How is mechanist nerfed but not...

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Oh absolutely. Condi mech got slept on for a long time because of power mech. I'm a big fan of both variants of condi mech, but I prefer the mace version when going for condi alac. It makes life easier in more ways than one. 

What I'd like to see is some love for Condi holo and core condi. They're lagging behind where they should be right now. 

The dream is that condi scrapper also comes back one day, maybe not as a super high dps option, but as a potential utility choice over core condi, but that is unlikely. 

 

The reason is condi mech isn't busted as a spec. That's why it hasn't seen the high adoption rates. The condi mech builds aren't fully ranged unless you run jade cannons which results in your mech no longer applying bleeding via Single Edge Cutters. Plus any alac builds with High Impact Drivers don't have a ranged mech either.

The best analogy is how condi scourge went from relatively unplayed to being dominant once the torment changes happened in PVE and it went from 28K bench to ~37K.

Also if you are playing the meta condi alac mech, wasn't that 4 kits? I'm not sure why I would bother with that when I can just dust off renegade for that application, especially for CC-intensive scenarios such as Matthias (condi biased) , Sabir (which isn't condi biased really), or even the new AH "Mai Trin" strike. The only exception is probably SH since confusion ticks more there , accidental pulls is an issue with renegade (and firebrand), and barrier is going to be useful.

[Kuma.1503]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The reason is condi mech isn't busted as a spec. That's why it hasn't seen the high adoption rates. The condi mech builds aren't fully ranged unless you run jade cannons which results in your mech no longer applying bleeding via Single Edge Cutters. Plus any alac builds with High Impact Drivers don't have a ranged mech either.

The best analogy is how condi scourge went from relatively unplayed to being dominant once the torment changes happened in PVE and it went from 28K bench to ~37K.

Also if you are playing the meta condi alac mech, wasn't that 4 kits? I'm not sure why I would bother with that when I can just dust off renegade for that application, especially for CC-intensive scenarios such as Matthias (condi biased) , Sabir (which isn't condi biased really), or even the new AH "Mai Trin" strike. The only exception is probably SH since confusion ticks more there , accidental pulls is an issue with renegade (and firebrand), and barrier is going to be useful.

Pretty much agree with everything you said. 

Meta condi alac is 4 kits yeah. I didn't play the meta version, and opted for a tweaked version that pulls slightly lower dps on the golem, but was roughly equal in practice. 

The version i run uses Mace/Pistol and 3 kits, with shift signet. You fill the gaps in your rotation with mace autos, which also makes alac upkeep slightly less strict, and it lets you apply some regen and vigor on top of your usual boons. As for why you'd play it... the same reason why people play things like condi weaver. It's fun and perfectly viable even if higher effort than other options. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Mortiferu.5816]

Power Mech feels like a Master of everything which i bad gamedesign in my book

 

[sigmundf.7523]

On 10/6/2022 at 4:55 PM, Suyheuti.1732 said:

In 100CM, noone allowed to play power build except power mech. Is this balance? 

No. 100% false. Only inexperienced groups that won't allow ANY power build to run 100CM, or a speed run group. The main reason on why condi dps is preferable than power dps is to comfortably and easily push water phase into the next phase. But that doesn't mean ANY power dps isn't allowed. With NPNG (no pain, no gain) , power virtuoso / power mechanist / power alac mechanist are solid choice to take with for 100CM. 

On 10/6/2022 at 4:55 PM, Suyheuti.1732 said:

Fact 2: People werent playing pmech because it was just fun. If mechanist or playing rifle was fun, why didnt people play with condi mechanist or rifle holosmith? 

No, this is not fact. Its your assumption. 

Rifle holosmith simply doesn't work as good as sword holosmith in PVE. Holosmith with sword on main-hand have better synergy with heat gauge and overall better dps.  

 

On 10/6/2022 at 10:32 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Power virtuoso doesn't have a 28k ranged autoattack, it's maybe half of that last I checked. Keep in mind virtuoso needs to be in 600 range for the Mental Focus trait or you lose 15% DPS and bladesongs must be cast for the Deadly Blades trait. (whereas on power engineers you lose High Caliber's 15% crit chance while at over 450 range but already have 90% crit chance against bleeding targets) On top of that virtuoso has very few defensive capabilities to maintain scholar uptime (it doesn't run Jagged Mind) and the addition of distortion does barely anything for the power variant which doesn't generate nearly as many blades. I can only see the benchmark DPS dropping slightly to appease people wanting virtuoso nerfed ; if it is nerfed too hard there will be very little reason to run it over another power spec unless you can make use of the boon rips (which drop your DPS) as the default build doesn't run a focus for pulling (which is a reason you would play it on Conjured Amalgamate for example).

1) Neither rifle mechanist does 28k dps on only autoattack. Its only at 23-24k at golem, point-blank range, auto cast mech, and all condition on golem (which is not realistic). Both power virtuoso and power rifle mechanist always want to deal damage on melee range. Its not only for trait (both profession) but also for projectile flight-time, grenades flight time, rifle 2 and 5. 

 

2) Its irrelevant for you to bring about scholar uptime since both mechanist and virtuoso are capable to do deal damage without locked in animation / place, able to deal damage at range, and about have the same heal amount with their healing skills. There is nothing that mechanist have, to have advantage over virtuoso for scholar uptime. Of course you can argue that mechanist that have passive 262 heal / second via rectifier signet, but only a bad dps player that decide to not use the signet for heal to maintain scholar uptime. And beside, scholar uptime only relevant in instanced group content and most of time there will be a healer in this type of group, so why scholar uptime become a problem ?

 

3) This is the most baffling statement "if it is nerfed too hard there will be very little reason to run it over another power spec unless you can make use of the boon rips (which drop your DPS)". Power Virtuoso ALWAYS take phantasmal disenchanter. Its part of its dps rotation, has 5 boonstrip, and on 20 second cooldown (which is 100% boonstrip uptime for NPNG). Basically, power virtuoso has a built-in boonstrip. 

[Mell.4873]

On 10/6/2022 at 8:24 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

Virtuoso will most likely get a nerf now because distort makes it way too strong (especially as condi with way too many blades). I dont know what they were thinking here.

Virtuoso's damage doesn't need a nerf, I'm easily able to get the same or better number on Mirage mostly due to the more consistent playstyle.

Virtuoso for the most part is fine and probably won't see any number changes except maybe catching a general nerf like all conditions have 10% less damage. 

[Infusion.7149]

On 11/1/2022 at 3:00 AM, sigmundf.7523 said:

No. 100% false. Only inexperienced groups that won't allow ANY power build to run 100CM, or a speed run group. The main reason on why condi dps is preferable than power dps is to comfortably and easily push water phase into the next phase. But that doesn't mean ANY power dps isn't allowed. With NPNG (no pain, no gain) , power virtuoso / power mechanist / power alac mechanist are solid choice to take with for 100CM. 

No, this is not fact. Its your assumption. 

Rifle holosmith simply doesn't work as good as sword holosmith in PVE. Holosmith with sword on main-hand have better synergy with heat gauge and overall better dps.  

 

1) Neither rifle mechanist does 28k dps on only autoattack. Its only at 23-24k at golem, point-blank range, auto cast mech, and all condition on golem (which is not realistic). Both power virtuoso and power rifle mechanist always want to deal damage on melee range. Its not only for trait (both profession) but also for projectile flight-time, grenades flight time, rifle 2 and 5. 

 

2) Its irrelevant for you to bring about scholar uptime since both mechanist and virtuoso are capable to do deal damage without locked in animation / place, able to deal damage at range, and about have the same heal amount with their healing skills. There is nothing that mechanist have, to have advantage over virtuoso for scholar uptime. Of course you can argue that mechanist that have passive 262 heal / second via rectifier signet, but only a bad dps player that decide to not use the signet for heal to maintain scholar uptime. And beside, scholar uptime only relevant in instanced group content and most of time there will be a healer in this type of group, so why scholar uptime become a problem ?

 

3) This is the most baffling statement "if it is nerfed too hard there will be very little reason to run it over another power spec unless you can make use of the boon rips (which drop your DPS)". Power Virtuoso ALWAYS take phantasmal disenchanter. Its part of its dps rotation, has 5 boonstrip, and on 20 second cooldown (which is 100% boonstrip uptime for NPNG). Basically, power virtuoso has a built-in boonstrip. 

Your point is mech does 24K auto. That's basically holo Photon Forge. In what universe is a 24K autoattack at ranged with no resource use okay? If you wanted to do that amount on harbinger you cannot since your shroud pulses are point blank.

Also, the standard benchmarks are with 10 conditions, if you're saying it does 24K with all conditions I doubt that is accurate.

You do realize your DPS tanks due to how sword auto works on mesmers? Granted that isn't the default build right now, there's still the trait Vicious Expression which results in over 15% DPS loss if there's boons on the target. NPNG is PER target and Vengeance is on kill. Read any mesmer guide and they will tell you to run Phantasmal Defender instead if there's constant boon output since Phantasmal Disenchanter becomes lower DPS. Power Virtuoso outright loses 10% DPS if not in range of 600 or less.

 

[sigmundf.7523]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Your point is mech does 24K auto. That's basically holo Photon Forge. In what universe is a 24K autoattack at ranged with no resource use okay? If you wanted to do that amount on harbinger you cannot since your shroud pulses are point blank.
Also, the standard benchmarks are with 10 conditions, if you're saying it does 24K with all conditions I doubt that is accurate
 

I forgot to add , with all boons included. You can test it by yourself if you don't believe it, all condition on golem, autocast mech, all boons on yourself, full berserker gear, scholar rune, sigil of force + air, power and ferocity food + utility, without any +5 power infusion, basically the general power dps mech on most build guide sites.

In which universe? The currently we are at, since the number is only on a training golem. 

 

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You do realize your DPS tanks due to how sword auto works on mesmers? Granted that isn't the default build right now, there's still the trait Vicious Expression which results in over 15% DPS loss if there's boons on the target. NPNG is PER target and Vengeance is on kill. Read any mesmer guide and they will tell you to run Phantasmal Defender instead if there's constant boon output since Phantasmal Disenchanter becomes lower DPS. Power Virtuoso outright loses 10% DPS if not in range of 600 or less.

 

1) I did read a mesmer guide, a power virtuoso build and rotation guide from snowcrow site. It doesn't tell me to take phantasmal defender whatsoever. Its also the same at Metabattle, discretize, and hardstuck site. All of the guide taking phantasmal disenchanter. So I'm affraid I don't know what are you talking about.

 

2) Your concern (if i can say) about main hand sword auto is directly related with boons on target. As I stated in first point, snowcrow site, and the rest guide recommend to take phantasmal disenchanter AND using greatsword instead of sword + focus.  With the recent GS buff, using greatsword + dagger MH / sword OH, is the optimal setup for dps. And when someone choose to play DPS role with power virtuoso, it is their responsibility to deliver the most optimal DPS output in a content where DPS matters. Sword as main hand in power virtouoso is not only suboptimal, its also become completely irrelevant in relation with boons on enemy and mesmer's sword autos. Phantasm disenchanter not only helps power virtuoso to stock blades (as other phantasm skills do), it also help stripping boons from priority target. Only NPNG instability that is matter, more than vengeance (at least in T4 CM).

 

However, your statement about Phantasmal Defender is better than Phantasmal Disenchanter might be true where there are constant boons on multiple enemies that are priority targets, like 5 legendary or champion enemy with boons that need to be cleaved in order to complete the encounter. But then it becomes a completely different issue since its about cleave damage, not about boon removal. Even in HT CM where such condition can be encountered, albeit not legendary enemies and not always 5 targets, I haven't seen any virtuoso taking phastamal defender. 

 

3) Why the matter of range is a thing again ? Both power dps mechanist, and power dps virtuoso WANTS to dps at melee range. And don't pretend that power mechanist is also not losing dps if not in 450 range. 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by sigmundf.7523

[Infusion.7149]

5 hours ago, sigmundf.7523 said:

I forgot to add , with all boons included. You can test it by yourself if you don't believe it, all condition on golem, autocast mech, all boons on yourself, full berserker gear, scholar rune, sigil of force + air, power and ferocity food + utility, without any +5 power infusion, basically the general power dps mech on most build guide sites.

In which universe? The currently we are at, since the number is only on a training golem. 

 

1) I did read a mesmer guide, a power virtuoso build and rotation guide from snowcrow site. It doesn't tell me to take phantasmal defender whatsoever. Its also the same at Metabattle, discretize, and hardstuck site. All of the guide taking phantasmal disenchanter. So I'm affraid I don't know what are you talking about.

 

2) Your concern (if i can say) about main hand sword auto is directly related with boons on target. As I stated in first point, snowcrow site, and the rest guide recommend to take phantasmal disenchanter AND using greatsword instead of sword + focus.  With the recent GS buff, using greatsword + dagger MH / sword OH, is the optimal setup for dps. And when someone choose to play DPS role with power virtuoso, it is their responsibility to deliver the most optimal DPS output in a content where DPS matters. Sword as main hand in power virtouoso is not only suboptimal, its also become completely irrelevant in relation with boons on enemy and mesmer's sword autos. Phantasm disenchanter not only helps power virtuoso to stock blades (as other phantasm skills do), it also help stripping boons from priority target. Only NPNG instability that is matter, more than vengeance (at least in T4 CM).

 

However, your statement about Phantasmal Defender is better than Phantasmal Disenchanter might be true where there are constant boons on multiple enemies that are priority targets, like 5 legendary or champion enemy with boons that need to be cleaved in order to complete the encounter. But then it becomes a completely different issue since its about cleave damage, not about boon removal. Even in HT CM where such condition can be encountered, albeit not legendary enemies and not always 5 targets, I haven't seen any virtuoso taking phastamal defender. 

 

3) Why the matter of range is a thing again ? Both power dps mechanist, and power dps virtuoso WANTS to dps at melee range. And don't pretend that power mechanist is also not losing dps if not in 450 range. 

 

You aren't using infusions and have the gall to tell me that your number is correct. In addition to that you don't even realize that mechanist damage doesn't scale with number of boons so long as the basics are covered, it only scales with conditions. The fact that you won't acknowledge that the build was overperforming nearly every power DPS in real scenarios unless in a group with speedclear level players is also completely ridiculous.

That's cute. You are only referencing the latest guides when you don't know about the person that actually makes said power mesmer guides, which is Tipcat.

You still don't realize that autoattacks on mechanist don't rely on being at melee. There is a loss of at most 10% crit for the engi itself but engi is overcapped on crit. In contrast you lose a flat 10% of damage on virtuoso which is far worse than not criting for <10% of the time. Your math is entirely incorrect and it has been reviewed multiple times in the other thread.

[Kuma.1503]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You aren't using infusions and have the gall to tell me that your number is correct. In addition to that you don't even realize that mechanist damage doesn't scale with number of boons so long as the basics are covered, it only scales with conditions. The fact that you won't acknowledge that the build was overperforming nearly every power DPS in real scenarios unless in a group with speedclear level players is also completely ridiculous.

That's cute. You are only referencing the latest guides when you don't know about the person that actually makes said power mesmer guides, which is Tipcat.

Not going to lie, you sound like one of those cartoon movie villains who is entirely too full of themselves. 

"You have the GALL to approach ME with such numbers as you lug around your peasant build with NO INFUSIONS Away with you swine. I am through with this conversation"!

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You still don't realize that autoattacks on mechanist don't rely on being at melee. There is a loss of at most 10% crit for the engi itself but engi is overcapped on crit. In contrast you lose a flat 10% of damage on virtuoso which is far worse than not criting for <10% of the time. Your math is entirely incorrect and it has been reviewed multiple times in the other thread.

This has been discussed before, but for someone whos seems so intent in pointing out nuance, you enjoy leaving out the nuance that contradicts what you're trying to say. 

Lets set these numbers straight real quick. 

With a full set of Berserker ascended gear, Mechanist reaches 50.71% crit chance. Lets just round that up to 51%

With fury and Hematic Focus active, they reach 91% crit chance. So while you are correct that they are losing <10% crit chance at range, it is deceptive to say that engi overcaps crit in this context. (This context being that you are standing at 1200 range). Engi overcaps crit by 6% when within 450 range of the target. The fact that you bring this up at all implies that there IS an incintive for the engi to stand in range to benefit from High Caliber, otherwise, why would you mention this as a talking point at all?

Seems a bit convenient to bring it up when it suits you, and hand wave it away when it does not. 

 

We're also entirely ignoring bludnerbuss and the role it plays in the rotation. You are hitting this off cooldown (every 4.5 seconds with alacrity), and this skill does progressively more damage the closer you are to your target. Is losing a bit of damage on blunderbuss as relevant as dealing zero damage on a melee build when out of range of the boss? No. 

But it is not irrelevant either. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Jerus.4350]

11 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Not going to lie, you sound like one of those cartoon movie villains who is entirely too full of themselves. 

"You have the GALL to approach ME with such numbers as you lug around your peasant build with NO INFUSIONS Away with you swine. I am through with this conversation"!

 

Dude's name is Infusion, I think it makes sense 😛

[Infusion.7149]

14 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Not going to lie, you sound like one of those cartoon movie villains who is entirely too full of themselves. 

"You have the GALL to approach ME with such numbers as you lug around your peasant build with NO INFUSIONS Away with you swine. I am through with this conversation"!

This has been discussed before, but for someone whos seems so intent in pointing out nuance, you enjoy leaving out the nuance that contradicts what you're trying to say. 

Lets set these numbers straight real quick. 

With a full set of Berserker ascended gear, Mechanist reaches 50.71% crit chance. Lets just round that up to 51%

With fury and Hematic Focus active, they reach 91% crit chance. So while you are correct that they are losing <10% crit chance at range, it is deceptive to say that engi overcaps crit in this context. (This context being that you are standing at 1200 range). Engi overcaps crit by 6% when within 450 range of the target. The fact that you bring this up at all implies that there IS an incintive for the engi to stand in range to benefit from High Caliber, otherwise, why would you mention this as a talking point at all?

Seems a bit convenient to bring it up when it suits you, and hand wave it away when it does not. 

 

We're also entirely ignoring bludnerbuss and the role it plays in the rotation. You are hitting this off cooldown (every 4.5 seconds with alacrity), and this skill does progressively more damage the closer you are to your target. Is losing a bit of damage on blunderbuss as relevant as dealing zero damage on a melee build when out of range of the boss? No. 

But it is not irrelevant either. 

 

 

 

 

You're literally rephrasing what I wrote. What part of 10% crit not being the same as 10% damage modifier is not clear?
Also blunderbuss is not autoattack.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You're literally rephrasing what I wrote. What part of 10% crit not being the same as 10% damage modifier is not clear?
Also blunderbuss is not autoattack.

I was attempting to present your argument fairly while pointing out nuance. Hence the paraphrasing. 

 

I decided to calculate how much damage someone would lose by not critting 10% of the time vs how much they'd lose by removing a 10% modifier. Just so we can visualize the difference. How significant is it?

 

Mechanist hits 233.67% ferocity with food. They also gain an extra 150 ferocity from no-scope which equals out to 10% ferocity. For 244.67% ferocity

Lets start with an example where Mechanist crits 90% of the time.

Lets say their auto attack does 1000 damage. On crits, they will deal 2446 damage (assuming the game rounds down)

If they auto attack 100 times in a boss fight, on average, 90 of those attacks will crit for 2446 damage and 10 will deal the normal 1000 damage. 

The total damage dealt is 230140 damage

The damage they would have dealt if all attacks crit is  244600 damage. 

About a 6% dps loss in total. 

 

Lets imagine if Mechanst instead lost a 10% damage modifier. To calculate how much damage they would have done without this modifier active, I divide by 1000 by 1.1 Giving me a new total of 909.09 damage. 

Multiply by 244.67% and they will crit for 2224.27 damage. I'll round that down to 2224. 

If they auto attack 100 times in a fight they will deal 222400 damage. 

If they had their modifier active they would have done 244600 damage. 

About a 9% dps loss. 

 

In the end the difference is lost DPS is about 3%. So unless my logic is flawed here, we should be able to extrapolate this by saying Virtuoso loses about 3% more auto attack dps by standing at range compared to Mech. 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I was attempting to present your argument fairly while pointing out nuance. Hence the paraphrasing. 

 

I decided to calculate how much damage someone would lose by not critting 10% of the time vs how much they'd lose by removing a 10% modifier. Just so we can visualize the difference. How significant is it?

 

Mechanist hits 233.67% ferocity with food. They also gain an extra 150 ferocity from no-scope which equals out to 10% ferocity. For 244.67% ferocity

Lets start with an example where Mechanist crits 90% of the time.

Lets say their auto attack does 1000 damage. On crits, they will deal 2446 damage (assuming the game rounds down)

If they auto attack 100 times in a boss fight, on average, 90 of those attacks will crit for 2446 damage and 10 will deal the normal 1000 damage. 

The total damage dealt is 230140 damage

The damage they would have dealt if all attacks crit is  244600 damage. 

About a 6% dps loss in total. 

 

Lets imagine if Mechanst instead lost a 10% damage modifier. To calculate how much damage they would have done without this modifier active, I divide by 1000 by 1.1 Giving me a new total of 909.09 damage. 

Multiply by 244.67% and they will crit for 2224.27 damage. I'll round that down to 2224. 

If they auto attack 100 times in a fight they will deal 222400 damage. 

If they had their modifier active they would have done 244600 damage. 

About a 9% dps loss. 

 

In the end the difference is lost DPS is about 3%. So unless my logic is flawed here, we should be able to extrapolate this by saying Virtuoso loses about 3% more auto attack dps by standing at range compared to Mech. 

 

And there is the flaw in your thinking. A virtuoso is not doing 20K+ autos to begin with. Damage is heavily loaded onto bladesong burst and requires it in order to maintain the Deadly Blades 5% buff on power virtuosos. That is not to mention buffs such as Vicious Expression which drop your damage by 15% against fractal mobs with boons on them and the complete inability to activate Fencer's Finesse by autoing (it's 15 ferocity = 1% crit per stack). 

P.S. if your idea of being fair is comparing people to a cartoon villain I'd hate to know what constitutes as unfair in your mind

Edited November 5, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

23 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

And there is the flaw in your thinking. A virtuoso is not doing 20K+ autos to begin with. Damage is heavily loaded onto bladesong burst and requires it in order to maintain the Deadly Blades 5% buff on power virtuosos. That is not to mention buffs such as Vicious Expression which drop your damage by 15% against fractal mobs with boons on them and the complete inability to activate Fencer's Finesse by autoing (it's 15 ferocity = 1% crit per stack). 

P.S. if your idea of being fair is comparing people to a cartoon villain I'd hate to know what constitutes as unfair in your mind

While I do not disagree with you here. There is a crucial reason why I listed percentages in regards to auto attack DPS lost.  Naturally virt and Mech deal different amounts of auto attack dps. I never claimed otherwise. 

You are also bringing up nuance when convenient and waving it away when inconvenient again. Just one post prior you disregarded the point I brought up about blunderbuss stating "that's not auto attack DPS". In hindsight, fair enough, Blunderbuss has nothing to do with auto attack dps. 

In response to that I decided to take an unbiased look at how much auto attack DPS is lost when losing 10% crit vs 10% damage mod. 

To which you respond... by mentioning things that have nothing to do with auto attack dps. The exact same thing you called me out on. 

 

The points you're making are not illogical. The things you're saying, as far as I can tell, are correct. But the way you argue makes it difficult to have a productive conversation. 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

12 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

*inhale* 

Okay. While I do not disagree with you here. There is a crucial reason why I listed percentages and stated "this is how much auto attack dps is lost". Naturally virt and Mech deal different amounts of auto attack dps. I never claimed otherwise. 

You are also bringing up nuance when convenient and waving it away when inconvenient again. Just one post prior you disregarded the point I brought up about blunderbuss stating "that's not auto attack DPS". In hindsight, fair enough, Blunderbuss has nothing to do with auto attack dps. 

In response to that I decided to take an unbiased look at how much auto attack DPS is lost when losing 10% crit vs 10% damage mod. 

To which you respond... by mentioning things that have nothing to do with auto attack dps. The exact same thing you called me out on. 

 

The points you're making are not illogical. The things you're saying, as far as I can tell, are correct. But the way you argue makes it difficult to have a productive conversation. As I said before, you're bringing up nuance when it's convenient and ignoring it when inconvenient. 

 

Why mention blunderbuss when someone bumped a 4 week thread to say that mech doesn't do 28k auto anymore?

Your whole defense of the above post by sigmundf boils down to blunderbuss and the idea that somehow loss of <10% crit chance is horrific for mechanist.

So 1. the person stated I don't know what I'm talking about on mesmer... when I have at least as many thousands of hours on mesmer (mostly on chrono) as on engineer while they "read a guide" and probably only PVE 2. they are talking about testing benchmarks and don't even use the right setup

Plus the reason why I mention all those modifiers are you aren't going to activate any of them auto-attacking, which is 100% relevant to what they stated along with losing 15% DPS due to enemies having boons.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

22 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why mention blunderbuss when someone bumped a 4 week thread to say that mech doesn't do 28k auto anymore?

Your whole defense of the above post by sigmundf boils down to blunderbuss and the idea that somehow loss of <10% crit chance is horrific for mechanist.

So 1. the person stated I don't know what I'm talking about on mesmer... when I have at least as many thousands of hours on mesmer (mostly on chrono) as on engineer while they "read a guide" and probably only PVE 2. they are talking about testing benchmarks and don't even use the right setup

I have thousands of hours on engi. While that may give some credence to my words it does not mean that they are automatically correct. 

Lets set the record straight here. Losing 10% crit is not as bad as losing 10% dps. 

The point I am making is not that losing 10% crit (mathed out to roughly 6% damage loss) + blunderbuss DPS is catastrophic. Mech still has the most stable dps floor out of all classes. My point was simply that these two factors are not insignificant and bear mentioning. Alone neither are a huge deal, but taken together, there is roughly equal incintive for a Mech to stay within the range threshold as there is for a virtuoso. 

Or to phrase it another way. Losing 10% damage =/= losing 10% crit chance. 

Virt Losing 10% damage (roughly) = Mech losing 6% damage + losing blunderbuss damage. 

 

There are, of course, other factors for why Virt is a more punishing spec than mech overall, but the point I'm trying to isolate here is the reason why a Mech would want to stand within 450 units of a boss and why a Virt would want to stand within 600 range.

I believe that both should be standing within 450 (edit: 600 for virtuoso) range of the boss whenever possible. It is not an insignificant DPS loss in either case when standing at max range. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I have thousands of hours on engi. While that may give some credence to my words it does not mean that they are automatically correct. 

Lets set the record straight here. Losing 10% crit is not as bad as losing 10% dps. 

The point I am making is not that losing 10% crit (mathed out to roughly 6% damage loss) + blunderbuss DPS is catastrophic. Mech still has the most stable dps floor out of all classes. My point was simply that these two factors are not insignificant and bear mentioning. Alone neither are a huge deal, but taken together, there is roughly equal incintive for a Mech to stay within the range threshold as there is for a virtuoso. 

Or to phrase it another way. Losing 10% damage =/= losing 10% crit chance. 

Virt Losing 10% damage (roughly) = Mech losing 6% damage + losing blunderbuss damage. 

 

There are, of course, other factors for why Virt is a more punishing spec than mech overall, but the point I'm trying to isolate here is the reason why a Mech would want to stand within 450 units of a boss and why a Virt would.

I believe that both should be standing within 450 (edit: 600 for virtuoso) range of the boss whenever possible. It is not an insignificant DPS loss in either case when standing at max range. 

Why do you feel that is worth mentioning when that has literally nothing to do with what I was responding to, which was an outright personal attack if I was sensitive to it?

To recap: What you responded to and ridiculed is the following 3 points:

1. engi is overcapped on crit normally,

2. you lose 10% crit when ranging,

3. the test conditions were not to a normal standard

I also have thousands of edits for skill balance on the wiki. I don't just play and copy builds.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[cyberzombie.7348]

"How is mechanist nerfed but not..." Because dps was never the sole reason. What makes it relatively strong is that much of the Jade bot's attack are long-range. Ranged AI typically function far better than melee (sometimes even better than players in terms of tracking), all due to the fact that there's less repositioning & map pathing to needed maintain dps. Allowing far more persistent and reliable damage in comparison to ranger's pets.

 

Combine that with the ability to buff and heal it just like any other player or npc. Along with engineer's ability to persistently chain skill combos makes room for a pretty nasty build in the right hands.

[Kuma.1503]

39 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why do you feel that is worth mentioning when that has literally nothing to do with what I was responding to, which was an outright personal attack if I was sensitive to it?

To recap: What you responded to and ridiculed is the following 3 points:

1. engi is overcapped on crit normally,

2. you lose 10% crit when ranging,

3. the test conditions were not to a normal standard

I also have thousands of edits for skill balance on the wiki. I don't just play and copy builds.

That super villian comment was meant to point out how you came across in that post if that's what you're alluding to. 

I mean, I get it, proving some one wrong who you perceive as being less knowledgeable, or less intelligent than you makes brain release happy chemicals. And you do seem to enjoy coming off as genreally more knowlegable than others with comments such as "that's cute"  "I have X hours on engi and mesmer".

"I have over 1000 edits. While you were playing open world I was honing my craft on the Gw2 Wiki, come back when you're on my level scrub". 

...For legal purposes last one was  exaggerated for comedic effect. 

 

As for the flow of conversation, it seems logical enough to me. 

"You lose 10% crit when ranging"

"That's not as significant as losing 10% dps on Virtuoso. Plus Mechanist overcaps crit anyway (implying the 10% crit loss is irrelevant)"

"Mech also loses Blunderbuss DPS when standing at range. That is relevant is it not"?

"Not to this conversation we are talking about auto attack dps."

"Fair enough. lets look at exactly how much 10% crit loss is vs 10% damage loss."

 

And here we are. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

21 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

That super villian comment was meant to point out how you came across in that post if that's what you're alluding to. 

I mean, I get it, proving some one wrong who you perceive as being less knowledgeable, or less intelligent than you makes brain release happy chemicals. And you do seem to enjoy coming off as genreally more knowlegable than others with comments such as "that's cute"  "I have X hours on engi and mesmer".

"I have over 1000 edits. While you were playing open world I was honing my craft on the Gw2 Wiki, come back when you're on my level scrub". 

...For legal purposes last one was  exaggerated for comedic effect. 

 

As for the flow of conversation, it seems logical enough to me. 

"You lose 10% crit when ranging"

"That's not as significant as losing 10% dps on Virtuoso. Plus Mechanist overcaps crit anyway (implying the 10% crit loss is irrelevant)"

"Mech also loses Blunderbuss DPS when standing at range. That is relevant is it not"?

"Not relevant because Mech does more auto attack dps"

"Fair enough. lets look at exactly how much 10% crit loss is vs 10% damage loss."

 

And here we are. 

The only reason you think I'm a "super villian" is because you defend mech every step of the way even when it is broken.

If instead you had the game's overall health at interest you wouldn't think that bumping a 4 week old thread (pre October patch) just to insult someone and argue about numbers that aren't even relevant in the current patch is worthwhile.

You can reframe it however you want but the original post above which was criticizing my month old assessment (which was correct based off the subsequent balance) was based off autoattacks.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

21 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The only reason you think I'm a "super villian" is because you defend mech every step of the way even when it is broken.

If instead you had the game's overall health at interest you wouldn't think that bumping a 4 week old thread (pre October patch) just to insult someone and argue about numbers that aren't even relevant in the current patch is worthwhile.

You can reframe it however you want but the original post above which was criticizing my month old assessment (which was correct based off the subsequent balance) was based off autoattacks.

If you think I haven't presented your arguments fairly, feel free to point out where, and I will edit my earlier statements. There have been numerous points throughout the discussion where I've agreed with your points even when they should go against my supposed agenda of "defending mechanist at every step". 

I mentioned this in an earlier post. About how it can be difficult to have a productive discussion when you attempt to present other's arguments fairly and they have no qualms setting up conveneint, easily debunkable stawmen in an attempt to be "right" at all costs. 

But this is the first time someone has gone so far as to bend the very fabric of time to do so. I responded a mere 5 hours after you did. Bit different than bumping a 4 week old thread no?

Fair enough though, we'll drop this conversation here if you wish. Or you can respond to get the last word in if it makes you feel better. Either way I will not respond to you again. 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[sigmundf.7523]

17 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You aren't using infusions and have the gall to tell me that your number is correct. In addition to that you don't even realize that mechanist damage doesn't scale with number of boons so long as the basics are covered, it only scales with conditions. The fact that you won't acknowledge that the build was overperforming nearly every power DPS in real scenarios unless in a group with speedclear level players is also completely ridiculous.

 

17 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You still don't realize that autoattacks on mechanist don't rely on being at melee. There is a loss of at most 10% crit for the engi itself but engi is overcapped on crit. In contrast you lose a flat 10% of damage on virtuoso which is far worse than not criting for <10% of the time. Your math is entirely incorrect and it has been reviewed multiple times in the other thread.

I apologize, my previous statement about 24k dps is incorrect since it seems I missed something, either condition on golems, or food, or utility. However, this is the numbers that I able to pull with only autoattack and mech auto cast. No infusion, full berserker, scholar, sigil of force + air, food + utility (power, precision)., all boons + all condi on golem. 

Inside 450 range https://imgur.com/GwW9Gqo , 25,6k dps

Outside 450 range https://imgur.com/8BVNST2 , 24,6k dps

Beside that, why range is an issue again ? Since both profession are always want to be in melee range to deal optimal DPS. Also, the most obvious thing, neither mechanist or virtouso is only auto-attacking when doing dps. 

 

There's that, now let me address some issues here.

 

First and foremost, I don't acknowledge power dps mechanist or any power dps for overperforming in real scenarios, outside higher difficulty instanced content such as CM (T4 fractals, Strikes, or raids) or a speedrun group. GW2 has close to 0 sense of competitiveness in term of player's power progression, which is an objective goal. What I mean by this, is that player are not forced or does not have to compete with other players in doing and clearing PVE contents in order to gain power, such as gears. Players are able to earn their highest power gears, which is ascended gears, from various PVE contents with various barrier of entry. Starting from the lowest barrier of entry which is crafting, to open world meta, to fractals (T1 to T4), to strikes and raids.

 

Compared to other mmos, particularly a famous one which is WoW, player's gear progression in GW2 does not affected by specific profession / elite spec performances in PVE content. For example in WoW PVE contents, your gear progression mainly comes from raids and mythic dungeons, and those content tuned differently compared to GW2. Public groups will favor certain class and spec, and will reject you if you are playing an underperforming class / spec. If you are rejected, then there is no way you can progress your gear further. However in GW2, whether you are playing a flavor of the month profession, or other profession that the community deemed to be "bad" or underperform, you are able to progress your gears. 

 

Even then, outside CM, the difficulty ceiling for fractals, strikes, and raids, are not that high. As long as you are competent enough in your roles, you and your group will be able to clear those contents and get the rewards. I haven't seen a single public groups that do bite-size PVE contents, only accepting mechanist as power dps role (even before the nerfs). Whether power dps mechanist is pulling high dps numbers with easy rotation / gameplay or not, there is almost 0 consequences that will negatively affect other players to achieve their objective in PVE contents.

 

That is why I do not acknowledge power dps mechanist (or any other spec) being "overperforming", whether before, now, or in the future. It has no effect on me whether power dps mechanist is number 1 dps or not. I still able to clear PVE contents with whichever profession and roles I want to play. I just need to do my roles properly and get my rewards. However, it will be a different story with higher difficulty contents such as CM modes, because there will be more variables to take into account in clearing the contents.

 

17 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's cute. You are only referencing the latest guides when you don't know about the person that actually makes said power mesmer guides, which is Tipcat.

Yes, I only referencing the latest guide because why shouldn't I ? Why should I try to find the author of the guides from the sites I mentioned before ? The guide is there, its concise and comprehensive. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by sigmundf.7523

[Infusion.7149]

10 hours ago, sigmundf.7523 said:

 

I apologize, my previous statement about 24k dps is incorrect since it seems I missed something, either condition on golems, or food, or utility. However, this is the numbers that I able to pull with only autoattack and mech auto cast. No infusion, full berserker, scholar, sigil of force + air, food + utility (power, precision)., all boons + all condi on golem. 

Inside 450 range https://imgur.com/GwW9Gqo , 25,6k dps

Outside 450 range https://imgur.com/8BVNST2 , 24,6k dps

Beside that, why range is an issue again ? Since both profession are always want to be in melee range to deal optimal DPS. Also, the most obvious thing, neither mechanist or virtouso is only auto-attacking when doing dps. 

 

There's that, now let me address some issues here.

 

First and foremost, I don't acknowledge power dps mechanist or any power dps for overperforming in real scenarios, outside higher difficulty instanced content such as CM (T4 fractals, Strikes, or raids) or a speedrun group. GW2 has close to 0 sense of competitiveness in term of player's power progression, which is an objective goal. What I mean by this, is that player are not forced or does not have to compete with other players in doing and clearing PVE contents in order to gain power, such as gears. Players are able to earn their highest power gears, which is ascended gears, from various PVE contents with various barrier of entry. Starting from the lowest barrier of entry which is crafting, to open world meta, to fractals (T1 to T4), to strikes and raids.

 

Compared to other mmos, particularly a famous one which is WoW, player's gear progression in GW2 does not affected by specific profession / elite spec performances in PVE content. For example in WoW PVE contents, your gear progression mainly comes from raids and mythic dungeons, and those content tuned differently compared to GW2. Public groups will favor certain class and spec, and will reject you if you are playing an underperforming class / spec. If you are rejected, then there is no way you can progress your gear further. However in GW2, whether you are playing a flavor of the month profession, or other profession that the community deemed to be "bad" or underperform, you are able to progress your gears. 

 

Even then, outside CM, the difficulty ceiling for fractals, strikes, and raids, are not that high. As long as you are competent enough in your roles, you and your group will be able to clear those contents and get the rewards. I haven't seen a single public groups that do bite-size PVE contents, only accepting mechanist as power dps role (even before the nerfs). Whether power dps mechanist is pulling high dps numbers with easy rotation / gameplay or not, there is almost 0 consequences that will negatively affect other players to achieve their objective in PVE contents.

 

That is why I do not acknowledge power dps mechanist (or any other spec) being "overperforming", whether before, now, or in the future. It has no effect on me whether power dps mechanist is number 1 dps or not. I still able to clear PVE contents with whichever profession and roles I want to play. I just need to do my roles properly and get my rewards. However, it will be a different story with higher difficulty contents such as CM modes, because there will be more variables to take into account in clearing the contents.

 

Yes, I only referencing the latest guide because why shouldn't I ? Why should I try to find the author of the guides from the sites I mentioned before ? The guide is there, its concise and comprehensive. 

 

 

If you have no interest in balance, why comment on a balance topic? Comments like that baffle me.

Moreover why even comment on a month old thread that is BEFORE the nerf went into effect?

What you posted just reinforces the fact that what I wrote in response to you above is correct. Your numbers actually exceed 24K DPS at range, which goes against the very idea that it is weak. Even before banner reworks holo forge was ~ 25K in melee and you cannot just use it indefinitely.

 

[Ghos.1326]

I'll say that mech is fine due to the fact that taking mech eliminates your toolbelt skills so you really only have mech's skills and autos and then your own. (yes this is an old thread just wanted to put my stinky two cents in)

buff engi peestol pweease