Stop the powercreep

[Duzik.9137]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@apharma.3741 said:It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

30k with buffs that triple your damage means 10k without them, or at very best 15k-20k with good self buffs. Benchmarks use buffs that triple your damage, and apply only one stationary kitten targets. Honestly the dps potential of a Staff Weaver is abysmal low in PVP even if you go full damage.

Weaver is not dps , weaver is meme

[ZhouX.8742]

@apharma.3741 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:As far as pve goes, assuming Anet will change their politics regarding class balance and start to use common sense, it might indeed make some pve'ers not so happy as it will obviously make some raid encounters tiny bit harder since spells may not be overloaded/strong as much anymore. I don't see how it could be a problem however, since it has been proven many times that with correct play you can kill the boss with less than 10 players under the time limit.

There is no build in PVE that deals way too much damage, the numbers you see on the benchmarks are achieved using all the buffs available, which triples the damage output. Divide the damage by a factor of 3, or 2 based on build, to find the real damage those builds deal, because in PVP you won't have perma Alacrity, banners, spirits, 25 stacks of Might and Fury all at the same time. In solo instances and in regular PVE you won't achieve those numbers either.So it's perfectly fine to nerf the damage of certain skills, the damage buffs will make up for the difference anyway.

This is not entirely correct. Some classes can self blast and maintain perma fury and might solo, some classes can get perma fury from a single trait and stack might too in PvP which is the biggest part of the damage. Also the benchmarks are generally not done with all the buffs, they’re done with the buffs that are realistically expected in a raid group, back when raids weren’t quite mirror comp GotL was set at 4 stacks not 5, now it will be tested without if anyone cares to do so just as power builds may not include empower allies anymore as there’s no guarantee you will have it anymore but will have both banners.

It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

The biggest part of the damage in PvE is alacrity and dmg rotating very specific full dmg output combos without taking survivability into account around that and quickness modifiers alongside dmg % modifiers with food and abnormal gear combos (weird from a pvp perspective), gearing your character up to be complete condi expertise, traiting specifically FOR condi damage and little around survivability - something also not do-able in PvP except Scourge ... There are many things that make the damage what it is in PvE or PvP.

If you're referring to balancing classes in PvP because you feel damage is over the top in PvE and at the same time disregarding my above paragraph then you are part of the reason , alongside Anet's incompetent strategy of trying to balance 3 entirely different game modes that this game can never be balanced properly, ever. It's already hard to balance one game mode alone, doing 3 is just too much work.

PvE should be left alone from what occurs in terms of balancing in PvP and vice versa , in fact you should have something like a tool tips on weapons/traits/utilities/skills with different stats and abilities entirely for each game mode but this is too hard for the balance team at this point. They can barely get a minor patch out every 6 months.

This game mode for the most part is over, expecting anything more from it in terms of actual balance will continually leave you dissapointed.

[Rap Tiger.1257]

the problem is not powercreep but yes conditioncreep

[Aza.2105]

I found this thread from 2012 near the time when the game first launched.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf

For those who don't wan to read, its basically lots of players complaining about backstab damage. I think at the time it was common to see a 5-8k hit. Anet went through steps to nerf thief damage output. Assassins signet was nerfed from a 50% dmg output into what we see now. Apparently Anet understood that large hits that can do so much damage in one hit wasn't good for the game.

Some may wonder....what does this have to do with today? Everything really. During the last 5 years base health has remained the same for all classes. 11k, 15k, 19k. But during the last 5 years damage has slowly increased. Conditions do more than the old thief back stab within a couple seconds and there are skills that can hit from 14k-22k. Which is well over doubled the lowest health tier. My point is something is very wrong and most people will agree.

Players do not have the health of raid bosses, yet the amount of damage that is being put out suggests that they should. Maybe the solution would be to double the base health tiers for pvp only. 22k, 30k and 38k. Support like FB would have to be toned down though. Also in the beginning of the games life span, boons weren't as common. Certain classes had low access to boons. While now every class usually has half a row of boons on them which are generated through skills and passives.

Its impossible to go back to what gw2 was in the beginning. So the question is what can be done moving forward which could have a positive impact on the game? I think increasing base health in pvp could be a positive start but that would open the door for other issues as well. On the opposite end of the spectrum, having invul skills or dodging shouldn't be the solution to not being one shot by everything around you.

[Enigmoid.1264]

@Aza.2105 said:

Players do not have the health of raid bosses, yet the amount of damage that is being put out suggests that they should. Maybe the solution would be to double the base health tiers for pvp only. 22k, 30k and 38k. Support like FB would have to be toned down though. Also in the beginning of the games life span, boons weren't as common. Certain classes had low access to boons. While now every class usually has half a row of boons on them which are generated through skills and passives.

Not a bad idea but a good chunk of balance issues stem from the fact that

1. Damage has been greatly buffed from launch levels.
2. Damage has been normalized (attempted) between classes because of raids.
3. Health pools have remained the same.

The solution would be (as long a split balance is avoided) not only to increase health pools but to normalize them a bit as well (say 22k, 26, 28k). If everyone is going to be outputting relatively similar damage then professions that are designed around facetanking the damage while maintaining pressure are going to overpower professions that are designed around evasion (or the like) and windows of opportunity. You can easily seen this in the necro/ele divide. Ele, despite having absolute stupid damage in PvE never could compete well because in PvP it had to give up so much of that damage to obtain decent sustain. Necro, with its stupid levels of sustain, was never given significant damage. Anet is caught up in their 'picture of the professions' and refuse to address this simple solution; if you want to equalize damage between the professions you need to equalize sustain AT THAT DAMAGE LEVEL.

[OriOri.8724]

@apharma.3741 said:The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

I don't think this is the best way to nerf damage, but it would probably be the easiest honestly. Reducing the amount of things that skills do would be a healthier way to nerf skills and traits in this game, and then after that is done ANet can look at reducing the power damage and condi application of skills further (number of stacks). Also nerfing concentration and expertise to make it harder to keep permanent boon uptime would help out as well, but probably not that much.

[Cynz.9437]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

I don't think this is the best way to nerf damage, but it would probably be the easiest honestly. Reducing the amount of things that skills do would be a healthier way to nerf skills and traits in this game, and then after that is done ANet can look at reducing the power damage and condi application of skills further (number of stacks). Also nerfing concentration and expertise to make it harder to keep permanent boon uptime would help out as well, but probably not that much.

This is one of rare instance when i agree with Ori.

[reukies.6418]

@Cynz.9437 said:It is probably futile at this point but assume that not only i am sick and tired of constantly increasing powercreep. The constant in almost all patches was that Anet's solution for something broken is to add something even more broken.

Prime example is current scourges. Yes they are broken to certain extend but one can also argue they are needed to all the boon spam in this game.

The issue is, that instead of toning down overtuned spells/traits/passives etc. that grant way too many boons way too frequently on certain classes Anet chose to add more boon corruption. So now we have necros rampaging everywhere murdering anything and everyone that dares to get close to the point. Fine. What will happen next? Another buff that prevents your boons from being corrupted like it was with resistance to counter condis? And then some spells ignoring those buffs, preferably with as many sparkles and sprinkles as possible? How far is balancing team willing to go actually? Look at your average fight on point in pvp at the moment. Can anyone even tell wth is going on anymore?

I am sure traits/spells all can be toned down safely without denying average Joe his weekly raid kills.

Couldn't agree more, Scourge are OP as fuck. But what makes them really OP is all the boons they can corrupt. Scourge needs a nerf in damage in PvP (but either not too much or give them the "heavy support" they were promised), but so does all the boons people get on classes. Someone in another thread mentioned how guardian was a class that was mean't to be able to have lots of boons, but now almost everything and their mothers have boons for days.

[Razor.6392]

So many classes can easily obtain 25 might stacks without even trying. Others spam boons like there's no tomorrow. Looking at you herald and anything engi.

[apharma.3741]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

I don't think this is the best way to nerf damage, but it would probably be the easiest honestly. Reducing the amount of things that skills do would be a healthier way to nerf skills and traits in this game, and then after that is done ANet can look at reducing the power damage and condi application of skills further (number of stacks). Also nerfing concentration and expertise to make it harder to keep permanent boon uptime would help out as well, but probably not that much.

Yes I was factoring the relative ease of actually implementing it, ofc the ideal is a complete skill to skill look, reduction in the number of things each skill and trait does as well as reductions in modifiers and condition durations. That would take a year at least and this is assuming a balance team exclusively focusing on balance and pushing out patches every 3-4 weeks so they can gather feedback. At ANets 6 patches a year and creating metas strategy we’re probably looking at...anyone know when the end of time is?

[apharma.3741]

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:As far as pve goes, assuming Anet will change their politics regarding class balance and start to use common sense, it might indeed make some pve'ers not so happy as it will obviously make some raid encounters tiny bit harder since spells may not be overloaded/strong as much anymore. I don't see how it could be a problem however, since it has been proven many times that with correct play you can kill the boss with less than 10 players under the time limit.

There is no build in PVE that deals way too much damage, the numbers you see on the benchmarks are achieved using all the buffs available, which triples the damage output. Divide the damage by a factor of 3, or 2 based on build, to find the real damage those builds deal, because in PVP you won't have perma Alacrity, banners, spirits, 25 stacks of Might and Fury all at the same time. In solo instances and in regular PVE you won't achieve those numbers either.So it's perfectly fine to nerf the damage of certain skills, the damage buffs will make up for the difference anyway.

This is not entirely correct. Some classes can self blast and maintain perma fury and might solo, some classes can get perma fury from a single trait and stack might too in PvP which is the biggest part of the damage. Also the benchmarks are generally not done with all the buffs, they’re done with the buffs that are realistically expected in a raid group, back when raids weren’t quite mirror comp GotL was set at 4 stacks not 5, now it will be tested without if anyone cares to do so just as power builds may not include empower allies anymore as there’s no guarantee you will have it anymore but will have both banners.

It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

The biggest part of the damage in PvE is alacrity and dmg rotating very specific full dmg output combos without taking survivability into account around that and quickness modifiers alongside dmg % modifiers with food and abnormal gear combos (weird from a pvp perspective), gearing your character up to be complete condi expertise, traiting specifically FOR condi damage and little around survivability - something also not do-able in PvP except Scourge ... There are many things that make the damage what it is in PvE or PvP.

If you're referring to balancing classes in PvP because you feel damage is over the top in PvE and at the same time disregarding my above paragraph then you are part of the reason , alongside Anet's incompetent strategy of trying to balance 3 entirely different game modes that this game can never be balanced properly, ever. It's already hard to balance one game mode alone, doing 3 is just too much work.

PvE should be left alone from what occurs in terms of balancing in PvP and vice versa , in fact you should have something like a tool tips on weapons/traits/utilities/skills with different stats and abilities entirely for each game mode but this is too hard for the balance team at this point. They can barely get a minor patch out every 6 months.

This game mode for the most part is over, expecting anything more from it in terms of actual balance will continually leave you dissapointed.

I think you need to read what that was a reply to. Someone was claiming the real damage of each class is it’s PvE benchmark divided by 2 or 3 which is definitely not the case as many different things factor into a classes PvE dps as you say, they’re all full damage and 0 survivability. I also disagreed with them that there’s no such thing as too much damage in PvE. There certainly is, when classes do so much damage that the content becomes trivial it loses any meaning in completion with only challenge modes or achievemnts worth doing which would be easier too. The game loses all meaning when any sense of challenge is removed.

[Dreams.3128]

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:As far as pve goes, assuming Anet will change their politics regarding class balance and start to use common sense, it might indeed make some pve'ers not so happy as it will obviously make some raid encounters tiny bit harder since spells may not be overloaded/strong as much anymore. I don't see how it could be a problem however, since it has been proven many times that with correct play you can kill the boss with less than 10 players under the time limit.

There is no build in PVE that deals way too much damage, the numbers you see on the benchmarks are achieved using all the buffs available, which triples the damage output. Divide the damage by a factor of 3, or 2 based on build, to find the real damage those builds deal, because in PVP you won't have perma Alacrity, banners, spirits, 25 stacks of Might and Fury all at the same time. In solo instances and in regular PVE you won't achieve those numbers either.So it's perfectly fine to nerf the damage of certain skills, the damage buffs will make up for the difference anyway.

This is not entirely correct. Some classes can self blast and maintain perma fury and might solo, some classes can get perma fury from a single trait and stack might too in PvP which is the biggest part of the damage. Also the benchmarks are generally not done with all the buffs, they’re done with the buffs that are realistically expected in a raid group, back when raids weren’t quite mirror comp GotL was set at 4 stacks not 5, now it will be tested without if anyone cares to do so just as power builds may not include empower allies anymore as there’s no guarantee you will have it anymore but will have both banners.

It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

The biggest part of the damage in PvE is alacrity and dmg rotating very specific full dmg output combos without taking survivability into account around that and quickness modifiers alongside dmg % modifiers with food and abnormal gear combos (weird from a pvp perspective), gearing your character up to be complete condi expertise, traiting specifically FOR condi damage and little around survivability - something also not do-able in PvP except Scourge ... There are many things that make the damage what it is in PvE or PvP.

If you're referring to balancing classes in PvP because you feel damage is over the top in PvE and at the same time disregarding my above paragraph then you are part of the reason , alongside Anet's incompetent strategy of trying to balance 3 entirely different game modes that this game can never be balanced properly, ever. It's already hard to balance one game mode alone, doing 3 is just too much work.

PvE should be left alone from what occurs in terms of balancing in PvP and vice versa , in fact you should have something like a tool tips on weapons/traits/utilities/skills with different stats and abilities entirely for each game mode but this is too hard for the balance team at this point. They can barely get a minor patch out every 6 months.

This game mode for the most part is over, expecting anything more from it in terms of actual balance will continually leave you dissapointed.

I think you need to read what that was a reply to. Someone was claiming the real damage of each class is it’s PvE benchmark divided by 2 or 3 which is definitely not the case as many different things factor into a classes PvE dps as you say, they’re all full damage and 0 survivability. I also disagreed with them that there’s no such thing as too much damage in PvE. There certainly is, when classes do so much damage that the content becomes trivial it loses any meaning in completion with only challenge modes or achievemnts worth doing which would be easier too. The game loses all meaning when any sense of challenge is removed.

When you can complete an Arah path in less than an hour compared to back in the day when you had to dedicate a full hour and some change for it?

Something is definitely wrong and the damage scalings are most definitely going up.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:As far as pve goes, assuming Anet will change their politics regarding class balance and start to use common sense, it might indeed make some pve'ers not so happy as it will obviously make some raid encounters tiny bit harder since spells may not be overloaded/strong as much anymore. I don't see how it could be a problem however, since it has been proven many times that with correct play you can kill the boss with less than 10 players under the time limit.

There is no build in PVE that deals way too much damage, the numbers you see on the benchmarks are achieved using all the buffs available, which triples the damage output. Divide the damage by a factor of 3, or 2 based on build, to find the real damage those builds deal, because in PVP you won't have perma Alacrity, banners, spirits, 25 stacks of Might and Fury all at the same time. In solo instances and in regular PVE you won't achieve those numbers either.So it's perfectly fine to nerf the damage of certain skills, the damage buffs will make up for the difference anyway.

This is not entirely correct. Some classes can self blast and maintain perma fury and might solo, some classes can get perma fury from a single trait and stack might too in PvP which is the biggest part of the damage. Also the benchmarks are generally not done with all the buffs, they’re done with the buffs that are realistically expected in a raid group, back when raids weren’t quite mirror comp GotL was set at 4 stacks not 5, now it will be tested without if anyone cares to do so just as power builds may not include empower allies anymore as there’s no guarantee you will have it anymore but will have both banners.

It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

The biggest part of the damage in PvE is alacrity and dmg rotating very specific full dmg output combos without taking survivability into account around that and quickness modifiers alongside dmg % modifiers with food and abnormal gear combos (weird from a pvp perspective), gearing your character up to be complete condi expertise, traiting specifically FOR condi damage and little around survivability - something also not do-able in PvP except Scourge ... There are many things that make the damage what it is in PvE or PvP.

If you're referring to balancing classes in PvP because you feel damage is over the top in PvE and at the same time disregarding my above paragraph then you are part of the reason , alongside Anet's incompetent strategy of trying to balance 3 entirely different game modes that this game can never be balanced properly, ever. It's already hard to balance one game mode alone, doing 3 is just too much work.

PvE should be left alone from what occurs in terms of balancing in PvP and vice versa , in fact you should have something like a tool tips on weapons/traits/utilities/skills with different stats and abilities entirely for each game mode but this is too hard for the balance team at this point. They can barely get a minor patch out every 6 months.

This game mode for the most part is over, expecting anything more from it in terms of actual balance will continually leave you dissapointed.

I think you need to read what that was a reply to. Someone was claiming the real damage of each class is it’s PvE benchmark divided by 2 or 3 which is definitely not the case as many different things factor into a classes PvE dps as you say, they’re all full damage and 0 survivability. I also disagreed with them that there’s no such thing as too much damage in PvE. There certainly is, when classes do so much damage that the content becomes trivial it loses any meaning in completion with only challenge modes or achievemnts worth doing which would be easier too. The game loses all meaning when any sense of challenge is removed.

When you can complete an Arah path in less than an hour compared to back in the day when you had to dedicate a full hour and some change for it?

Something is definitely wrong and the damage scalings are most definitely going up.

Or you simply got better at the game which had nothing to do with your build.

[apharma.3741]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:As far as pve goes, assuming Anet will change their politics regarding class balance and start to use common sense, it might indeed make some pve'ers not so happy as it will obviously make some raid encounters tiny bit harder since spells may not be overloaded/strong as much anymore. I don't see how it could be a problem however, since it has been proven many times that with correct play you can kill the boss with less than 10 players under the time limit.

There is no build in PVE that deals way too much damage, the numbers you see on the benchmarks are achieved using all the buffs available, which triples the damage output. Divide the damage by a factor of 3, or 2 based on build, to find the real damage those builds deal, because in PVP you won't have perma Alacrity, banners, spirits, 25 stacks of Might and Fury all at the same time. In solo instances and in regular PVE you won't achieve those numbers either.So it's perfectly fine to nerf the damage of certain skills, the damage buffs will make up for the difference anyway.

This is not entirely correct. Some classes can self blast and maintain perma fury and might solo, some classes can get perma fury from a single trait and stack might too in PvP which is the biggest part of the damage. Also the benchmarks are generally not done with all the buffs, they’re done with the buffs that are realistically expected in a raid group, back when raids weren’t quite mirror comp GotL was set at 4 stacks not 5, now it will be tested without if anyone cares to do so just as power builds may not include empower allies anymore as there’s no guarantee you will have it anymore but will have both banners.

It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

The biggest part of the damage in PvE is alacrity and dmg rotating very specific full dmg output combos without taking survivability into account around that and quickness modifiers alongside dmg % modifiers with food and abnormal gear combos (weird from a pvp perspective), gearing your character up to be complete condi expertise, traiting specifically FOR condi damage and little around survivability - something also not do-able in PvP except Scourge ... There are many things that make the damage what it is in PvE or PvP.

If you're referring to balancing classes in PvP because you feel damage is over the top in PvE and at the same time disregarding my above paragraph then you are part of the reason , alongside Anet's incompetent strategy of trying to balance 3 entirely different game modes that this game can never be balanced properly, ever. It's already hard to balance one game mode alone, doing 3 is just too much work.

PvE should be left alone from what occurs in terms of balancing in PvP and vice versa , in fact you should have something like a tool tips on weapons/traits/utilities/skills with different stats and abilities entirely for each game mode but this is too hard for the balance team at this point. They can barely get a minor patch out every 6 months.

This game mode for the most part is over, expecting anything more from it in terms of actual balance will continually leave you dissapointed.

I think you need to read what that was a reply to. Someone was claiming the real damage of each class is it’s PvE benchmark divided by 2 or 3 which is definitely not the case as many different things factor into a classes PvE dps as you say, they’re all full damage and 0 survivability. I also disagreed with them that there’s no such thing as too much damage in PvE. There certainly is, when classes do so much damage that the content becomes trivial it loses any meaning in completion with only challenge modes or achievemnts worth doing which would be easier too. The game loses all meaning when any sense of challenge is removed.

When you can complete an Arah path in less than an hour compared to back in the day when you had to dedicate a full hour and some change for it?

Something is definitely wrong and the damage scalings are most definitely going up.

My friends and I could do Arah P4 in less than half an hour fairly casually including with bugs before HoT, now Arah is a joke, all paths. Lupi used to be this proud guardian of the path allowing progress to those with a clue about what to do, now he's just a soggy biscuit ready to crumble into the gaping maw of powercreeped dps.

On topic most skills with HoT do too much same with trait, there are traits that do 2 or 3 things, each trait should do 1 and only 1 thing, preferably consistently without having to shove in ICDs over 1s.

[Dreams.3128]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:As far as pve goes, assuming Anet will change their politics regarding class balance and start to use common sense, it might indeed make some pve'ers not so happy as it will obviously make some raid encounters tiny bit harder since spells may not be overloaded/strong as much anymore. I don't see how it could be a problem however, since it has been proven many times that with correct play you can kill the boss with less than 10 players under the time limit.

There is no build in PVE that deals way too much damage, the numbers you see on the benchmarks are achieved using all the buffs available, which triples the damage output. Divide the damage by a factor of 3, or 2 based on build, to find the real damage those builds deal, because in PVP you won't have perma Alacrity, banners, spirits, 25 stacks of Might and Fury all at the same time. In solo instances and in regular PVE you won't achieve those numbers either.So it's perfectly fine to nerf the damage of certain skills, the damage buffs will make up for the difference anyway.

This is not entirely correct. Some classes can self blast and maintain perma fury and might solo, some classes can get perma fury from a single trait and stack might too in PvP which is the biggest part of the damage. Also the benchmarks are generally not done with all the buffs, they’re done with the buffs that are realistically expected in a raid group, back when raids weren’t quite mirror comp GotL was set at 4 stacks not 5, now it will be tested without if anyone cares to do so just as power builds may not include empower allies anymore as there’s no guarantee you will have it anymore but will have both banners.

It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

The biggest part of the damage in PvE is alacrity and dmg rotating very specific full dmg output combos without taking survivability into account around that and quickness modifiers alongside dmg % modifiers with food and abnormal gear combos (weird from a pvp perspective), gearing your character up to be complete condi expertise, traiting specifically FOR condi damage and little around survivability - something also not do-able in PvP except Scourge ... There are many things that make the damage what it is in PvE or PvP.

If you're referring to balancing classes in PvP because you feel damage is over the top in PvE and at the same time disregarding my above paragraph then you are part of the reason , alongside Anet's incompetent strategy of trying to balance 3 entirely different game modes that this game can never be balanced properly, ever. It's already hard to balance one game mode alone, doing 3 is just too much work.

PvE should be left alone from what occurs in terms of balancing in PvP and vice versa , in fact you should have something like a tool tips on weapons/traits/utilities/skills with different stats and abilities entirely for each game mode but this is too hard for the balance team at this point. They can barely get a minor patch out every 6 months.

This game mode for the most part is over, expecting anything more from it in terms of actual balance will continually leave you dissapointed.

I think you need to read what that was a reply to. Someone was claiming the real damage of each class is it’s PvE benchmark divided by 2 or 3 which is definitely not the case as many different things factor into a classes PvE dps as you say, they’re all full damage and 0 survivability. I also disagreed with them that there’s no such thing as too much damage in PvE. There certainly is, when classes do so much damage that the content becomes trivial it loses any meaning in completion with only challenge modes or achievemnts worth doing which would be easier too. The game loses all meaning when any sense of challenge is removed.

When you can complete an Arah path in less than an hour compared to back in the day when you had to dedicate a full hour and some change for it?

Something is definitely wrong and the damage scalings are most definitely going up.

Or you simply got better at the game which had nothing to do with your build.

Lol that's funny.All the stealthed paths and skips people /needed/ to take to do things in a timely manner are not needed.It is faster for you to kill the elite mobs now, then it is to stealth and move. They feel like regular mob creeps now.That is not paying homeage to skills, that is a blalant reliance on the powercreep that has swept through all of the classes.Which is why Anet abandoned it, because the 'harder' dungeons or aka fractals were tweaked to handle the newer mechanics and power scaling. Dungeons did not.

They could easily do it in any other part of the game. They are /choosing/ not to. So how can you say that is even skill anymore?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:As far as pve goes, assuming Anet will change their politics regarding class balance and start to use common sense, it might indeed make some pve'ers not so happy as it will obviously make some raid encounters tiny bit harder since spells may not be overloaded/strong as much anymore. I don't see how it could be a problem however, since it has been proven many times that with correct play you can kill the boss with less than 10 players under the time limit.

There is no build in PVE that deals way too much damage, the numbers you see on the benchmarks are achieved using all the buffs available, which triples the damage output. Divide the damage by a factor of 3, or 2 based on build, to find the real damage those builds deal, because in PVP you won't have perma Alacrity, banners, spirits, 25 stacks of Might and Fury all at the same time. In solo instances and in regular PVE you won't achieve those numbers either.So it's perfectly fine to nerf the damage of certain skills, the damage buffs will make up for the difference anyway.

This is not entirely correct. Some classes can self blast and maintain perma fury and might solo, some classes can get perma fury from a single trait and stack might too in PvP which is the biggest part of the damage. Also the benchmarks are generally not done with all the buffs, they’re done with the buffs that are realistically expected in a raid group, back when raids weren’t quite mirror comp GotL was set at 4 stacks not 5, now it will be tested without if anyone cares to do so just as power builds may not include empower allies anymore as there’s no guarantee you will have it anymore but will have both banners.

It’s also not true that no build in PvE does too much damage, most raid builds at launch of raids were in the 30k mark, most damage builds have been pushed up to 37k, that’s a very substantial increase and given older raids were not too hard with 30k potential dps from 4 dps classes now we are in a 6 dps class each having a potential of 37k they are all objectively too strong.

The best way to tone down damage is to flat nerf every single skill by a percentage across every single class but that would be a huge undertaking. It would however be much more balanced and slow the game down a little bit. You’ll still get people crying and saying it’s an unjust specific nerf to their class though.

The biggest part of the damage in PvE is alacrity and dmg rotating very specific full dmg output combos without taking survivability into account around that and quickness modifiers alongside dmg % modifiers with food and abnormal gear combos (weird from a pvp perspective), gearing your character up to be complete condi expertise, traiting specifically FOR condi damage and little around survivability - something also not do-able in PvP except Scourge ... There are many things that make the damage what it is in PvE or PvP.

If you're referring to balancing classes in PvP because you feel damage is over the top in PvE and at the same time disregarding my above paragraph then you are part of the reason , alongside Anet's incompetent strategy of trying to balance 3 entirely different game modes that this game can never be balanced properly, ever. It's already hard to balance one game mode alone, doing 3 is just too much work.

PvE should be left alone from what occurs in terms of balancing in PvP and vice versa , in fact you should have something like a tool tips on weapons/traits/utilities/skills with different stats and abilities entirely for each game mode but this is too hard for the balance team at this point. They can barely get a minor patch out every 6 months.

This game mode for the most part is over, expecting anything more from it in terms of actual balance will continually leave you dissapointed.

I think you need to read what that was a reply to. Someone was claiming the real damage of each class is it’s PvE benchmark divided by 2 or 3 which is definitely not the case as many different things factor into a classes PvE dps as you say, they’re all full damage and 0 survivability. I also disagreed with them that there’s no such thing as too much damage in PvE. There certainly is, when classes do so much damage that the content becomes trivial it loses any meaning in completion with only challenge modes or achievemnts worth doing which would be easier too. The game loses all meaning when any sense of challenge is removed.

When you can complete an Arah path in less than an hour compared to back in the day when you had to dedicate a full hour and some change for it?

Something is definitely wrong and the damage scalings are most definitely going up.

Or you simply got better at the game which had nothing to do with your build.

Lol that's funny.All the stealthed paths and skips people /needed/ to take to do things in a timely manner are not needed.It is faster for you to kill the elite mobs now, then it is to stealth and move. They feel like regular mob creeps now.That is not paying homeage to skills, that is a blalant reliance on the powercreep that has swept through all of the classes.Which is why Anet abandoned it, because the 'harder' dungeons or aka fractals were tweaked to handle the newer mechanics and power scaling. Dungeons did not.

They could easily do it in any other part of the game. They are /choosing/ not to. So how can you say that is even skill anymore?

Taking over an hour to do an Arah path before HoT meant that the group was bad or just new. Completing it them in under an hour isn’t necessarily because of perceived power creep. I’m hesitant to attribute power creep unless there’s a before and after comparison with all other factors the same.