why is there no solo end-game content?

[Cyninja.2954]

4 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

o_O

That is technically true, once you pass X performance, you will get into groups which require X or below.

X is usually very lenient in raid beginner to intermediate groups and only becomes tough towards high end and absolute top tier. The former 2 make up the bulk of the raiding/strike population. It's one of the reasons why the common mantra of "90% benchmark is needed for raiding" is utter nonsense.

In general, just looking at a golem already passes what would be acceptable for some beginner level raid groups. Obviously one would hope most players don't stop there, some do though...

Edited January 10, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Bladestrom.6425]

ive edited ^^

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

54 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Or they find a group in LFG and join or maybe they have a guild and find easy and fast enough players to do a strike mission. 
Strike missions don’t take long and are not difficult to organize. They are perfect for players with limited time. 

Sometimes true.  Depends on the time of day, the server, how long you have, what you want to do...

 

They're a massive improvement on raids, but they are far from a magic bullet.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Variety.

...so why aren't you soloing bounties?

4 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Sometimes true.  Depends on the time of day, the server, how long you have, what you want to do...

 

They're a massive improvement on raids, but they are far from a magic bullet.

Didn't you say at some point you "only" have time to play for 1-2h in the evening (the infamous "scheduling issues")? Seems like an active enough time to get into groups consistently.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

6 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

ok i spent 10k hours hardcore raiding in WOW on silvermoon at almost the cost of my marriage 🙂  I know what's involved, i even contributed to a code module once for RAWR.  To be good in a raid/tuned boss you need 2 things:

 

1: mastery of you rotation, and maximisation of spell up time and click speed.  You learn this on dummies and theory craft optimal builds.  Good players spend hours every week simply practicing rotations.   

 

2. you learn the attack patterns via boss fight repetition to burn in the muscle memory via rote play.  Raid leader will use a video as a starting point, everyone must look at this to start.  Alongside this you tune you rotations for the given fight to minimise movement and spell downtime.

 

in GW2 1 is the test dummy.  2 is normal/hard mode.  1 is also less relevant in GW2 (or should be ) because hybrid builds are plenty good enough for everything bar high tuned fights)

 

As for DPS meters, its a poison chalice, it drives the wrong behaviours, I know from experience, and wow now is an absolute cess pit of nasty behaviours as a result of them and the gear chase.  That however is a very different conversation that should not bleed into this thread, it Enough to say they are not needed for normal mode strikes.  if you do roughly X dps on a test dummy you are good for everything bar high tuned fights from a rotation perspective. what remains is rote memorisation of movements for the strike, which is exactly what ive done and I can happily do any strike and have maybe seen a handful of failures in all my time in Gw2.

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky here, so take this literally.  What is your point here?  I'm not seeing it as either contradicting, or supporting my point.

[The Boz.2038]

11 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That is technically true, once you pass X performance, you will get into groups which require X or below.

X is usually very lenient in raid beginner to intermediate groups and only becomes tough towards high end and absolute top tier. The former 2 make up the bulk of the raiding/strike population. It's one of the reasons why the common mantra of "90% benchmark is needed for raiding" is utter nonsense.

In general, just looking at a golem already passes what would be acceptable for some beginner level raid groups. Obviously one would hope most players don't stop there, some do though...

Yeah, sure, but you need to specify the X.

And you need some sort of meter, plugin or golem time, to check that.

Don't care about the 90% or whatever, but the DPS meter will allow you to see your DPS (shocking, I know), and how the number changes as you fiddle with your rotation and gear and whatnot.

[Cyninja.2954]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Yeah, sure, but you need to specify the X.

And you need some sort of meter, plugin or golem time, to check that.

Don't care about the 90% or whatever, but the DPS meter will allow you to see your DPS (shocking, I know), and how the number changes as you fiddle with your rotation and gear and whatnot.

 

Oh absolutely, I do believe doing "X damage on a test dummy" was mentioned by vesica tempestas.1563 in this regard but yes, that X should never be assumed. Any player who makes assumptions around their performance without double checking is usually incorrect.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

6 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

The repeated argument I've seen in this thread is that solo content is really boring.  So the idea that you're "bypassing" the fun content to play the boring content wouldn't make sense.

 

I of course don't agree that solo content is boring.  So I'd take the position of, if you feel like you're only doing the group content because there isn't a solo option, then that doesn't sound much fun.

 

You've added "faster and very rewarding".  I don't believe I've ever said either of those things.  I'm happy for the fights to take slightly more time, for slightly less reward.  Yes they'd be faster because you don't have to LFG, wait for people, or find slots with friends/guildies (which is great), but not in terms of the actual gameplay time.

If you are proposing that a solo player get 10% of the value of the awards from a Strike, and no unique Strike currencies then I would feel that is appropriate rewards. That would still net you the same or better than the awards for a Legendary Bounty ( you get the same if you solo or group kill a bounty of course). 

You choose the language ‘slightly less’ which indicates perhaps 75-80% value of a Strike, which would be incredibly high compensation for a solo encounter based upon how other OW and instanced content gives rewards.

 

[GamerOnline.3650]

Not sure if it was ever mentioned (TLDR), but Fishing (End Of Dragons) can be done solo or as a group. Skiffs give an accumulating bonus to fishing power with a certain mastery provided by the skiff's owner. Groups can build this up faster but solo is just fine. At least I presume this is how it works. I've never fished in a group.

 

No big fancy rewards, just bragging rights and titles earned from fishing achievements. You'll probably end up with a lot of fish for making food as well. 😄

[Bladestrom.6425]

4 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky here, so take this literally.  What is your point here?  I'm not seeing it as either contradicting, or supporting my point.

my point is that you are mistaken, you can in fact learn any fight with normal mode + a test dummy for dps rotations.  You may choose not to, but the solutions are there and they are pretty standard for mmorpg's.

Edited January 10, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Bladestrom.6425]

it should really be /thread by now.

 

1) its pretty obvious Anet are not going to introduce a FOURTH difficulty level of strike for solo pay (even ignoring the fact it would require very specialised tuning)

 

2) Its been made clear there are a number of options that satisfy the posters need, all of which have been known about for years and are standard and are in use in GW2.  Furthermore there is zero demand in game or in forums for another strike difficulty level which demonstrates user needs are satisfied.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

If you are proposing that a solo player get 10% of the value of the awards from a Strike, and no unique Strike currencies then I would feel that is appropriate rewards. That would still net you the same or better than the awards for a Legendary Bounty ( you get the same if you solo or group kill a bounty of course). 

You choose the language ‘slightly less’ which indicates perhaps 75-80% value of a Strike, which would be incredibly high compensation for a solo encounter based upon how other OW and instanced content gives rewards.

 

I'm not sure on the gold per hour exactly, but I don't think 75% would be particularly high relative to other content, especially on a daily restriction.  I'd also add shards, but slightly lower.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

my point is that you are mistaken, you can in fact learn any fight with normal mode + a test dummy for dps rotations.  You may choose not to, but the solutions are there and they are pretty standard for mmorpg's.

This is false (CM has different mechanics than NM), and also missing the point I made about why the test dummy isn't an effective part of the game's learning curve.

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I'm not sure on the gold per hour exactly, but I don't think 75% would be particularly high relative to other content, especially on a daily restriction.  I'd also add shards, but slightly lower.

So did you check the daily gph of replaying the eod stories or are you just blindly dismissing it "just in case"? Seeing how interested you're in solo content and their respective "worth" in terms of rewards (while mentioning above story versions are fine too now?*), you probably have that information, right?

 

*quick reminder from the previous page:

9 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Heck you could even add a really low reward "Story Mode" version that is literally just a portal to the Story Boss with the cutscenes and other bits removed.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

20 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

This is false (CM has different mechanics than NM),

Yes, that's why it's a gradual progression. Learn basics, proceed higher, learn that, move forward again.

20 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

and also missing the point I made about why the test dummy isn't an effective part of the game's learning curve.

But it very obviously is. In actual fight you won't be doing the same damage, but the test dummy still plays a solid role in improving and judging your capabilities -the more familiar you're with how to deal dmg on a dummy (with or without a specific "rotation"), the less you'll be bothered with mechanics of the actual encounters getting in your way. So that "point" is false.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Bladestrom.6425]

29 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

This is false (CM has different mechanics than NM), and also missing the point I made about why the test dummy isn't an effective part of the game's learning curve.

12 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, that's why it's a gradual progression. Learn basics, proceed higher, learn that, move forward again.

But it very obviously is. In actual fight you won't be doing the same damage, but the test dummy still plays a solid role in improving and judging your capabilities -the more familiar you're with how to deal dmg on a dummy (with or without a specific "rotation"), the less you'll be bothered with mechanics of the actual encounters getting in your way. So that "point" is false.

 

yup everyone else on the planet who has played mmorpg for a reasonable length of time knows this, in fact its been the standard for nearly a quarter of a century lol. 

Im pretty sure adding a forth variation of a boss isn't something anyone wants or needs in Gw2. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

4 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

yup everyone else on the planet who has played mmorpg for a reasonable length of time knows this, in fact its been the standard for nearly a quarter of a century lol. 

Im pretty sure adding a forth variation of a boss isn't something anyone wants or needs in Gw2. 

Okay.  And for all the players who bought their first MMORPG when the game released on steam four months ago?

 

There are other types of player than veteran MMO player.  And they're the players who would most benefit from an in game learning curve. 

[Bladestrom.6425]

15 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Okay.  And for all the players who bought their first MMORPG when the game released on steam four months ago?

 

There are other types of player than veteran MMO player.  And they're the players who would most benefit from an in game learning curve. 

 

Or we recognise that the patterns in place are a result of the genre evolving over 25 years and there is a reason why no-one really complains that we need a fourth boss variation (including new players). Veterans are simply people who have played the game to a point where they understand the options available.  Alternatively said player could ask themselves why  no-one else seems to worry about this, and should perhaps stand back and see what other people are doing (if they are not willing to listen to advice)

Edited January 10, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Okay.  And for all the players who bought their first MMORPG when the game released on steam four months ago?

For all those players it still is exactly the same, not sure what you're trying to say here.

Not only that, but notice how you're now making up purely hypothetical players in order to claim they somehow need your "hard solo content" for anything 🤔 Meanwhile, you can still go solo bounties if soloing champions is what you want (and apparently it is, from what you've been writing here).

Edited January 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Bladestrom.6425]

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

For all those playes it still is exactly the same, not sure what you're trying to say here.

*goalpost scrapes on floor*

we have moved on swiftly to the next pivot point - player who has only joined in last 4 months, ignored advice, ignores or is unaware of core gameplay design elements present in the genre for decades and isn't happy with 3 current variations of strike boss and pretty much every other form of content that's not a solo strike boss in a room in an instance. that new player wants 'hard solo content'  not too hard, not too easy, juuuust right (for a player who has barely learned their skills) 🙂

Who is more likely to be right, the new player with limited knowledge or the player base, developers, designers, testers, entire genre over 2 decades.  Feels like the latter to me.

Edited January 10, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Bladestrom.6425]

can you imagine the lead developer designer and product owner sitting together and looking at the requirements and going what..the fuuu.. 😛

[Mungo Zen.9364]

1 hour ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I'm not sure on the gold per hour exactly, but I don't think 75% would be particularly high relative to other content, especially on a daily restriction.  I'd also add shards, but slightly lower.

Much laughter at this response. You sound like you either do not know the value of running a Strike or you don’t care.

 

 

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

55 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

Who is more likely to be right, the new player with limited knowledge or the player base, developers, designers, testers, entire genre over 2 decades.  Feels like the latter to me.

Okay, you seem to think that the few people arguing in this thread somehow constitute that list?  Or that the hypothetical new player I referenced is for some reason the person making the argument?

 

I'm not really interested in arguing against a literal "I know best".  So thank you for your time.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

16 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Much laughter at this response. You sound like you either do not know the value of running a Strike or you don’t care.

 

 

Or, as I said, I wasn't sure exactly.  I knew roughly that they work out as strong, but limited to daily.  Checking [fast], that's broadly true, depending on the strike and what's daily.

 

Now that's established, 75% of "strong", and limited to daily sounds pretty reasonable.  So...?

[Bladestrom.6425]

6 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Okay, you seem to think that the few people arguing in this thread somehow constitute that list?  Or that the hypothetical new player I referenced is for some reason the person making the argument?

 

I'm not really interested in arguing against a literal "I know best".  So thank you for your time.

no i didn't say that at all, in fact i wasn't even talking about people in this thread, nice strawman to avoid the points made i guess.