Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) Gw2 is a horizontal mmorpg, always has been and is targeting the demographic that enjoys this type of content. Youj dont seem to understand that from a design perspective your need to have a repeatable piece of solo instance content does not work, even ignoring the opportunity cost. Again:1 instance, 1 boss, limited mechanics. that is poor content. Do you really think you would spend days/weeks/months doing this content? ofc not, it would be a dead man walking on day 1. now say you are an Anet designer - looking at the player base and demographic, do you design group content/ open world content (95% of which can be solo anyway) that you know the demographic wants, or do you target a niche with solo content that will be boring after limited playthrough as it has limited mechanics and deterministic gameplay, Edited January 8, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vares.8457 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) On 1/5/2023 at 1:35 PM, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: We also know that Open World (read, playable solo) content is hugely popular within the GW2 community. But what is the most popular content in open world? Meta events, farm trains and other things that you play with others. Solo instanced content would be a huge failure and very unpopular. Most would play it once to get the achievements and then never return, just like story. Edited January 8, 2023 by vares.8457 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biziut.3594 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 2 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: lol wth, you wade in to a conversation with a random toxic comment to counter the fact people are calling out toxicity?! all of which has nothing to do with the thread and ironically proves the opposite looking at your thread history. Do not let him get over your head. Check Tumblr link he have in his description. He is the very definition of "toxicness", but he is supposed to be pitied and sent to a doctor, not scorned. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTestAuto.9108 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: Again:1 instance, 1 boss, limited mechanics. that is poor content. Do you really think you would spend days/weeks/months doing this content? ofc not, it would be a dead man walking on day 1. You not personally liking the idea is not something you can generalise. I could also argue (if I wanted to, but as I've said, I like the group content in GW2), that single player fights would be more interesting that the "stack and hit" combat that the majority of group content represents. Managing heals and your own support, experimenting with new builds and classes, actually having to engage with mechanics rather than just rely on the healers. Regardless though, and again, your exact same argument would apply to the current version of strikes. As well as a ton of other games/activities that people play repeatedly. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTestAuto.9108 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 57 minutes ago, vares.8457 said: But what is the most popular content in open world? Meta events, farm trains and other things that you play with others. Solo instanced content would be a huge failure and very unpopular. Most would play it once to get the achievements and then never return, just like story. The content where you see the most people is meta events and farm trains, but obviously there's a reason for that beyond popularity. They're specifically designed to have a lot of people in the same place. Whether meta events are more popular (according to whatever metric) than world completion and story. Honestly not sure. In terms of repetition, sure. But in terms of time played? Or in terms of what sells? The marketing focusses way more on world and story I'd say. Maybe most people wouldn't want this, but so what? Do most people like fishing? Or raids? Or JPs? Or strikes? Or T4 fractals? Or CMs? Or the maid outfit? The game doesn't cater to "majority must want this or it doesn't exist", it caters to a variety of tastes and things to offer. This is a really low cost way to introduce a completely new thing to do, that at least some people want. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: In my ideal world, I'd actually prefer for strikes and dungeons to just scale from 1-5 (with some difficulty increases other than bigger health pools). As I've said, I enjoy group content, I just also want it to be available solo. This is the issue. You are correct that story intances don't restrict you to a set number of players, but strike missions etc. do. (to a degree) "I enjoy group content, now if only it wasn't a group content"? Again, plenty of harder stuff to do solo. You can solo drms, dungeons, low fractals, bounties, other world bosses and so on. No reason not to do it and yet, here you are, claiming you like group content while actively vouching specifically to make group content into solo. Well: "This seems weirdly disingenuous." Edited January 8, 2023 by Sobx.1758 4 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) Thread is weird. The more capable you are, the more content in this game is soloable. Edited January 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: You not personally liking the idea is not something you can generalise. I could also argue (if I wanted to, but as I've said, I like the group content in GW2), that single player fights would be more interesting that the "stack and hit" combat that the majority of group content represents. Managing heals and your own support, experimenting with new builds and classes, actually having to engage with mechanics rather than just rely on the healers. Regardless though, and again, your exact same argument would apply to the current version of strikes. As well as a ton of other games/activities that people play repeatedly. Ok so you don't understand what is meant by deterministic. You also seem to be struggling to understand the argument of opportunity cost. Cant really help here, you need to educate yourself, your argument comes down to 'i like stuff' without evaluating impact/cost/lifecycle of content.. BTW If the content was free from a resourcing perspective I would like it as a temp side activity and dabble for a bit, you are the one that is generalising and apparently ignoring the demographic targeted for this game. Edited January 8, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTestAuto.9108 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: Ok so you don't understand what is meant by deterministic. Yes, I do. Indeterminacy is not an essential requirement of fun, even for repeatable content. Most jumping puzzles don't even move, let alone randomly. 3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: You also seem to be struggling to understand the argument of opportunity cost. Cant really help here, you need to educate yourself, your argument comes down to 'i like stuff' without evaluating impact/cost/lifecycle of content.. Okay, I'll do my best to stay polite in response to this, as I am literally advocating for the cheapest way to implement the feature I'm talking about, specifically out of consideration for opportunity cost. 7 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: BTW If the content was free from a resourcing perspective I would like it as a temp side activity and dabble for a bit, you are the one that is generalising and apparently ignoring the demographic targeted for this game. No, you? I'm not even sure what to do with this bit. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) so if you understand determinacy you will understand the difference between an entirely scripted piece of solo content with 1 player and group content with content tailored for such and the impact of human agency and behaviour and dynamic interaction. You have also not really advocated anything, you have called out content and it has been explained to death why it makes no sense, i.e again: - solo strikes makes no sense, its just a champion in an instance. - 95% of the game is soloable already. Maybe it would help if you described how this content would actually look and be cost effective? Edited January 8, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 29 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Thread is weird. The more capable you are, the more content in this game is soloable. Why is there no harder soloable content in the game? There is, this, that and that. Noo, not like that, turn the group content into a solo one! 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTestAuto.9108 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 12 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: so if you understand determinacy you will understand the difference between an entirely scripted piece of solo content with 1 player and group content with content tailored for such and the impact of human agency and behaviour and dynamic interaction. Yes, I do. Thank you for summarising. 13 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: - solo strikes makes no sense, its just a champion in an instance. They do make sense. They're just a champion in an instance. It's actually a bit odd that you'd be confused given you have yourself identified the simplicity of the concept. 13 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: - 95% of the game is soloable already. Yup. Though not relevant, as is explained in the thread title. Okay, we seem to have gone over the key points here, so I think we're done? 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: Yes, I do. Thank you for summarising. They do make sense. They're just a champion in an instance. It's actually a bit odd that you'd be confused given you have yourself identified the simplicity of the concept. Yup. Though not relevant, as is explained in the thread title. Okay, we seem to have gone over the key points here, so I think we're done? oh i'm not confused, you recognise finally what was said about a million posts ago, a champion in an instance which is a solvable deterministic piece of content as its solo. This is a non starter and turgid content, which is kind of the point. is that what you really want? Edited January 8, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 9 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: They do make sense. They're just a champion in an instance. It's actually a bit odd that you'd be confused given you have yourself identified the simplicity of the concept. If you want to solo a champion, you can already do it, grab that bounty and you're set. 1 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTestAuto.9108 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: oh i'm not confused, you recognise finally what was said about a million posts ago, a champion in an instance which is a solvable deterministic piece of content as its solo. This is a non starter and turgid content, which is kind of the point. is that what you really want? Again. Yes. I mean, they can add variables to the AI, so it isn't like this is necessary, but if that's how the strikes are coded inherently, fine. But, yes, I want them to add solo options to the existing strike missions. As we went over, I know you don't want that. This does not mean I have somehow misunderstood something about the thing I am asking for. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: But, yes, I want them to add solo options to the existing strike missions. At least you're finally admitting it's not about just "having harder soloable content", it's specifically about turning group content into solo one. Edited January 8, 2023 by Sobx.1758 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: Again. Yes. I mean, they can add variables to the AI, so it isn't like this is necessary, but if that's how the strikes are coded inherently, fine. But, yes, I want them to add solo options to the existing strike missions. As we went over, I know you don't want that. This does not mean I have somehow misunderstood something about the thing I am asking for. Again, making a strike soloable is not just adding a solo button, you need to design new content which is simply a champion in a box (?!) with all the strike attack patterns removed, What your asking makes zero sense. Rather than doing a strike, go find a quiet map and solo a champion. its the same thing. Edited January 8, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTestAuto.9108 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: Again, making a strike soloable is not just adding a solo button, you need to design new content which is simply a champion in a box (?!) with all the strike attack patterns removed, What your asking makes zero sense. Rather than doing a strike, go find a quiet map and solo a champion. its the same thing. No, not all strike patterns. Some don't work solo (stacking circles, AH CM sniper), but plenty do (strikes already get soloed). I understand you don't want this, but no one is asking you to play the content if they implement it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: At least you're finally admitting it's not about just "having harder soloable content", it's specifically about turning group content into solo one. Just now, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: No, not all strike patterns. Some don't work solo (stacking circles, AH CM sniper), but plenty do (strikes already get soloed). I understand you don't want this, but no one is asking you to play the content if they implement it. this has nothing to do with what i want, its to do with the design principles of what you are asking for, it makes no sense. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: No, not all strike patterns. Some don't work solo (stacking circles, AH CM sniper), but plenty do (strikes already get soloed). I understand you don't want this, but no one is asking you to play the content if they implement it. Saying you just want to solo champions, while you clearly refuse to use the currently available options for exactly that shows it's just a dishonest attempt to justify turning group content into solo one. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 il try and simplify this to make it really obvious Changing a strike boss to be soloable is just creating a champion (i.e a soloable boss). its the group mechanics that makes it a strike boss. So what he is asking for is a champion that can be accessed via a single person instance instead of via open world. God knows why. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTestAuto.9108 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 11 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: this has nothing to do with what i want, its to do with the design principles of what you are asking for, it makes no sense. Yes, they do. It seems our discussion has run its course. Thank you for the time. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: Yes, they do. It seems our discussion has run its course. Thank you for the time. no you are applying a strawman, i'm trying to make it clear to you that what you are asking for is do do champions in a single instance instead of open world, thats it. You have muddied the waters perhaps by creating a relationship with strike bosses - turning a strike boss into a champion means there is no relationship between the 2. i,e: - Strike boss: champion with enhanced mechanics for groups. - Open world champion: boss with mechanics suitable for solo play. - Strike boss with group mechanics stripped out = Open world champion but in a single player instance. So, why create that new boss in a single instance? create it in open world as a new champion and let people solo it if they want. This is however exactly what Anet does! Edited January 8, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said: Again. Yes. I mean, they can add variables to the AI, so it isn't like this is necessary, but if that's how the strikes are coded inherently, fine. But, yes, I want them to add solo options to the existing strike missions. As we went over, I know you don't want that. This does not mean I have somehow misunderstood something about the thing I am asking for. Funny you ask for "solo options for existing strikes" ... that's what the story is. You realize that the new strikes are based on the story encounters right? Edited January 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said: Funny you ask for "solo options for existing strikes" ... that's what the story is. You realize that the new strikes are based on the story encounters right? Yes but they are not rewarding or hard enough have been the answer they gave before. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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