Adrenaline and leveled burst is failed mechanic

[Lighter.5631]

1.Adrenaline is a failed mechanic

If you simply remove adrenaline and make warrior use burst skills off cooldown, like all other classes are able to do.
it will have minimum impact to current warrior performance.

For years, warrior has been hard locked into taking adrenaline traits to function, while other classes are more free to theory craft
Anet does realize this, after years of updates, 
now we have:
       2 traits that give adrenaline on crit, 
       full rage skills give adrenaline,
       2 heal skills that give 30 adrenaline,
       2 elite skills that give adrenaline,
       adrenaline on CC,
       adrenaline on immobilize,
       adrenaline on weapon swap,
       2 non-rage utility skills that give adrenaline,
       adrenaline on block,
       adrenaline when take hit,
       adrenaline restore when use burst skills
       etc.

Added this many adrenaline skills/traits through out the years! Only to support warrior's base functionality for different builds.
While other classes build for extra functionalities, warrior build for base functionality to function, with all these adrenaline added to traits.
And adrenaline is very limiting, 
do you think berserker stance would still be 40 seconds CD without the adrenaline?
What signet of rage passive would be, if it's not adrenaline?
They had to add 2! extra adrenaline per crit on axe mastery only so people can use decapitate as designed.
You will never ever see this many energy regen skills/traits on any of the other classes, even with energy based classes like thief/revenant, even when warrior is only burst skills.
Which is why they resulted with 10 energy based level 1 burst skill for berserker and spellbreaker, it's more consistant and stable to balance.

 

 

2. Leveled burst skills is a failed mechanic.

Kill shot for example, it does an average of 1350 tool tip damage with berserker amulet, in 2022, which skills does 1350 damage with 1 1/4 second cast time and self root? 
but with level 3 being 1941, which is explainable with the cast time and every thing.

 

Then we look at greatsword, If we reduce greatsword damage base on level, which is 70% for level 1(1182 tool tip damage below 50% HP), would greatsword still be good?
Because greatsword burst is balanced around level 1, the only thing scaling is the fury up time, which is already very long at level 1 being 8 seconds matching burst skill cooldown.

 

a good way to balance burst skill, is to balance around level 1 burst skills, for example:
Mace burst will always stun for 3 seconds from level 1 to level 3, but applies 3/6/9 stack of vulnerability
Kill shot will always deal 1941 tool tip damage, but applies 2/3/4 seconds of quickness.
etc.

prime function should be fixed, while side function can be buffed
would make it more stable to balance
and actually usable for spellbreaker, like greatsword is.
( what in the world would want to deal 1350 damage with 1 1/4 second cast time and self root or 1 second of single target stun with 1/2 cast time and 130 range? LOL)

another interesting way for core warrior is to make all core skills level 1 only just like spellbreaker ( again for consistence and good balance )
but (core and berserker) will still have 30 adrenaline, so you basically have 3 charges of burst skill, you can burst, weapon swap, burst again right away, without the need to heavily invest into adrenaline. which would apply to berserker as well since berserker got core burst back.

       
       

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Did you happen to read my thread a while back about turning Burst skills into Ammo skills that consume all charges like Dragon's Roar? I think it addresses your first point.

To your second point, yeah at this point they need to go over the bursts skills and re evaluate their power levels. I think that you are right that the Main function needs to be static, but the side function needs to be what scales, like Arcing Slice.

[Lighter.5631]

14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Did you happen to read my thread a while back about turning Burst skills into Ammo skills that consume all charges like Dragon's Roar? I think it addresses your first point.
 

What do you mean by that, burst skill now already consumes all adrenaline?

 

personally, my suggestion of making burst skill main function static is to fix leveled burst skill being very inconsistent and bad for certain levels (second point)

 

and the first point(adrenaline is failed mechanic) my suggestion would be standardize adrenaline consumption, basically making all burst skill (core and berserker) only consume one bar(10) adrenaline per burst skill, like spellbreaker is. ( combining with the suggestion above of course)

 

i would prioritize making burst skill main function static first, with side effect being scalable.

then i would think if standardizing adrenaline consumption would be necessary. 

since by standardizing adrenaline consumption, would remove the side effect being scalable part.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Lighter.5631 said:

What do you mean by that, burst skill now already consumes all adrenaline?

I mean you start with 3 ammo instead of adrenaline as ammo skills. You consume all ammo on use, and they recharge one at a time until you have 3 ammo after 8s. Primal Bursts, Spellbreaker F1 and F2 would all count as 1 ammo. Traits and skills that grant adrenaline would instead grant X amount of ammo on whatever relevant CDs.

This would let you open up with the strongest tier Burst rather than having to wait, and you wouldn't have to build adrenaline ever as it would innately recharge, but could speed it up with certain traits and skills.

I forget what I suggested for BSW in that thread, but if I recall it was to get rid of flow altogether and just charge the bullets in DT whenever you enter, with no cost to enter. Traits and Skills that grant ammo to burst skills would instead grant the DT bullets, and bullets would not decay once charged. I would still force the BSW to charge up the bullets/blow CDs and start with 0 bullets charged.

Just now, Lighter.5631 said:

personally, my suggestion of making burst skill main function static is to fix leveled burst skill being very inconsistent and bad for certain levels (second point)

 

and the first point(adrenaline is failed mechanic) my suggestion would be standardize adrenaline consumption, basically making all burst skill (core and berserker) only consume one bar(10) adrenaline per burst skill, like spellbreaker is. ( combining with the suggestion above of course)

 

i would prioritize making burst skill main function static first, with side effect being scalable.

then i would think if standardizing adrenaline consumption would be necessary. 

My suggestion was to just get rid of the mechanic entirely and just have them all as ammo skills that had base recharge rates. Adrenaline is a failed mechanic, so just get rid of it and replace it with something more modern. Anet seems to like giving warrior ammo skills anyway right?
 

Too much, too little? I don't know for certain, but I think it is worth considering.

[Lighter.5631]

17 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I mean you start with 3 ammo instead of adrenaline as ammo skills. You consume all ammo on use, and they recharge one at a time until you have 3 ammo after 8s. Primal Bursts, Spellbreaker F1 and F2 would all count as 1 ammo. Traits and skills that grant adrenaline would instead grant X amount of ammo on whatever relevant CDs.

This would let you open up with the strongest tier Burst rather than having to wait, and you wouldn't have to build adrenaline ever as it would innately recharge, but could speed it up with certain traits and skills.

I forget what I suggested for BSW in that thread, but if I recall it was to get rid of flow altogether and just charge the bullets in DT whenever you enter, with no cost to enter. Traits and Skills that grant ammo to burst skills would instead grant the DT bullets, and bullets would not decay once charged. I would still force the BSW to charge up the bullets/blow CDs and start with 0 bullets charged.

My suggestion was to just get rid of the mechanic entirely and just have them all as ammo skills that had base recharge rates. Adrenaline is a failed mechanic, so just get rid of it and replace it with something more modern. Anet seems to like giving warrior ammo skills anyway right?
 

Too much, too little? I don't know for certain, but I think it is worth considering.

 

Changing adrenaline would mean rework of all adrenaline effect from traits, skills and every thing, not doable.

which is also why i hesitate with standardizing adrenaline consumption.

and making it being ammo that get consumed all at once really has minimum difference with how currently adrenaline already works. if you want to start with strongest burst, just ask for reset adrenaline to 30 when off combat, that would exactly be the same thing.

making it ammo is too much work for little differences.

 

the prioritization should really be standardizing burst skill main effectiveness through out different levels, would definitely help all warriors (excluding bladesworn), since scalable main function would only means that skill being too weak at low level or being too strong at high level. side effect like boons and conditions or cooldown resets etc can be a very good bonus that scales and improves warrior capability without overloading/overnerfing on a single damage or a single CC duration

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

26 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

 

Changing adrenaline would mean rework of all adrenaline effect from traits, skills and every thing, not doable.

which is also why i hesitate with standardizing adrenaline consumption.

and making it being ammo that get consumed all at once really has minimum difference with how currently adrenaline already works. if you want to start with strongest burst, just ask for reset adrenaline to 30 when off combat, that would exactly be the same thing.

making it ammo is too much work for little differences.

True. An even easier change would be to just not let adrenaline decay tbh.

26 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

the prioritization should really be standardizing burst skill main effectiveness through out different levels, would definitely help all warriors (excluding bladesworn), since scalable main function would only means that skill being too weak at low level or being too strong at high level. side effect like boons and conditions or cooldown resets etc can be a very good bonus that scales and improves warrior capability without overloading/overnerfing on a single damage or a single CC duration

Yeah. Lets pull that thread then.

What should the base T1 of Killshot do and what should it's side function be?

It has no side function currently so set that to the side for the moment.

Should the base T1 have the damage as the current T1, T2, T3, or something different? If we have to add a secondary function to it then pegging the damage at the current T2 or a little stronger sounds about correct right? What would be a fitting secondary effect? Not Vuln, cripple, or immob as rifle has that. Weakness? Can get that with a trait now. I'm actually struggling to come up with a good and fitting secondary that isn't already covered by a trait that fits with rifle:

• Vuln
• Might
• Fury
• Weakness
• Quickness

A daze that scales with Adrenaline level might work, makes it a slightly more powerful version of Gunflame, but with a longer cast time and self root.

I focused on Kill Shot simply because it is the only core burst without a real secondary function. Things like Eviscerate should have the base T3 damage and scaling might stacks. Flurry should have the T3 bleed and number of strikes but a scaling immob duration. Those are easy. 

 

[thaniretouni.4762]

axe main hand has decent flow. so every time u use the axe burst u enter the "zone" for 5 seconds and this gains u 10% attack speed and which can stack up to three times and stacks with quickness. this way u can make even mace (assuming some dmg boost) playable. rifle could give u 2 seconds of unblockable attacks so u root then f1 then 2 and three or swap to another weapon if the enemy blinks on u and this way u penetrate aegis etc. or in zerg f1 on someone then hammer f1 to stun a few people with less chances for a pointless earthshaker. this is just an idea. there can be many solutions. like increased crit dmg, superspeed to catch up since u were rooted for the rifle f1 etc

[jaif.3518]

Adrenaline should provide a benefit, like a heal tick, or quickness (or sonething).  Then spending it for a burst would be an interesting decision. 

 

After that, balance the power of the burst vs price in adrenaline. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I agree with balancing burst damage around T1 and having a scaling secondary effect.

 

The biggest issue with the current system, as you rightly pointed out, is the difficulty of adrenaline gain. Imo, adrenaline should accrue passively once in combat (like flow does), probably at a base rate of 2 ticks every 3s like Sig of rage currently does. This would smooth out Warrior's playstyle significantly.

 

An added bonus to something like this would be that it would help make Discipline less mandatory. In addition to Fast Hands and Warriors Sprint, the adrenaline gain on swap is one of the trait line's most important functions. If we ever want Discipline to be optional, we need to be able to get that steady adrenaline gain from somewhere else. 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

Truthfully I think one of the simplest solutions would be to have Burst skills be able to be cast with no Adrenaline and with T1 values/triggers with a cooldown, and then Have T1 have T2 values, T2 have T3 values and the new T3 has higher values. That is the simplest...

However, I do think an argument could be made instead for Warrior getting benefits as they accrue more and more Adrenaline. For instance, every time they max out one of the Tiers in the Adrenaline bar (T1, T2, T3) they trigger effects. Ideally this trigger is boons. Might, Fury, what have you. Inherently I think they should be offensive oriented boons, however they could add in traits that would add boons to these procs. So they could have a trait that adds Resolution to that list, another trait that adds Quickness, and so on and so forth.

This wouldn't even be the first time they have traits like this associated with activating a class mechanic. Elementalists, Engineers, Revenants, Guardians, the list goes on, all have traits that proc a boon or effect of some sort when they activate a kit, an attunement, a legend, a virtue, etc. Warrior does have this with its burst skills already, however the chief difference is that these effects we can trigger all require a target to be hit. Adrenal Health; have to hit, Cleansing Ire; have to hit, Berserker's Power; have to hit. Magebane Tether; have to hit. We do also typically get boons from landing things like Arcing Slice or Eviscerate, but again...have to actually hit them. The issue is always going to circle around to that stipulation and that stipulation is a particular "issue" due in large part to how telegraphed these skills are. It also means that almost any utility the Warrior can provide to itself with its class mechanic gets heavily countered by literally any effect that "negates power damage"; so aegis, invulns, blinds, blocks, dodges, evades. All of these things, which there is a lot of this stuff now, just completely hinders Warriors ability to even use its own class mechanic.

Note the above classes don't have to hit for these traits I'm talking about. They just need to trigger them and they get the benefits;
Elementalist: When swapping attunements get X boon/effect or When attuning to X element get X boon/effect
Engineer: Get X boon when using a toolbelt skill or Get X boon when equipping a kit
Revenant: Get X boon when invoking a legend or do X when invoking a legend or Get X boon/effect when using a skill that uses energy
Guardian: Gain X when you activate a virtue or The active effect of Virtue X gains X effect and grants X boon

Again I could keep going, because its basically every class that has this and practically none of them are so gated behind the stipulation of needing to actually hit anything to trigger these effects. Not that they have none, but thats all Warriors are. When hitting with, when landing, etc.

[Kanek.5472]

Adrenaline isn't a failed mechanic, it's just underutilized.

 

I think taking more of a fighting-game type of approach with Adrenaline would be more ideal. Give each weapon their own little level 1-2 supers with an ultimate that's on significantly longer cooldown.

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

However, I do think an argument could be made instead for Warrior getting benefits as they accrue more and more Adrenaline. For instance, every time they max out one of the Tiers in the Adrenaline bar (T1, T2, T3) they trigger effects. Ideally this trigger is boons. Might, Fury, what have you.

This is something I’ve mentioned in the past. It encourages a balance of spending adrenaline and gaining it, with two way benefits (you have to spend adrenaline to be able to fill new bars, so it doesn’t encourage adrenaline hoarding). It would give further interaction with utilities, such as berserker’s stance, which rapidly fill adrenaline. 
 

To me, it seems like a no brainer way to build more modernization into warrior while maintaining and reinforcing the current warrior gameplay style. This could be built into a variety of the core trait lines that need reworks, such as arms for a more offensive/critical strike focus, discipline or tactics. 
 

As Kanek said, adrenaline isn’t a failed mechanic. It’s an underutilized mechanic, and, in my opinion, it already has the functions necessary to be modernized. Turning burst skills into ammos, being cooldown only, etc. actually will limit the potential for expansion upon warriors class mechanic. Just my opinion though

[Lighter.5631]

1 hour ago, Kanek.5472 said:

Adrenaline isn't a failed mechanic, it's just underutilized.

 

I think taking more of a fighting-game type of approach with Adrenaline would be more ideal. Give each weapon their own little level 1-2 supers with an ultimate that's on significantly longer cooldown.

Yea, what i mean't is adrenaline combined with current burst system is a failed mechanic.

which is why personally, would standardize burst out put with side bonuses being scalable first, instead of having completely under powered level1-2 bursts.

then we can consider if whether a change of adrenaline is needed.

 

having level 1-2 being different then level 3 would work too, as long as it is worth using, same goal as standardizing bursts.

just too much work for the devs, which will most likely be unrealistic for anet and hard to balance, as spellbreaker only uses level 1.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Truthfully I think one of the simplest solutions would be to have Burst skills be able to be cast with no Adrenaline and with T1 values/triggers with a cooldown, and then Have T1 have T2 values, T2 have T3 values and the new T3 has higher values. That is the simplest...

However, I do think an argument could be made instead for Warrior getting benefits as they accrue more and more Adrenaline. For instance, every time they max out one of the Tiers in the Adrenaline bar (T1, T2, T3) they trigger effects. Ideally this trigger is boons. Might, Fury, what have you. Inherently I think they should be offensive oriented boons, however they could add in traits that would add boons to these procs. So they could have a trait that adds Resolution to that list, another trait that adds Quickness, and so on and so forth.

This wouldn't even be the first time they have traits like this associated with activating a class mechanic. Elementalists, Engineers, Revenants, Guardians, the list goes on, all have traits that proc a boon or effect of some sort when they activate a kit, an attunement, a legend, a virtue, etc. Warrior does have this with its burst skills already, however the chief difference is that these effects we can trigger all require a target to be hit. Adrenal Health; have to hit, Cleansing Ire; have to hit, Berserker's Power; have to hit. Magebane Tether; have to hit. We do also typically get boons from landing things like Arcing Slice or Eviscerate, but again...have to actually hit them. The issue is always going to circle around to that stipulation and that stipulation is a particular "issue" due in large part to how telegraphed these skills are. It also means that almost any utility the Warrior can provide to itself with its class mechanic gets heavily countered by literally any effect that "negates power damage"; so aegis, invulns, blinds, blocks, dodges, evades. All of these things, which there is a lot of this stuff now, just completely hinders Warriors ability to even use its own class mechanic.

Note the above classes don't have to hit for these traits I'm talking about. They just need to trigger them and they get the benefits;
Elementalist: When swapping attunements get X boon/effect or When attuning to X element get X boon/effect
Engineer: Get X boon when using a toolbelt skill or Get X boon when equipping a kit
Revenant: Get X boon when invoking a legend or do X when invoking a legend or Get X boon/effect when using a skill that uses energy
Guardian: Gain X when you activate a virtue or The active effect of Virtue X gains X effect and grants X boon

Again I could keep going, because its basically every class that has this and practically none of them are so gated behind the stipulation of needing to actually hit anything to trigger these effects. Not that they have none, but thats all Warriors are. When hitting with, when landing, etc.

I like this train of thought...

Gain 1 stack of Berserker's Power for 15s after filling a bar of adrenaline.

Cleanse 1 condi per bar of adrenaline gained.

Gain a stack of AH per bar of adrenaline gained.

Furious Bursts then grants 5s of Fury in an AoE pet bar of adrenaline gained.

Soldiers Comfort heals when gaining bars of adrenaline in an AoE, ICD or course.

Martial Cadence procs quickness in an AoE when gaining a bar of adrenaline.

Caveat: can't gain what you can't fill, so you'd have to spam your bursts anyway to keep getting the effects... And things like To The Limit would proc said traits multiple times before CDs kick in.

 

Hmmm.... Me like. Might need some balance polishing but I like this concept.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

27 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I like this train of thought...

Gain 1 stack of Berserker's Power for 15s after filling a bar of adrenaline.

Cleanse 1 condi per bar of adrenaline gained.

Gain a stack of AH per bar of adrenaline gained.

Furious Bursts then grants 5s of Fury in an AoE pet bar of adrenaline gained.

Soldiers Comfort heals when gaining bars of adrenaline in an AoE, ICD or course.

Martial Cadence procs quickness in an AoE when gaining a bar of adrenaline.

Caveat: can't gain what you can't fill, so you'd have to spam your bursts anyway to keep getting the effects... And things like To The Limit would proc said traits multiple times before CDs kick in.

 

Hmmm.... Me like. Might need some balance polishing but I like this concept.

It also leans more into if they push Tactics to be the support traitline. It can keep its Might generation, this particular change to Adrenaline would augment that but they would need to make it so that it doesn't exacerbate the self sustain it is capable of because that would just create another unhealthy gimmick in competitive modes that Warrior would end up relying on.

But yes, precisely, the idea would be that it incentivizes building Adrenaline and spending it because this proc is not a pulsing effect, it is one time per when you gain that bar of Adrenaline. It also doesn't make us solely rely on hitting with our Burst skills, it incentivizes being aggressive and getting a payoff for it. However Burst skills would still need to be worth using and hitting with otherwise it just turns them into abilities you pop just to drain your Adrenaline. Basically this means that Burst skills need to be equally as rewarding to actually land a hit with.

This would legitimately just put our actual class mechanic in line with basically every other freakin' class mechanic in the game.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

It also leans more into if they push Tactics to be the support traitline. It can keep its Might generation, this particular change to Adrenaline would augment that but they would need to make it so that it doesn't exacerbate the self sustain it is capable of because that would just create another unhealthy gimmick in competitive modes that Warrior would end up relying on.

But yes, precisely, the idea would be that it incentivizes building Adrenaline and spending it because this proc is not a pulsing effect, it is one time per when you gain that bar of Adrenaline. It also doesn't make us solely rely on hitting with our Burst skills, it incentivizes being aggressive and getting a payoff for it. However Burst skills would still need to be worth using and hitting with otherwise it just turns them into abilities you pop just to drain your Adrenaline. Basically this means that Burst skills need to be equally as rewarding to actually land a hit with.

This would legitimately just put our actual class mechanic in line with basically every other freakin' class mechanic in the game.

Coefficient buffs and extra boons would do that trick just fine 

[Jzaku.9765]

9 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

1.Adrenaline is a failed mechanic

If you simply remove adrenaline and make warrior use burst skills off cooldown, like all other classes are able to do.
it will have minimum impact to current warrior performance.

For years, warrior has been hard locked into taking adrenaline traits to function, while other classes are more free to theory craft
Anet does realize this, after years of updates, 
now we have:
       2 traits that give adrenaline on crit, 
       full rage skills give adrenaline,
       2 heal skills that give 30 adrenaline,
       2 elite skills that give adrenaline,
       adrenaline on CC,
       adrenaline on immobilize,
       adrenaline on weapon swap,
       2 non-rage utility skills that give adrenaline,
       adrenaline on block,
       adrenaline when take hit,
       adrenaline restore when use burst skills
       etc.

Added this many adrenaline skills/traits through out the years! Only to support warrior's base functionality for different builds.
While other classes build for extra functionalities, warrior build for base functionality to function, with all these adrenaline added to traits.
And adrenaline is very limiting, 
do you think berserker stance would still be 40 seconds CD without the adrenaline?
What signet of rage passive would be, if it's not adrenaline?
They had to add 2! extra adrenaline per crit on axe mastery only so people can use decapitate as designed.
You will never ever see this many energy regen skills/traits on any of the other classes, even with energy based classes like thief/revenant, even when warrior is only burst skills.
Which is why they resulted with 10 energy based level 1 burst skill for berserker and spellbreaker, it's more consistant and stable to balance.

 

 

2. Leveled burst skills is a failed mechanic.

Kill shot for example, it does an average of 1350 tool tip damage with berserker amulet, in 2022, which skills does 1350 damage with 1 1/4 second cast time and self root? 
but with level 3 being 1941, which is explainable with the cast time and every thing.

 

Then we look at greatsword, If we reduce greatsword damage base on level, which is 70% for level 1(1182 tool tip damage below 50% HP), would greatsword still be good?
Because greatsword burst is balanced around level 1, the only thing scaling is the fury up time, which is already very long at level 1 being 8 seconds matching burst skill cooldown.

 

a good way to balance burst skill, is to balance around level 1 burst skills, for example:
Mace burst will always stun for 3 seconds from level 1 to level 3, but applies 3/6/9 stack of vulnerability
Kill shot will always deal 1941 tool tip damage, but applies 2/3/4 seconds of quickness.
etc.

prime function should be fixed, while side function can be buffed
would make it more stable to balance
and actually usable for spellbreaker, like greatsword is.
( what in the world would want to deal 1350 damage with 1 1/4 second cast time and self root or 1 second of single target stun with 1/2 cast time and 130 range? LOL)

another interesting way for core warrior is to make all core skills level 1 only just like spellbreaker ( again for consistence and good balance )
but (core and berserker) will still have 30 adrenaline, so you basically have 3 charges of burst skill, you can burst, weapon swap, burst again right away, without the need to heavily invest into adrenaline. which would apply to berserker as well since berserker got core burst back.

       
       

I agree with your general premise but I think that the problem is nowhere near as severe as you make it out to be. 

Leveled Burst is a failed mechanic because Leveled Bursts have not been relevant for almost 7 years since Core Warrior is largely irrelevant compared to it's Elite Specs (who all don't use leveled bursts, even Berserker would rather be raging) and has received no real focused development. You would say the exact same thing about T1 bursts if Spellbreaker didn't exist making them relook at every T1 burst and buff them to all be usable for Spb. There's another thread up right now literally about this.

As for being forced to build for Adrenaline being an opportunity cost - Strongly agree. My suggestion was to simply have every traitline's first minor trait additionally also have an effect that grants 5 Adrenaline when you do X, thematic to the traitline, exactly like [Versatile Rage] in Discipline. 

It's been a while, so I'll just spitball some updates to the suggestion in the thread:

• Strength - Gain 5 Adrenaline when you grant a total of 10 Might to allies. (Has a counter that ticks up)
•  Arms - Gain 5 Adrenaline whenever you apply Fury to yourself.
• Defense - Gain 5 Adrenaline on disabling a foe. (Merciless Hammer now does something else)
• Tactics - Gain 5 Adrenaline when you apply Vigor to allies. 
• Discipline - Already has this, it's 5 Adrenaline when you swap weapons. 

[eXruina.4956]

its not failed, just.. outdated 🤣

[oscuro.9720]

On 10/10/2022 at 3:07 PM, Lighter.5631 said:

Yea, what i mean't is adrenaline combined with current burst system is a failed mechanic.

which is why personally, would standardize burst out put with side bonuses being scalable first, instead of having completely under powered level1-2 bursts.

then we can consider if whether a change of adrenaline is needed.

 

having level 1-2 being different then level 3 would work too, as long as it is worth using, same goal as standardizing bursts.

just too much work for the devs, which will most likely be unrealistic for anet and hard to balance, as spellbreaker only uses level 1.

This is already how burst skills function though. For example, arcing slice tier 1 is the same damage value as tier 3, only the fury duration scales. The only burst skills that have damage scaling are Eviscerate and Kill Shot. Everything else have some non-damage component that scales with adrenaline. Or do you mean giving other outputs aside from those?

 

im dumb Lighter wasn’t quoting me. Just ignore this comment.

Edited October 11, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Lighter.5631]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

This is already how burst skills function though. For example, arcing slice tier 1 is the same damage value as tier 3, only the fury duration scales. The only burst skills that have damage scaling are Eviscerate and Kill Shot. Everything else have some non-damage component that scales with adrenaline. Or do you mean giving other outputs aside from those?

The reply was to some one who suggested to have t1 t2 being completely different function to t3. i just tried to explain it is not practical that way

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, Lighter.5631 said:

The reply was to some one who suggested to have t1 t2 being completely different function to t3. i just tried to explain it is not practical that way

Wow I’m dumb and for some reason thought you had quoted me. Sorry about that, please just ignore the comment, lol. 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:19 PM, Jzaku.9765 said:

I agree with your general premise but I think that the problem is nowhere near as severe as you make it out to be. 

Leveled Burst is a failed mechanic because Leveled Bursts have not been relevant for almost 7 years since Core Warrior is largely irrelevant compared to it's Elite Specs (who all don't use leveled bursts, even Berserker would rather be raging) and has received no real focused development. You would say the exact same thing about T1 bursts if Spellbreaker didn't exist making them relook at every T1 burst and buff them to all be usable for Spb. There's another thread up right now literally about this.

As for being forced to build for Adrenaline being an opportunity cost - Strongly agree. My suggestion was to simply have every traitline's first minor trait additionally also have an effect that grants 5 Adrenaline when you do X, thematic to the traitline, exactly like [Versatile Rage] in Discipline. 

It's been a while, so I'll just spitball some updates to the suggestion in the thread:

• Strength - Gain 5 Adrenaline when you grant a total of 10 Might to allies. (Has a counter that ticks up)
•  Arms - Gain 5 Adrenaline whenever you apply Fury to yourself.
• Defense - Gain 5 Adrenaline on disabling a foe. (Merciless Hammer now does something else)
• Tactics - Gain 5 Adrenaline when you apply Vigor to allies. 
• Discipline - Already has this, it's 5 Adrenaline when you swap weapons. 

Maybe more Adrenaline gain, paired with making each Tier of Adrenaline proc buffs/boons, whatever, and associate traits with this as well.

Warrior's gameplay should incentivize being...a Warrior. A bruiser. Being aggressive. The stipulation of requiring Burst skills to land to proc effects, on paper, does facilitate this, but with how telegraphed they are it has become far less about being aggressive and landing those hits and more about need to bait your enemies into being hit by them. Which is a lot of uphill battling when most of your focus is on that while other classes don't need to climb nearly that many hurdles to get the same, and usually much better, payoff.

Warrior's chief issues I think in all of this is its class mechanic feeling outdated and not having kept up with the game changing, as well as its lack of boon generation and uptime in competitive modes. They did seem to want to keep pushing this "less magic" thing with Warrior but it hasn't been paying off that well because that has weirdly translated into less boons. Even in GW1 you typically supplemented any Warrior build with a more magic oriented class. War/Mo, War/Rit, War/Assassin, War/Ele, War/Para, War/Derv.