Addressing the "Who Can? To Who Can't"

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

A few patches ago there was a more in depth discussion things were changed/adjusted to give other classes more defined roles burt some things still were never touched on. To simplify the suggestion below, no one should feel required to play a class they dont know very well, play a class thats not fully equipped and especially not forced into one they don't enjoy just based on the premise that "We need you to run quickness firebrand."

 

This isnt fair to the individual based on their playstyle(s) , its unfair to the group waiting on the role to be filled [looking at lfg pug groups]. Face it, everyone here got the game originally from peer pressure/o mainly have fun their own way, why dish out the money to bend to others' wants and desires when you don't always like to tank or handkite. It's counterintuitive to the majority of the playerbase...yes some of you don't mind changing charaters or builds for the team and for that I and others salute you { o7 o7 o7 }

 

Setting the above as a basis for what I personally, suggest after being in many guilds, seeing group mentalities of toxicity and frankly "liking 1 class" over the course of 10 years is this:

With 1 core and 3 elite specializations of every profession theres a way to fill any and every role. It may not be as existant as it should be right now but this suggestion would be a great step in the right direction.

 

Example:

1.

Deadeye would specialize in 1 specific 5 man ally boon like "Quickness"

Specter would specialize in Alacrity

Daredevil would specialize in other boons

Core would as well.

Do with it what it what you will for each profession whether it fits the theme of the class or thematically for a traitline.

With this any profession can fill the who can-cant role while still being able to excel in other areas than most otherl classes which would open up more interestin team compositions and even opening more room for new players to enjoy a playstyle while still beinf detriment to group support through boon application (looking at the AoE trait Unrelenting Strikes as an example)

 

Heres to hope everyone can have their cake and eat it too. I just dont want anyone left out and want this game to coninue on for many years to come

Edited October 6, 2022 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Linken.6345]

Wont help firebrand is not just taken for quickness it is the other utility they can switch out at will and still do their jobb like wall of reflection and stand your ground being two prime example

[Zaret.1450]

48 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

A few patches ago there was a more in deoin depth discussdiscussion things were changed/adjusted to give other classes more defined roles burt some things still were never touched on. To simplify the suggestion below, no one should feel required to play a class they dont know very well, play a class thats not fully equipped and especially not forced into one they don't enjoy just based on the premise that "We need you to run quickness firebrand."

 

This isnt fair to the individual based on their playstyle(s) , its unfair to the group waiting on the role to be filled [looking at lfg pug groups]. Face it, everyone here got the game originally from peer pressure/o mainly have fun their own way, why dish out the money to bend to others' wants and desires when you don't always like to tank or handkite. It's counterintuitive to the majority of the playerbase...yes some of you don't mind changing charaters or builds for the team and for that I and others salute you { o7 o7 o7 }

 

Setting the above as a basis for what I personally, suggest after being in many guilds, seeing group mentalities of toxicity and frankly "liking 1 class" over the course of 10 years is this:

With 1 core and 3 elite specializations of every profession theres a way to fill any and every role. It may not be as existant as it should be right now but this suggestion would be a great step in the right direction.

 

Example:

1.

Deadeye would specialize in 1 specific 5 man ally boon like "Quickness"

Specter would specialize in Alacrity

Daredevil would specialize in other boons

Core would as well.

Do with it what it what you will for each profession whether it fits the theme of the class or thematically for a traitline.

With this any profession can fill the who can-cant role while still being able to excel in other areas than most otherl classes which would open up more interestin team compositions and even opening more room for new players to enjoy a playstyle while still beinf detriment to group support through boon application (looking at the AoE trait Unrelenting Strikes as an example)

 

Heres to hope everyone can have their cake and eat it too. I just dont want anyone left out and want this game to coninue on for many years to come

while i agree id like to make one remark.

Not every elite needs a diferent boon, what i mean is the core class being thief, i think spectre having alacrity and being able to go dps alac or heal alac(the heal would need some help to be good i think) that for me is enought, i mean that deadeye and daredevil dont realy need boons, if you like suport and thief a spectre will probably fit your tastes, while deadeye being a sniper and daredevil being an agressive one too dont realy need the boon part, dare has power and condi if im not wrong and deadeye is a dps and a good kiter too, you could leave those as they are and just buff or nerf so they arent OP nor in hell.

For other classes it could make sense to have diferent specs with diferent boons though, and id say the most important boons are alac quick and stab right now, with different importance being in pve wvw or pvp, as for fury, power etc those are id say core boons that everyone has or arent as impactfull because the sources are common, so one elite having alac and stab and another quick is fine, but just one elite that can cover one or two of those boons is good too

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

17 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

while i agree id like to make one remark.

Not every elite needs a diferent boon, what i mean is the core class being thief, i think spectre having alacrity and being able to go dps alac or heal alac(the heal would need some help to be good i think) that for me is enought, i mean that deadeye and daredevil dont realy need boons, if you like suport and thief a spectre will probably fit your tastes, while deadeye being a sniper and daredevil being an agressive one too dont realy need the boon part, dare has power and condi if im not wrong and deadeye is a dps and a good kiter too, you could leave those as they are and just buff or nerf so they arent OP nor in hell.

For other classes it could make sense to have diferent specs with diferent boons though, and id say the most important boons are alac quick and stab right now, with different importance being in pve wvw or pvp, as for fury, power etc those are id say core boons that everyone has or arent as impactfull because the sources are common, so one elite having alac and stab and another quick is fine, but just one elite that can cover one or two of those boons is good too

Each class with cire and all elite specs being mentioned, would could u see being done?

[Zaret.1450]

1 minute ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Each class with cire and all elite specs being mentioned, would could u see being done?

i didnt understand you there what do i see bein done?

[Cuks.8241]

Having raid group composition dictated by buff/boon coverage is bad. Blizzard found that out somewhere after Woltk if I remember correctly, when the great stat and buff homogenisation took place (I might have missed an expansion).

On the other hand its mostly just in player's minds that all these compositions are required at all in this game. We dont have some hard raiding here. I did a W1 training run not long a go. When tank asked about toughness at the start, a few of the dps had quite decent toughness and our ele dps had so much toughness, the tank had a problem getting all that toughness together 🙂 We 1 shot VG, Gorseval we failed once so people got a grasp on the immobilising spirit mechanics and Sabetha took a few tries so all players grasped the cannon mechanic. You dont need to min max for this.

[god fragment.5716]

15 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Having raid group composition dictated by buff/boon coverage is bad. Blizzard found that out somewhere after Woltk if I remember correctly, when the great stat and buff homogenisation took place (I might have missed an expansion).

On the other hand its mostly just in player's minds that all these compositions are required at all in this game. We dont have some hard raiding here. I did a W1 training run not long a go. When tank asked about toughness at the start, a few of the dps had quite decent toughness and our ele dps had so much toughness, the tank had a problem getting all that toughness together 🙂 We 1 shot VG, Gorseval we failed once so people got a grasp on the immobilising spirit mechanics and Sabetha took a few tries so all players grasped the cannon mechanic. You dont need to min max for this.

While I absolutely agree that roles are not good for the game, the problem is the shift in game design from HoT raids to the EoD strikes. HoT raids were designed for groups without specific roles, but the players introduced them in order to cheese and skip certain mechanics by healing or outdpsing. The greens at VG being an example for the former and Gorseval for the latter. This shift in group composition was of course noticed by anet and they took it into account when designing later content most notably the EoD strikes that are very hard if not impossible be completed without these roles. With this, we now have a major discrepancy in the core philosophy of encounter desigh and consequentially proffesion desigh. Going back to the original design philosophy would require a major redesign and in some parts direct undoing of design choices made over the last few years, which is just not possible at this point.

[Astralporing.1957]

18 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Having raid group composition dictated by buff/boon coverage is bad. Blizzard found that out somewhere after Woltk if I remember correctly, when the great stat and buff homogenisation took place (I might have missed an expansion).

On the other hand its mostly just in player's minds that all these compositions are required at all in this game. We dont have some hard raiding here. I did a W1 training run not long a go. When tank asked about toughness at the start, a few of the dps had quite decent toughness and our ele dps had so much toughness, the tank had a problem getting all that toughness together 🙂 We 1 shot VG, Gorseval we failed once so people got a grasp on the immobilising spirit mechanics and Sabetha took a few tries so all players grasped the cannon mechanic. You dont need to min max for this.

You don't need to min-max for this, true. What you're missing is that boons are not just a case of min-maxing. They increase your damage to such a massive degree that there's just no option to go without them.

When i say "to a massive degree" i don't mean just +20% or even +50%. I mean as much as tripling your damage. So, someone doing a respectable 21k on boss, without boons might end up doing somewhere around 7k. What is worse, lack of boons doesn't just nerf damage from one player, but from the whole (sub)squad.

That is why raid group composition is dictated by boons. And why, as long as boons will keep being such a massive force multiplier, they will always remain primary concern.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:31 AM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

With 1 core and 3 elite specializations of every profession theres a way to fill any and every role. It may not be as existant as it should be right now but this suggestion would be a great step in the right direction.

The issue I have with this is eSpecs can play very differently and I don't necessarily see the difference between asking someone to change Professions or eSpecs.  Like, Chrono DPS and Chrono Support are similar to each other but, totally different when compared to Virtuoso DPS and Mirage DPS and Support.  Saying that, I do not support giving all Professions/eSpecs equal access to Boon/Support roles.

I believe it would be healthier for the game and its players to have a handful of eSpecs that are focused on support rather than trying to make it fit everyone across the board.  Like if I want to choose a Support or Heal role, I should choose the profession and eSpec that can do that, not expect to modify what I am already playing (I look at Ranger and Druid as an example of this.  Druid is obviously intended to be Support first DPS second).

If the idea was to give all professions and eSpecs equal access I would suggest each Profession have a Core Trait Tree revamped to include all Support.  Imagine having the GM traits in this tree being "Provide Stab" - "Provide Alacrity" - "Provide Quick" in some form, and if your squad needs you to fulfill that role, you take the appropriate trait, nerf your DPS a little but presto, you're doing the thing.

I also feel that Boons and Support in this game are in an odd place.  There is no reward for being good at fulfilling a support role.  Like being good at giving Alacrity or Healing doesn't really change the way you play, you are still stacked up pressing buttons on CD, maybe waiting to pop that CC Skill or Stun Breaker.  In other games choosing to fulfill a support role came with unique challenges and rewards for being good at it.

It's coming from those games that makes me look at eSpecs like the Druid and think, we need more Support first eSpecs in the game that can potentially fulfill several Support roles by changing Traits.  Chrono is an example of Anet trying to give one eSpec access to either Alac or Quick, and I think it's an interesting starting point for other Support focused eSpecs to grow from.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

The issue I have with this is eSpecs can play very differently and I don't necessarily see the difference between asking someone to change Professions or eSpecs.  Like, Chrono DPS and Chrono Support are similar to each other but, totally different when compared to Virtuoso DPS and Mirage DPS and Support.  Saying that, I do not support giving all Professions/eSpecs equal access to Boon/Support roles.

I believe it would be healthier for the game and its players to have a handful of eSpecs that are focused on support rather than trying to make it fit everyone across the board.  Like if I want to choose a Support or Heal role, I should choose the profession and eSpec that can do that, not expect to modify what I am already playing (I look at Ranger and Druid as an example of this.  Druid is obviously intended to be Support first DPS second).

If the idea was to give all professions and eSpecs equal access I would suggest each Profession have a Core Trait Tree revamped to include all Support.  Imagine having the GM traits in this tree being "Provide Stab" - "Provide Alacrity" - "Provide Quick" in some form, and if your squad needs you to fulfill that role, you take the appropriate trait, nerf your DPS a little but presto, you're doing the thing.

I also feel that Boons and Support in this game are in an odd place.  There is no reward for being good at fulfilling a support role.  Like being good at giving Alacrity or Healing doesn't really change the way you play, you are still stacked up pressing buttons on CD, maybe waiting to pop that CC Skill or Stun Breaker.  In other games choosing to fulfill a support role came with unique challenges and rewards for being good at it.

It's coming from those games that makes me look at eSpecs like the Druid and think, we need more Support first eSpecs in the game that can potentially fulfill several Support roles by changing Traits.  Chrono is an example of Anet trying to give one eSpec access to either Alac or Quick, and I think it's an interesting starting point for other Support focused eSpecs to grow from.

see, i actually like this idea and totally agree, boons should buff you, but not so much to people have to fully rely on a specific class because its the only or one of the only options to take just to bleed through end game content. people want their dailies, want their clears and be done, then theres the rest of the game they can have fun with. the challenge seems non existant once you get into learning the machanics and cheesing bosses n such with boons alone. Boons are a crutch but i was only suggesting a potential easy introduction to allowing people to play any class they want and still be useful, no matter the group or content. right now specter cant do anything other than alacrity or condi and rarely power, then we go back to daredevil which is basically the same except alacrity. guardian is still anets favorite whether they want to admit it or not and elementalist keeps getting cut over and over...chrono...chronos out there suffer a lot. why cant we just enjoy the game with friends now with the boons we need

[Cuks.8241]

19 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You don't need to min-max for this, true. What you're missing is that boons are not just a case of min-maxing. They increase your damage to such a massive degree that there's just no option to go without them.

When i say "to a massive degree" i don't mean just +20% or even +50%. I mean as much as tripling your damage. So, someone doing a respectable 21k on boss, without boons might end up doing somewhere around 7k. What is worse, lack of boons doesn't just nerf damage from one player, but from the whole (sub)squad.

That is why raid group composition is dictated by boons. And why, as long as boons will keep being such a massive force multiplier, they will always remain primary concern.

I agree, boons have just too much role in overall performance. The first post is a bit incoherent but as far as I understood the author doesnt like to be pigeonholed into specific profession. While some professions are still better than the others, Anet has greatly expanded boon accessibility. Might and fury are pretty much a given now. And we have a lot of quick and alac sources right now and many dps builds have some personal uptime also, especially on quickness.

Unless we are talking the latest Strike CMs, most fights have very large room for error. So even if your uptime is not the best you should be fine.

I think Anet missed a good chance with Eod. They could nerf quickness and alacrity efficacy before Eod and balance new bosses with that in mind. Old fights would be just fine. And still expand boon accessibility. I would go even farther and make alac and quick 10 man by default in pve and make them a domain of healing supports. This would make group building much easier. But its to late now, they went with this direction, its better then it was.

[Zaret.1450]

On 10/6/2022 at 8:04 PM, Cuks.8241 said:

Having raid group composition dictated by buff/boon coverage is bad. Blizzard found that out somewhere after Woltk if I remember correctly, when the great stat and buff homogenisation took place (I might have missed an expansion).

On the other hand its mostly just in player's minds that all these compositions are required at all in this game. We dont have some hard raiding here. I did a W1 training run not long a go. When tank asked about toughness at the start, a few of the dps had quite decent toughness and our ele dps had so much toughness, the tank had a problem getting all that toughness together 🙂 We 1 shot VG, Gorseval we failed once so people got a grasp on the immobilising spirit mechanics and Sabetha took a few tries so all players grasped the cannon mechanic. You dont need to min max for this.

Its not that you realy "need" mix maxing, but think about it this way, your tank probably had to adjust his thoughness so no matther how much others had, hed be the one tanking, because a boss turning each time you weapon swap or your alies do something usually tends to panic, you also dont need to overheal, you can have people do greens, or in gorse you can do mecanic and not phase it, but in the end it is simpler and usually easier to have 2 guys overhealing and just care about blues, the same way its easier to just phase gorse and dont risk fliing.

With builds its similar, looking at a page and seeing "ah i just have to go full viper, this runes and this rota" its easier than going however you can, i mean that if you want to min max you can with the same build, if not doesnt matter but youll prob find more troubles