Analyzing Hammer Auto Chains

[oscuro.9720]

Hey Everyone! CMC recently talked about adding back in some damage to warrior’s hammer and mace. Part of the stated issue they ran into was that reducing cooldowns further would be problematic, and hammer is clearly underperforming. Obviously this can change some with the upcoming changes, but I view one of the ways for hammer to get that added umph is through the auto attack. So, let’s take a look at some Warrior auto attacks!
 

Warrior Hammer Auto Chain:

2.0 coeff / 2.75s = .7273

Utility: None

 

Guardian Hammer Auto Chain:

1.732 coeff / 3.45s = .502

Utility; Symbol of Protection (1.2 coefficient, 3s protection, light field)

 

Scrapper Hammer Auto Chain:

2.132 coeff / 2.75s = .775

Utility; 4 might, 4 vuln

 

Ranger Hammer Auto Chain: 

1.999 coeff / 2.75s = .7269 (no cast time is provided, but since the cast of each strike is the same, we will assume the same cast as warrior and scrapper hammer) 

Utility: None

 

Going off of those numbers, it seems warrior hammer is actually balanced with the others fairly well. Scrapper hammer auto seems to be the outlier, providing more utility and damage than any of the other hammer autos. So either the other hammers should be buffed up to be comparable to scrapper, or scrapper hammer should be brought down.
 

I would argue that hammers should be brought up to Scrapper Hammer level, given hammers, as a whole, aren’t exactly the best weapon group at the moment. 
 

For warrior and ranger hammer (which are nearly identical in terms of numbers), you would look at one of three routes; just more damage, added utility, or a combination of the two. 
 

To give rough numbers, a pure damage based balance would ideally look something like; 

Hammer Auto 1: .6 coeff

Hammer Auto 2: .7 coeff (+.1)

Hammer Auto 3: 1 coeff (+.2) 

Total Coefficient: 2.3

Cast Time: 2.75s

Coeff/Cast: .836

 

This would give it .6 more coeff/cast than scrapper hammer, which is similar to the gap the Scrapper hammer has over warrior and ranger hammer presently. 

 

Another route to increasing damage would be to reduce the cast time of the chain with the same coefficients. It would look something like; 

Total Coefficient: 2.0

Cast time: 2.25s (reduce the first two strikes by 1/4s each to reduce the total cast from 2.75 to 2.25. Those two strikes would have 1/4s cast time). 

Coeff/Cast: .888

 

I would personally lower the cast time for Warrior hammer and increase the coefficients on ranger hammer. This would give more separation between the two, since right now their autos are basically identical. For Warrior, the faster casts make sense as the master of weapons; the warrior should be able to wield the hammer more deftly. This leaves the raw damage increase to ranger, to help differentiate the two. 
 

That’s just my thoughts, what about you all? How would you like hammer to be handled? 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Damnit Osc, why do you hate dark theme users?!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1) You forgot Catalyst.

 

2) Hammer in general have been underpowered compared to things like greatsword.

 

3) I agree with a faster cast on warrior hammer chain, but untamed would benefit more from adding a pet based benefit on it somewhere.

 

4) It was brought up elsewhere that the last hit could be a blast finisher, and I think that would be a good idea. If anyone disagrees then go look at the light field guardian gets to generate on their hammer's last AA hit. Seems only fair that another hammer get a blast on their AA chain.

 

PS: I turned the lights on to read your post. Blindingly bright AF white themes hurt the eyes.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its worth noting that Guardian hammer has a major difference to Warrior hammer now in that the #2 burst skill doesn't interrupt the autoattack chain anymore with Quickness. I haven't tested it recently, but I'm pretty sure the Warrior #2 skill still interrupts the autoattack chain, hurting its DPS.

 

(Guardian hammer actually feels really nice now..)

 

And yes, a blast effect to their autoattack chain could be very powerful. This has already been done on Ele's Lightning Hammer, and it was common to use it to stack Might, etc. in instanced content. Allowing Warrior to do the same thing could be beneficial. Give them a consistent source of water fields and you could even make it a viable support weapon, which they currently lack entirely outside of warhorn.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Kraav.8136]

Lan,

As suggested in the other thread: Hammer Smash (final attack in the chain) inflicts Blindness (2 seconds) and/or is a Blast Finisher.

For PVE the damage is decent, the damage split for competitive hurt us back in 2020 and after the CC nerf to Backbreaker and Staggering Blow the auto attack chain should have its damage coefficients restored to PVE levels.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 minutes ago, Kraav.8136 said:

Lan,

As suggested in the other thread: Hammer Smash (final attack in the chain) inflicts Blindness (2 seconds) and/or is a Blast Finisher.

For PVE the damage is decent, the damage split for competitive hurt us back in 2020 and after the CC nerf to Backbreaker and Staggering Blow the auto attack chain should have its damage coefficients restored to PVE levels.

Blind on AA would be too powerful. I rail against blind spam, so I'm not about to champion more blind spam 2.0 for warrior. A blast finisher would be nice and open up niche uses in coordinated gameplay (blasting water fields for example...)

[oscuro.9720]

58 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

1) You forgot Catalyst.

 

2) Hammer in general have been underpowered compared to things like greatsword.

 

3) I agree with a faster cast on warrior hammer chain, but untamed would benefit more from adding a pet based benefit on it somewhere.

 

4) It was brought up elsewhere that the last hit could be a blast finisher, and I think that would be a good idea. If anyone disagrees then go look at the light field guardian gets to generate on their hammer's last AA hit. Seems only fair that another hammer get a blast on their AA chain.

 

PS: I turned the lights on to read your post. Blindingly bright AF white themes hurt the eyes.

1) I didn’t do catalyst or revenant because they are not melee per say, and 4 elements is too much. Also how rude of you to leave out rev. 
 

2) yes, unfortunately. Hammers are cool!

 

3) I did the untamed more in passing because of how surprisingly similar the numbers were (basically identical). I was also surprised there was no unleashed-state benefit for auto attack, which could be another unique way to work in some benefits. 
 

4) I’m pretty indifferent to blast on AA because it can’t be pulled on with any sort of consistency. Fields make more sense, because you can capitalize on them after the fact. Not that I would be opposed, I just don’t seem to see the same value others do. I’m also partial to not putting utility on Warrior hammer and just maxing out the smash factor, which probably isn’t too popular xD

 

5) Welcome to the light! I don’t know why me making posts hates dark theme, though it’s kind of ironic since my name literally means dark in Spanish…

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

1) I didn’t do catalyst or revenant because they are not melee per say, and 4 elements is too much. Also how rude of you to leave out rev. 
 

Well Rev hammer is pretty forgettable so...

2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

2) yes, unfortunately. Hammers are cool!

I know right?! Besides The Juggernaut is the second best legendary weapon skin.

2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

3) I did the untamed more in passing because of how surprisingly similar the numbers were (basically identical). I was also surprised there was no unleashed-state benefit for auto attack, which could be another unique way to work in some benefits. 
 

4) I’m pretty indifferent to blast on AA because it can’t be pulled on with any sort of consistency. Fields make more sense, because you can capitalize on them after the fact. Not that I would be opposed, I just don’t seem to see the same value others do. I’m also partial to not putting utility on Warrior hammer and just maxing out the smash factor, which probably isn’t too popular xD

The benefit comes from coordinated play. Like WvW over coms, or instanced PvE, or ATs. If you know that a team mate is dropping a water field you know to spam AA if you need the blast heals. It opens up Hammer as a second weapon to take in a support set other than X/Horn.

2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

5) Welcome to the light! I don’t know why me making posts hates dark theme, though it’s kind of ironic since my name literally means dark in Spanish…

Oh I went back to the darkness as soon as I finished reading your post. I blame my formal education being in Astronomy/Astrophysics. Spent many a nights in the dark with only red lights to read by.

[oscuro.9720]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Well Rev hammer is pretty forgettable so...

Unfortunately, I don’t think you are wrong. 
 

 

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I know right?! Besides The Juggernaut is the second best legendary weapon skin.

What’s first? That won’t be a controversial topic at all I feel. 
 

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The benefit comes from coordinated play. Like WvW over coms, or instanced PvE, or ATs. If you know that a team mate is dropping a water field you know to spam AA if you need the blast heals. It opens up Hammer as a second weapon to take in a support set other than X/Horn.

Yes, that’s very true. I’m still indifferent. I play solo mostly now, so I don’t think much of those things anymore.

 

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Oh I went back to the darkness as soon as I finished reading your post. I blame my formal education being in Astronomy/Astrophysics. Spent many a nights in the dark with only red lights to read by.

So you are an asura irl, that’s pretty cool. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Unfortunately, I don’t think you are wrong. 
 

Having taken several Revs through HoT and EoD, yes, it indeed needs buffs. Every non Espec version of hammer needs buffs to be honest.

4 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

 

What’s first? That won’t be a controversial topic at all I feel. 
 

TWILIGHT. Did you not see the astronomy/astrophysics tidbit about me? Not at all anything to do about Edge Lords. Nope. Not one iota. Totally about them nebulas and space background. 

4 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Yes, that’s very true. I’m still indifferent. I play solo mostly now, so I don’t think much of those things anymore.

Yeah, I know, but even then you can pop a fire field and blast it for might and heals, if traited of course, as a warrior. Or blast your own banner fields with it. This would necessitate a faster AA chain though to make proper use of however.

4 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

So you are an asura irl, that’s pretty cool. 

Started in physics/astrophysics double major, got my masters, was jaded by the politicking in academia, specifically seeing amazing professors not make tenure who where some of the best instructors ever, and went into systems engineering as a profession. No, that is not IT, its a specific field of engineering like Mechanical or Electrical Engineering. No, I was not joking when I said in prior threads that Anet could not afford my salary... No, I will not answer questions about astrological signs, as there is a missing zodiac from that list of signs, so of course it isn't accurate. 

As to being an Asura, my well groomed beard, love of ale, and strength training hobby would make me more of a Priory Norn despite my Vigil tendencies in gameplay.
 

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

As to being an Asura, my well groomed beard, love of ale, and strength training hobby would make me more of a Priory Norn despite my Vigil tendencies in gameplay warrior.

 

Ah, so you are a warrior irl. All is right in the universe. Warrior needs to know the stars well, otherwise how are we going to go fight them, right? Also, obligatory b/s/d?

[draxynnic.3719]

Yeah, the politicking in academia is pretty shocking.

Asura are possibly the least astronomy-oriented due to having been underground for centuries. The biggest observatories in Tyria I can think of were either human-made (the Astralarum in Istan) or made by the Ancient Jotun. Based on the Astralaria collection, the modern Tyrian constellations seem to be human, norn, or charr.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Ah, so you are a warrior irl. All is right in the universe. Warrior needs to know the stars well, otherwise how are we going to go fight them, right? 

Got to know where you are at night so you know where to sneak up on the enemy for a night ambush.

[erapago.4387]

I know damage an numbers are important.

 

 

But what I really want is for hammers to not sound like I'm finger flicking a wine glass.

[Mungrul.9358]

9 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Ah, so you are a warrior irl. All is right in the universe. Warrior needs to know the stars well, otherwise how are we going to go fight them, right? Also, obligatory b/s/d?

 

I like stars, and I like hammers, and hammers let me show my enemies the stars that I love!

 

On topic, improved attack chain speed and a blast finisher seem like no-brainers to me.

 

I'm still disappointed with the removal of cooldown reduction for hammer, while only Hammer Shock gets any compensation.

25 second cooldown for Backbreaker is soul-destroying 😞

It's already one of the hardest skills to land because of the lengthy, telegraphed wind-up.