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Spite specialization


Artificer.3468

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2 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

hmm... As bad as it looks, it's one of the best trait lines we have =:/

could always use a rework sure but first they need to fix Blood and then the whole minion's line in Death.

Depends on the game mode. Spite is weaker than Soul reaping and Curses without question. If you ask me its very Middle of the pack. And I'm not sure its THAT much better than blood or death.

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Oh, absolutely. In my opinion, the entire Spite traitline needs a rework because the original idea doesn't really work anymore (more damage when enemy under 50% health). The Spite traitline has the unique feature that it's the only traitline on Necro that has the potential to do literally nothing. If the enemy has boons on them, and if they have above 50% health and you're not in shroud, Spite does literally nothing. The reason it still ends up rather okay-ish is because it has absolutely mental might-generation when you are in shroud. I would much rather have Anet rework the entire traitline, and focus on might generation and vulnerability application. This theme is already present in Spite, although very weakly (Bitter Chill, Death's embrace). Maybe an unpopular thing to say, but I genuinely think Unyielding blast belongs in Spite as a minor trait, right next to reaper's might. Besides that, Reaper's might and Siphoned power do exactly the same thing.

Edited by Darth Pooh.5638
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18 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

they both give literally the same DPS.

I wont deny that the damage increase between the two is somewhat similar, I will say that what Soul reaping offers far out does what spite offers. While Spite offers 10% damage along with 250 extra power if you're going for full DPS and an extra 20% when the target is below 50% health this is pretty minor when the minor traits are all fairly situational.

Lets compare it to soul reaping. Soul reaping actually offers quite a bit. For starters the adept traits are all fairly useful. Starting us off we have unyielding blast which offers more consistent vulnerability than spite. Although spite does have bitter chill, that trait competes with spiteful talisman which is objectively the best damage trait the adept has. But soul reaping can afford to drop unyielding blast if other utility is needed. Soul marks makes your marks unblockable and give life force, which with the buffs to staff in PvE and its universal use in PvP and WvW it makes this trait extremely valuable for the necromancer. Then we have what many might consider the weakest, speed of shadow which is still an extremely good trait since it removes chill, immobilize and crippling. Just looking at the adept traits spite has one good one while Soul reaping has 3.

Now lets look at the Master traits. I think Spite does better here. Chill of Death is pretty strong and awaken the pain is solid. Unfortunately signet of suffering isn't all that great but that's because of its flawed design in recharging faster while in shroud makes for some clunky gameplay and signets as a group aren't all that great. Soul reaping has soul barbs, a trait which is far stronger than awaken the pain and is useful on more than just power builds. the 10% for all outgoing damage just far surpasses a static 250 power boost which comes at the cost of condition damage. Although I will say Soul reapings other master traits could be better, that's true.

Next we look at the Grandmaster. What does spite offer? Dread is cute but its duration is much too low for how few fear sources the necromancer actually has and its 3 second internal cooldown makes it pretty bad overall. I like dread, but its a cute trait, not strong. Close to death is situational. If you want to actually consider what its effective DPS contribution is, its closer to 10% than 20%. Because its only effective half the time. Then we have spiteful spirit. Spiteful spirit is a defensive option that strips boons which is fine, but its not really grandmaster material. Compare this to Soul reaping. Eternal life is exceptionally strong, so much so its nerfed in PvP and WvW. Death Perception which gives you a flat 10% increase chance to crit along with a 15% critical damage while in shroud, which works 100% of the time. Then we have Dhuumfire which increases condition build's output. Overall Soul reaping wins out here by a long shot.

What about the minors? All of spite's minors are situational except for reaper's might. All of them are superfluous in a group and even superfluous due to the traits within spite. What about Soul reaping? Gluttony gives us 10% more life force. This is decent. Sinister shroud is so strong that the 15% cool down reduction should probably be made baseline because loosing that by dropping soul reaping is an extremely devastating loss in efficiency. And soul Battery gives us 20% more life force which gives Scourge more energy and Reaper more health. You FEEL it when you're not running Soul reaping because of those traits. But if Spite suddenly lost all of its minors for whatever reason you wouldn't notice it.

I could rain on Spite's parade even harder by comparing it to explosives from engineer. But we'll keep its comparison within necromancer for now.

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On 9/30/2022 at 1:01 AM, Lily.1935 said:

Unfortunately signet of suffering isn't all that great but that's because of its flawed design in recharging faster while in shroud makes for some clunky gameplay and signets as a group aren't all that great.

I'd say Reaper's Might and Signet's of Suffering are actually my favourite Traits in all of Spite, since they are absolutely build defining for any especially low intensity near perma Shroud solo build. The problem is just everything else in there, especially the other two minors, don't really provide much value.

 

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I could rain on Spite's parade even harder by comparing it to explosives from engineer.

I still think that when Revenant was added to the game they took much of the accumulated ideas they had to update and buff Necro back then and made that the new Profession instead, at least to some extend. 

If you compare Devastation to Spite especially, they are suspiciously similar Traitlines (Swift Termination = Close to Death; Brutality = Dread-ish; Notoriety = Awaken the Pain..). It even had the Increased Damage while downed Trait from Spite too (Jade Echo = Death's Embrace), except that on Rev, along with most of the other "meh" things, it got reworked years ago.

 

When I first saw Corruption likewise it was basically just Curses 2.0 as well, with Rampant Vex being the new Barbed Precision, both Venom Enhancement and it's replacement Acolyte of Torment, and especially Pact of Pain, screaming like Curse upgrades, Abyssal Chill begging to be on Condi Reaper, and the theme of the Bottom line of self inflicting and then transferring Conditions etc. all playing into Necro's Master of Condition manipulation theme prominent at the time.

 

And for what it's worth I feel much of that extends to the whole Professions design, with Devastation/Spite being the power line, Corruption/Curses the Condi line, Invocation/Soul Reaping the profession mechanic focused line, Salvation/Blood Magic the healing/support line and Retribution/Death Magic the Defensive line, it's weird how closely those professions line up in how they are set up on a macro level, as well as what that includes on a micro level with individual Traits (where applicable with different Profession mechanics) - just that Rev has gotten many more reworks since it's already updated design was introduced (which tbf, in many ways also distinguished it more to become it's own thing, rather than Necro 2.0), while Necro in many ways is still in 2012 design.

Edited by Asum.4960
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9 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

...

For whatever reason, it seems like the devs dislike working on necro. Like it's the stinky profession. This is really weird. Especially when it's one of the player's favorites. (And let's not talk about minions. Another players favorite who's been neglected. While, in the past, we could have accepted arguments concerning bots and passive gameplay, mechanist has proven that that wasn't an issue at all for the devs)

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11 minutes ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

For whatever reason, it seems like the devs dislike working on necro. Like it's the stinky profession. This is really weird. Especially when it's one of the player's favorites. (And let's not talk about minions. Another players favorite who's been neglected. While, in the past, we could have accepted arguments concerning bots and passive gameplay, mechanist has proven that that wasn't an issue at all for the devs)

Well, Shroud was also the excuse argument for low Damage and low to no Utility and Mobility - until Specter.

Edited by Asum.4960
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12 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Well, Shroud was also the excuse argument for low Damage and low to no Utility and Mobility - until Specter.

yeah, that was the biggest slap in the face the necro community received lately. really cleared away the bs, though.

 

Edited by Seuchenherbst.2746
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15 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Well, Shroud was also the excuse argument for low Damage and low to no Utility and Mobility - until Specter.

16 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

When I first saw Corruption likewise it was basically just Curses 2.0 as well, with Rampant Vex being the new Barbed Precision, both Venom Enhancement and it's replacement Acolyte of Torment screaming like Curse upgrades, Abyssal Chill begging to be on Condi Reaper, and the theme of the Bottom line of self inflicting and then transferring Conditions etc. all playing into Necro's Master of Condition manipulation theme prominent at the time.

Asum.4960, thanks for putting my frustrations with revenant and specter into actually intelligible words. I've felt like this for a long time, and it somehow feels unfair that necro gets left behind as the toy they don't want to play with anymore. Giving another profession something similar is absolutely okay, like what they're trying to do with giving other classes more access to stability. However, copying something that is meant to be one of the core pillars of a profession (self-inflicting conditions) and then making it better just feels like a slap in the face. I like revenant and I think it's a cool profession, but I couldn't help but think "this should be on necro" at least a few times when I looked through their skills and traits for the first time.

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9 hours ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

I like revenant and I think it's a cool profession, but I couldn't help but think "this should be on necro" at least a few times when I looked through their skills and traits for the first time.

Likewise. As much as I enjoyed Rev too, "this should be on Necro" is pretty much the quintessential way for me to describe much of the profession. 

Esp. when it's already superior kits that I would have loved to see on Necro kept getting further reworked still with new ideas over and over, pretty much all of which I was suggesting for Necro since years, while Necro got nothing but band-aid fixes for the longest time, was slightly frustrating to watch. 

Things like the Battlescars addition to Devastation out of all things, the prime damage line of Rev in which it was bound to be problematic, was something I was lobbying for Blood Magic to have as single selfish line for years, akin to what Blood Magic actually was in GW1 with skills like Life Transfer, Life Siphon, Order of the Vampire, all the Vampiric Touch, Bite, etc. skills, this was a major part of Necromancer, much like minions, that felt almost entirely left in the dust (safe for the rather pathetic Vampiric and Vampiric Presence, which aren't in any shape or form build defining), both thematically and mechanically - which especially sucked since Curses already lost almost all of their identity in favour of a general/generic Condition system as well. 

I can't tell you how badly I wanted the Mallyx kit on Necro, or to see the Kalla kit realised as likely more broadly appealing Ritualist themed Elitespec for Necro. 

And let's not even compare weapon skills.

I should say, I was genuinely surprised when what became Vindicator didn't become the Minion Spec Necro's had been dreaming of since 2012.

 

3 hours ago, Artificer.3468 said:

For What It's Worth I still think the necromancer is the king of transferring and self inflicting conditions comfortably

 

Back On Topic I hope they do something more interesting than just giving us devastation traits if they decide to change some things

Anyway, that venting aside, I do agree with you here - especially in the sense that I'd actually prefer the game to move away from bland and passive do X% more damage or gain X amount of stats Traits, in favour of actual player choices which affect gameplay. 

And Devastation at this point basically just is: do 20% increased damage against targets above 80%, do 20% increased damage to targets under 50%, gain 250 extra Might, do 7.5% extra damage and do 12.5% extra damage (where as Spite is basically the same, just half of that).

While that certainly would boost power Necro specs to actually do some damage, it's about as bland design as one can imagine. 

 

I do hope Anet actually comes around to look at those things, and that the Skills and Balance team of now has a different approach to things than sending players on a "collect them all" for bland modifiers  - because with some of these Traitlines we really aren't far off from just removing the Trait system altogether in favour of just a passive xxx% increased damage buff.

Edited by Asum.4960
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On 9/30/2022 at 3:14 PM, Asum.4960 said:

I'd say Reaper's Might and Signet's of Suffering are actually my favourite Traits in all of Spite, since they are absolutely build defining for any especially low intensity near perma Shroud solo build. The problem is just everything else in there, especially the other two minors, don't really provide much value.

 

I still think that when Revenant was added to the game they took much of the accumulated ideas they had to update and buff Necro back then and made that the new Profession instead, at least to some extend. 

If you compare Devastation to Spite especially, they are suspiciously similar Traitlines (Swift Termination = Close to Death; Brutality = Dread-ish; Notoriety = Awaken the Pain..). It even had the Increased Damage while downed Trait from Spite too (Jade Echo = Death's Embrace), except that on Rev, along with most of the other "meh" things, it got reworked years ago.

 

When I first saw Corruption likewise it was basically just Curses 2.0 as well, with Rampant Vex being the new Barbed Precision, both Venom Enhancement and it's replacement Acolyte of Torment, and especially Pact of Pain, screaming like Curse upgrades, Abyssal Chill begging to be on Condi Reaper, and the theme of the Bottom line of self inflicting and then transferring Conditions etc. all playing into Necro's Master of Condition manipulation theme prominent at the time.

 

And for what it's worth I feel much of that extends to the whole Professions design, with Devastation/Spite being the power line, Corruption/Curses the Condi line, Invocation/Soul Reaping the profession mechanic focused line, Salvation/Blood Magic the healing/support line and Retribution/Death Magic the Defensive line, it's weird how closely those professions line up in how they are set up on a macro level, as well as what that includes on a micro level with individual Traits (where applicable with different Profession mechanics) - just that Rev has gotten many more reworks since it's already updated design was introduced (which tbf, in many ways also distinguished it more to become it's own thing, rather than Necro 2.0), while Necro in many ways is still in 2012 design.

The thing is, I actually would say that Soul reaping and curses are the best two specializations the necromancer has, even when compared to their elite specs.. Which i have reasons for feeling that way. But also I feel the comparison between corruption and curses isn't exactly fair as curses has a bit more in common with Firearms from Engineer in my opinion. Both are very focused on critical hits and condition damage but I'd go as far to say that firearms outpaces curses. Corruption doesn't really have anything in its modern form involving critical hits.

I do think that the Curses specialization needs some improvements in that regard, make it desirable on power builds or support builds outside of its powerful condition damage, or its diversity among play styles should be improved greatly. Where is all of the necromancer's Precision? Its in curses.

Soul reaping is our best specialization for 2 specific traits. Sinister shroud and soul battery.  Sinister shroud especially is so essential for necromancer builds even before considering every other perk Soul reaping gives. Harbinger, Scourge, Reaper all live or die on the power of those two traits and none of the other specializations offer so much universal utility.

If you were to ask me, that 15% from sinister shroud should be universally applied to all necromancer specs and replaced with something else. Curses needs some love. Terror along with the Parasitic contagion and weakening shroud need some work or replacements. Spite needs all of its minor traits reworked along with spiteful renewal, dread and spiteful spirit. Blood has major problems with competing traits that want to be used on the exact same type of builds and the grandmasters probably could use some work excluding transfusion. And Death has been the subject of major debate for a decade now.

I think when I'm not so tired I'll make a post on some ideas on how Spite could be fixed, since necromancer's power builds being very lacking may, at least in part are being held back by Spite's under performance.

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17 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

The thing is, I actually would say that Soul reaping and curses are the best two specializations the necromancer has, even when compared to their elite specs.. Which i have reasons for feeling that way. But also I feel the comparison between corruption and curses isn't exactly fair as curses has a bit more in common with Firearms from Engineer in my opinion. Both are very focused on critical hits and condition damage but I'd go as far to say that firearms outpaces curses. Corruption doesn't really have anything in its modern form involving critical hits.

I do think that the Curses specialization needs some improvements in that regard, make it desirable on power builds or support builds outside of its powerful condition damage, or its diversity among play styles should be improved greatly. Where is all of the necromancer's Precision? Its in curses.

Curses definitely is the Firearms equivalent - especially back at launch when for example Target the Weak was still the same as Modified Ammunition and Traitlines were "hybrid" by nature, considering "Condition Builds" didn't exist back then, with condis being merely a supplement to Power. Modified Ammunition still being intact for Engineer, combined with the lines massive Crit Chance increases, still allows it to be a prime Power DPS line, as well as Condi. 

 

What I meant with that comment though wasn't a comparison, but more that Corruption felt like a modernised/reworked Curses to me when it was first introduced, more in line with the idea of it now being a dedicated condition damage and management/transference line. 

And while I'm always in favour of more options, I don't think Curses necessarily needs to appeal to power builds (and the prospect of that is a scary one for the future of Soul Reaping) - or at least I think improving Spite, and especially making Blood- and Death Magic more universally worthwhile lines is a priority. 

 

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Soul reaping is our best specialization for 2 specific traits. Sinister shroud and soul battery.  Sinister shroud especially is so essential for necromancer builds even before considering every other perk Soul reaping gives. Harbinger, Scourge, Reaper all live or die on the power of those two traits and none of the other specializations offer so much universal utility.

If you were to ask me, that 15% from sinister shroud should be universally applied to all necromancer specs and replaced with something else.

Under threat of heresy, I'm actually going to say that Soul Reaping is pretty overrated. It's omnipresence over all these years isn't down to being potent, but it simply gets by through having absolutely no competition. It's that second pick to Curses for Condi builds, and Spite to Power builds, because what else are you going to pick?

 

Soul Battery for example does literally nothing on Harbinger, since it's LF size is entirely irrelevant, as it's only interaction with LF is in %. 

It's just that 15% CDR in Shroud and a 10% damage mod from Soul Barbs is nice, and despite that being fairly little, no other line competes with that. 

All of Death Magic boils down to is Toughness, Protection via Corruptor's Fervor and Condi cleanse via Shrouded Removal, and all of Blood Magic boils down to Transfusion. 

 

The moment you give Spite and Curses even just a universal modifier, Soul Reaping is dead and forgotten too - and every build is Curses + Spite + Elite instead (similarly to how Firearms and Explosives is run on every condi and power build on Engineer).

 

 

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Curses needs some love. Terror along with the Parasitic contagion and weakening shroud need some work or replacements. Spite needs all of its minor traits reworked along with spiteful renewal, dread and spiteful spirit. Blood has major problems with competing traits that want to be used on the exact same type of builds and the grandmasters probably could use some work excluding transfusion. And Death has been the subject of major debate for a decade now.

Agreed on all of those, especially Blood. It's genuinely impressive how Anet managed to for example make three Traits competing in the same (Master) line for the exact same job, and all three of them being so bad at it that you simply pick the least bad one. 

And then there is ofc Blood Bank, a trait only worth taking when it's redundant to take it - replacing the one Trait that was an actual interesting choice in the line in Vampiric Rituals.

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