning groups + Teapot-likes

Not people like some1 , that is  comming in the forums and tell us that  Soo-Won should have a humogous amount of hp , so people are forced to use LI builds and "l2p" .

 

Dude you dont see that your on a personal war so they design the game for you, so you dont have to learn anything,. and just show up and leech. Its nonsense. This is like being in a relationship with a toxic person that dont want you to improve and have variety, and u know who you are in the relation.

They added hearts in starting EoD zone so you learn mechanics, they added bosses and normal mode strikes so you learn mechanics, then you have the final boss that uses those mechanics. If you are not willing to do anything, then, at least dont be 24/7 of the forums pressuring Anet and making them think all the community wants this, cos in fact we dont want this, we want variety content and challenges, and yes outside raids too cos we bought this game as challenging not as hello kitty online leeching 2.0. And a lot of players that left this game does not support this. So your just gonna make more and more players leave with this personal war u got.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Labjax.2465]

4 minutes ago, Izzy.2951 said:

What is that balance phylosophy? That people that already know mechanics carry people that dont know yet or are not willing to know? So basically whats the motivation for those "new players" to learn if they are gonna get carried anyway.

Anet should provide tools like the starter hearts in EoD for people to learn, tips, guides whatever. Never to balance things so its a job for the ppl that know how to play to carry the rest always, so they just become leechers in the events.

Its absolutly dumb. 

Kind of? Either anet has to change the design of the game to try to flatten the curve or they have to balance around the curve, if they want popular metas. Whether they want players to be motivated to learn past X arbitrary skill threshold is a whole other question. And I say arbitrary, cause as I've been trying to get at in other posts, even if you skill everybody up 100% tomorrow, there is still going to be the same curve. If you specifically want players who are lower on the curve to be higher, you have to address what's keeping them where they are.

It seems apparent to me that throwing pug breaker metas in front of people's faces isn't "motivation to learn." At least, not to any consistent degree that will make a dent in flattening the curve overall. Instead, it probably just selects for those who are already more min-max minded to begin with and were just lacking some knowledge/skill of this specific game, and scares away those who aren't. I'm forced to do a little extrapolating guesswork on that part, but it seems reasonable as a takeaway if looking at popularity of different metas. Remember that people are not exactly strapped to the chair here. If they don't like the way the game is going in one area or another, they can just avoid it.

Also speaking more generally to "motivation to learn," some people enjoy mastery of a game like this for its own sake and these are probably going to tend to be more the players who make up the higher end of the curve. Some people play for other reasons and they do other hobbies or get it from their career if they want to work on mastery. That's a bit of an oversimplified binary way to put it on my part, but what I'm trying to get at here is that not everybody has the same goals to begin with (which is part of what creates the curve) and anet has to be realistic about that.

[Izzy.2951]

Im done reading and supporting this post. I love DE meta, i think they should make more events like this, it felt perfect (just tuning down the pre-events time for next ones). They provided tools like starting zone hearts, bosses in story/strikes so you learn mechanics and have some kind of learning curve.

If you dont want to learn, to dont be afk in events or just want free stuff, cool (you have 99% of content like that). But let us enjoy the game, dont tell us to go raids, again we bought this game as challenging (and not only in raids), no1 from anet told u that all open world was gonna be 100% easy like the bosses in the starting zones.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Hmmm keep telling yourself that. The good thing is, the things you don't know or understand you won't worry about, until that 4 week new account player starts outperforming you, but then again he is "only playing for dps".

Why would i care? When i was playing football with friends in our backyard, noone of us cared we're not new Maradonas. Nobody aspired to be a new Maradona either (well, not realistically - some might have dreamed of it, but not to the point where they might want to do something in that direction). The fact that there were people playing football on professional level did not make us feel out little game was in any way lacking. That's because the purpose of each was different.

For us, it wasn't Serious Business(TM). We were in it just to have fun.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

and I don't believe that the vast majority of players mirrors that sentiment if given the opportunity to improve.

That's the issue. The game does not give the opportunities to improve. It only gives requirements to improve.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I'm a firm believer in the fact that humans in general enjoy learning and improving and stagnation becomes boring.

Indeed. Learning in general is fun, but there needs to exist a framework for learning, and the stuff you're learning needs to be fun as well. Notice, also, that being forced to learn stuff you consider boring is not something people enjoy either.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The fact that you are fine with stagnation is also okay, I absolutely don't mind. I merely wonder how this will feel when fresh players call this into question and not just us nasty nasty veteran raiders that are the doom of this game, that is all.

Nothing is going to change. I didn;t care who is a new player and who is a veteran in those discussions so far, and i will not care about it in the future. The strength of an argument lies in the argument itself, and not in who is saying it.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I'm not taking any steps. I'm pretty sure the grouping mechanisms in this game will ruffle some feathers. I'm also pretty sure that given the vast amount of resources available, it will be a far smaller issue to train new players versus convincing old players that they are terrible at the game (from a performance perspective).

Yes, it is indeed easier to train new would-be hardcores than old (and new) casuals. It has been so for years. Still, somehow most of the new players did not end up in the hardcore camp. If you haven't noticed, most of the discussions we were participating in on these forums were not started by veterans - they were started by new players.

[yoni.7015]

15 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

That's the issue. The game does not give the opportunities to improve. It only gives requirements to improve.

 

 

The game gives you plenty of opportunities to improve. It’s up to you to use them. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Kind of? Either anet has to change the design of the game to try to flatten the curve or they have to balance around the curve, if they want popular metas. Whether they want players to be motivated to learn past X arbitrary skill threshold is a whole other question. And I say arbitrary, cause as I've been trying to get at in other posts, even if you skill everybody up 100% tomorrow, there is still going to be the same curve. If you specifically want players who are lower on the curve to be higher, you have to address what's keeping them where they are.

It seems apparent to me that throwing pug breaker metas in front of people's faces isn't "motivation to learn." At least, not to any consistent degree that will make a dent in flattening the curve overall. Instead, it probably just selects for those who are already more min-max minded to begin with and were just lacking some knowledge/skill of this specific game, and scares away those who aren't. I'm forced to do a little extrapolating guesswork on that part, but it seems reasonable as a takeaway if looking at popularity of different metas. Remember that people are not exactly strapped to the chair here. If they don't like the way the game is going in one area or another, they can just avoid it.

Also speaking more generally to "motivation to learn," some people enjoy mastery of a game like this for its own sake and these are probably going to tend to be more the players who make up the higher end of the curve. Some people play for other reasons and they do other hobbies or get it from their career if they want to work on mastery. That's a bit of an oversimplified binary way to put it on my part, but what I'm trying to get at here is that not everybody has the same goals to begin with (which is part of what creates the curve) and anet has to be realistic about that.

The fact is the DE meta is popular.  It gets done at all hours despite requiring a full squad and lengthy prep time that makes the time-to-reward ratio pretty low.  Players are participating because they enjoy it and while the players organizing the squads are probably high on the curve, most of the players joining aren't.  

Take a look at this recording of the encounter from my run yesterday.  As is pretty typical of open world squads, most of the damage is being dealt by a few players at the top.  The middle 20 or so are probably DPS roles but are only dealing around a quarter-to-a-third of total damage collectively.  In other words, they probably aren't high on the curve, as you say.  Yet we still succeed with 5 minutes to spare.

Is this an unreasonable level of difficulty for an open world meta?  I don't think it is.  I think average players can freely join a squad like this via LFG just as I did and succeed most of the time as has been my experience.  That a relatively small number of players are organizing the squad, handling the critical mechanics, and providing most of the damage required to beat the timer is nothing specific to this encounter.  You find this in nearly all open world metas.

The only problem I see with this meta is the design of the map which requires players to devote 1.5-2 hours to complete this event.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

The game gives you plenty of opportunities to improve. It’s up to you to use them. 

It's like saying the river gives you an opportunity to learn swimming by flooding your home.

That's not an opportunity. That's merely a forced requirement.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[yoni.7015]

10 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's like saying the river gives you an opportunity to learn swimming by flooding your home.

That's not an opportunity. That's merely a forced requirement.

You wrote that the game offers no opportunities, that’s not true. You may ignore them but that doesn’t mean they are not there. 
 

if you don’t use the opportunities the game offers you, then complaining on the forums 24/7 is all you have left I guess. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Ashen.2907]

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Otherwise, what you get is what happened with EoD. Groups having to select for people at the higher end of the curve to ensure success.

This is not the state of EoD. 

[Astralporing.1957]

31 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

You wrote that the game offers no opportunities, that’s not true. You may ignore them but that doesn’t mean they are not there. 
 

if you don’t use the opportunities the game offers you, then complaining on the forums 24/7 is all you have left I guess. 

No. The game allows you to improve, doesn't prevent you from doing so, and in some places requires you to improve, but at no point does it give you any opportunities to improve. You have to create those completely on your own.

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. The game allows you to improve, doesn't prevent you from doing so, and in some places requires you to improve, but at no point does it give you any opportunities to improve. You have to create those completely on your own.

Still not true but whatever. 
Then tell me what do you want the game to do? Should it hold your hand the entire time you play? 

Edited August 23, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Ashen.2907]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. The game allows you to improve, doesn't prevent you from doing so, and in some places requires you to improve, but at no point does it give you any opportunities to improve. You have to create those completely on your own.

Allowing you to improve is an opportunity to improve. Every time you encounter a mob you have an opportunity to improve over the last time you encountered a mob.

[Cuks.8241]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. The game allows you to improve, doesn't prevent you from doing so, and in some places requires you to improve, but at no point does it give you any opportunities to improve. You have to create those completely on your own.

What would be your solution? In-game DPS meter comes to my mind. 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Allowing you to improve is an opportunity to improve. Every time you encounter a mob you have an opportunity to improve over the last time you encountered a mob.

Let's just say that i disagree with you on your way too wide interpretation of what "opportunity" means. Mere existence of a river or lake is not by itself an opportunity to learn swimming.

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

they need to balance such that the people at the higher end of the curve can carry the people at the lower end of the curve.

Quite literally "let me leech and get rewarded for other players carrying me" 🤦‍♂️  Now that's a... rich take.

Maybe worry about balancing the difficulty curve as the players go forward through the game (which is already improved when compared to the previous years btw), so the players focus on improving instead of slacking and "letting others carry me to rewards".

Edited August 23, 2022 by Sobx.1758