PVE Shadow Arts

[Animism.7530]

Just went onto my Thief after a bit of a hiatus, to find out about the Shadow Arts nerfs and Stealth being pummelled into the ground. 

Must you persist in destroying every unique thing you created in this game to replace it with this homogenised sense of gameplay? 
You could have removed it from PvP, as naturally that is the obvious issue, instead of butchering all of its style completely. 

Who could possibly have supported this as a change in PvE and why? 

[ASP.8093]

When are you running Shadow Arts in PvE?

[Animism.7530]

10 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

When are you running Shadow Arts in PvE?

Uhhh when I wanted to run with full stealth which has now been removed? 

Was that really a difficult answer to figure out or do you just like inane questioning? 

[Bern.9613]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:30 PM, ASP.8093 said:

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bern.9613

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, Animism.7530 said:

Uhhh when I wanted to run with full stealth which has now been removed? 

Was that really a difficult answer to figure out or do you just like inane questioning? 

Because it matters whether you're trying to do dungeon skips, or looking at Shadow Arts as a defensive toolkit for fighting hard enemies, or just dithering around, or whatever.

About two months ago there was a thread where the guy making this kind of complaint just wanted 100% stealth uptime it for *harvesting nodes* and also he was allergic to smoke fields for some reason. That's very different from, say, "hey, how do I speedrun Caduceus Manor with the Shadow Arts changes" or whatever.

[Animism.7530]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Because it matters whether you're trying to do dungeon skips, or looking at Shadow Arts as a defensive toolkit for fighting hard enemies, or just dithering around, or whatever.

About two months ago there was a thread where the guy making this kind of complaint just wanted 100% stealth uptime it for *harvesting nodes* and also he was allergic to smoke fields for some reason. That's very different from, say, "hey, how do I speedrun Caduceus Manor with the Shadow Arts changes" or whatever.

What does it matter if it's one or the other? Please elaborate if you think it makes a difference, though it clearly doesn't. 

"Allergic to smoke fields", is that an attempt to deliberately undermine and evade the fact smoke field stealth stacking is far worse than it was before? Even to the degree that it is now pointless and won't save you any time? Right... Ok...? So far I consider both your comments inane questioning with no purpose but to try undermine. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Animism.7530

[ASP.8093]

The old Meld With Shadows never, ever affected stealth duration from combo fields. 😎

[Bern.9613]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:33 AM, ASP.8093 said:

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bern.9613

[Emolesbian.3170]

Smoke Field

 

You find it at the bottom of the page. And I guess it means the page needs an update (?).

[Animism.7530]

3 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

The old Meld With Shadows never, ever affected stealth duration from combo fields. 😎

Stop trying to derail conversation with random tangents that no one was talking about. 

Thanks... 

If you want an intelligent answer, it's an addition to maintain perma stealth. Though surely, someone clearly looking for "gotcha" moments doesn't care to actually have a conversation. 

[ASP.8093]

You can still chain tons of stealth with Deadeye in PvE, because the baseline stealth durations on Silent Scope and most of your skills are longer than they are in SPvP/WvW. 3 seconds per dodge, 3 seconds per smoke field finisher. Shadow Meld, Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder (use it with a smoke field for best value), and Signet of Agility (more dodges) also help. I don't recommend Shadow Refuge unless you need to stick in one place for a while, it's kinda counterproductive if you're trying to optimize for running around. Save at least one charge of Shadow Meld in case you mess up with your leaps/blasts and get Revealed.

You may find that the current version of Shadow Arts isn't very useful if you're just chaining stealth for long duration instead of ducking in and out of stealth to trigger the traits.

EDIT: Here, try this. Just fill in the gaps with whatever you want. This is sufficient to upkeep stealth permanently in PvE, with some room for error. Max out finishers during Smoke Screen. You can probably get away with Shortbow instead of D/P if you want (Kneel->Cover->swap weapons->blast blast blast), just gotta be careful blasting; I prefer Dagger/Pistol combo easy mode tho. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQhrlFgByuYm4C4RA-e

Edited October 13, 2022 by ASP.8093
smoke combo = 3 seconds

[Emolesbian.3170]

Permanent stealth is not viable anymore as the new SA traitline revolves around entering and exiting stealth and not remaining like before.

 

But a build based on quantity rather than duration is on top to get the best out of the new SA.

I'm personally not fan of it as it's clearly best suited to rifle and silent scope. But it's effective whatsoever. In PvE like PvP.

 

You won't hit the top of the charts with it but it's decent and kinda funny somehow.

[Bern.9613]

On 10/13/2022 at 4:31 AM, Emolesbian.3170 said:

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bern.9613

[ASP.8093]

Do not use Shadow Arts for perma-stealth in PvE! You do not NEED Shadow Arts for perma-stealth in PvE. True perpetual perma-stealth is there if you want it, and you can do it easily with just a standard Crit Strikes Rifle open-world build. Don't even have to take Shadow Refuge or anything super trashy like that.

(And, one more time: if you were used to using Smoke as your main stealth source, the amount of stealth you get from comboing hasn't changed! It's only Silent Scope and Stealth from thief skills that are affected by the Meld With Shadows changes.)

 

4 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

Unfortunately deadeye in pvp/wvw, is dead.

SPvP: This is the first time we've seen Deadeyes in top-tier Monthly Automated Tournament teams in… uhhh, years? The faster Initiative gain built into new SA is hugely beneficial to SPvP Deadeye builds because you can put out a lot more burst or damage pressure. Even the horrible Specter nerf is probably good for Deadeye, metagame-wise, right now.

WvW: Look, everyone has their own playstyle preferences. If you hate the more aggressive in-and-out approach that the designers are favoring, that's fine. But people still roam on Deadeye, they still kill other roamers and small groups on Deadeye, &c. &c. I, personally, haven't had any trouble adapting. New SA is great if you're fighting Condi/Cele builds on Deadeye, you can shake off a lot of conditions very quickly and the extra initiative does actually help you avoid running dry against builds that spam lots of short invulns and blocks; you can practically farm Cele Harbingers. In my experience, Rifle SA also works fine for aggressive engagement against other bursty power builds, because I can usually get an extra Death's Retreat in somewhere to save my bacon against builds with lots of gap closers. Rifle Deadeye is absolutely still a top-notch roaming build.

P.S. If you need more tools for getting away when a "havoc group" tries to 10v1 you with superspeed and mounts now that it's harder to just stack stealth in WvW, just juke 'em with Shadow Portal.

(Aristocracy P/P Daredevil works great, too! Great example of how new Shadow Arts is still very powerful and exploitable!)

Edited October 13, 2022 by ASP.8093

[Bern.9613]

On 10/13/2022 at 11:19 AM, ASP.8093 said:

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bern.9613

[Mincsk.6028]

19 minutes ago, Bern.9613 said:

This was Nov 2020 using SA, trick and be quick or be dead. This was my playstyle. No perma stealth. I used stealth to reposition and confuse the enemy as to where I was.

Some may have already seen this on other threads.

Yup. RIP my beautiful unique play style you are missed.

[Animism.7530]

22 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

Do not use Shadow Arts for perma-stealth in PvE! You do not NEED Shadow Arts for perma-stealth in PvE. True perpetual perma-stealth is there if you want it, and you can do it easily with just a standard Crit Strikes Rifle open-world build. Don't even have to take Shadow Refuge or anything super trashy like that.

(And, one more time: if you were used to using Smoke as your main stealth source, the amount of stealth you get from comboing hasn't changed! It's only Silent Scope and Stealth from thief skills that are affected by the Meld With Shadows changes.)

 

SPvP: This is the first time we've seen Deadeyes in top-tier Monthly Automated Tournament teams in… uhhh, years? The faster Initiative gain built into new SA is hugely beneficial to SPvP Deadeye builds because you can put out a lot more burst or damage pressure. Even the horrible Specter nerf is probably good for Deadeye, metagame-wise, right now.

WvW: Look, everyone has their own playstyle preferences. If you hate the more aggressive in-and-out approach that the designers are favoring, that's fine. But people still roam on Deadeye, they still kill other roamers and small groups on Deadeye, &c. &c. I, personally, haven't had any trouble adapting. New SA is great if you're fighting Condi/Cele builds on Deadeye, you can shake off a lot of conditions very quickly and the extra initiative does actually help you avoid running dry against builds that spam lots of short invulns and blocks; you can practically farm Cele Harbingers. In my experience, Rifle SA also works fine for aggressive engagement against other bursty power builds, because I can usually get an extra Death's Retreat in somewhere to save my bacon against builds with lots of gap closers. Rifle Deadeye is absolutely still a top-notch roaming build.

P.S. If you need more tools for getting away when a "havoc group" tries to 10v1 you with superspeed and mounts now that it's harder to just stack stealth in WvW, just juke 'em with Shadow Portal.

(Aristocracy P/P Daredevil works great, too! Great example of how new Shadow Arts is still very powerful and exploitable!)

Your response to others' concerns over playstyles is to call it "super trashy" and writing "Do not use it". 

I'm not reading a block of text from someone who is just undermining people. 
You can make your own post instead of trying to derail others. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Animism.7530

[ASP.8093]

3 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

Your response to others' concerns over playstyles is to call it "super trashy" and writing "Do not use it". 

I'm not reading a block of text from someone who is just undermining people. 
You can make your own post instead of trying to derail others. 

I am waiting for literally anyone lamenting the cruel death of Meld With Shadows to acknowledge that you can still do perma-stealth in PvE. I just want to see one person say, "Yes, I am aware that you can still do perma-stealth in PvE. I have personally attempted it and it was not difficult."

[Animism.7530]

2 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

I am waiting for literally anyone lamenting the cruel death of Meld With Shadows to acknowledge that you can still do perma-stealth in PvE. I just want to see one person say, "Yes, I am aware that you can still do perma-stealth in PvE. I have personally attempted it and it was not difficult."

It's worse than it was - less convenient and versatile. Is that so hard to figure out or do you like using the same rhetoric over and over? 

This is a ridiculous conversation. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Animism.7530

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:09 AM, Bern.9613 said:

Unfortunately deadeye in pvp/wvw, is dead.

 

Lost virtually all credibility with that statement.  DE on the whole is having great success in sPvP because of the new SA changes letting it more or less instantly cap malice with initiative to spare and tons of kiting potential with what's almost near-constant superspeed.  Even I didn't see it as being as potent as it is, but power DE hasn't been this good in sPvP pretty much ever.

Truth is this:  People who played in a way where they needed to stack stealth as a prerequisite to reposition were just not as good as they think they were and were abusing an unfun and agency-stealing mechanic.

6 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

This was Nov 2020 using SA, trick and be quick or be dead. This was my playstyle. No perma stealth. I used stealth to reposition and confuse the enemy as to where I was.

Some may have already seen this on other threads.

Really bad example to set here.  In this video more than two thirds of your time spent in combat was in stealth.  I kept track.

Your "playstyle" consisted of running around in stealth until you had an opening safe while at range, then attacking while revealed to pump more damage, and repeating over and over again.  No weapon swaps, no combo field usage, no trading, no real aggression our huge outplay moments, no quick reflex stunbreaks to force something.  It was rotational, boring, and frankly, the sheer amount of times you got caught but bailed out by stealth and trait interactions of the old SA were too many to count.

 

As for the OP:

"less convenient and versatile" is pretty much the point of why these changes happened.  SA played itself and was a problem from its core design in the PvP formats, and extended stealth wasn't good for anything but content skips, which is a moot point to argue from a design perspective; if something is only good because it lets you not engage with the content itself, it rightfully should be removed because then there's no point in development resources even going into that content in the first place.  If that content is meant to be played by the designers, the skipping part has to be addressed.  And I'd rather see thief face losses there so it can be buffed at actually completing the content than say, just making the content unskippable and leaving the thief weak because this unhealthy play pattern is breaking the PvP/WvW modes.

You can state all day that the thief feels bad because it lacks compensation in its other trait lines to enable other styles of play due to the SA changes and I won't disagree with you.  But SA and its surrounding design was unhealthy for the game and should have been addressed a decade ago.  In fact, thieves like me were making posts a decade ago saying to make SA changes like the one they did just because if we let this play pattern persist the core profession will get nerfed over and over due to PvP/WvW balance problems, and we were correct.

[Loboling.5293]

8 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

This was Nov 2020 using SA, trick and be quick or be dead. This was my playstyle. No perma stealth. I used stealth to reposition and confuse the enemy as to where I was.

Some may have already seen this on other threads.

So what's changed? 1 less second of stealth on dodge, no stealth on heal or steal. You traded that off for more sustain, and more initiative generation. I think it's a preference thing. I do miss stealth on heal though, that seemed to flow so well into thiefs design. I'd advocate to bring that back, even if just 2 seconds. 

[Bern.9613]

23 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bern.9613

[Bern.9613]

22 hours ago, Loboling.5293 said:

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bern.9613

[kash.9213]

15 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

The ability to control the fight. The ability to cause confusion as to your location. Continual 50% speed buff. The continual heal while stealthed allowing for sustainability. The cd reduction on deception skills. The ability to stealth fluidly and for more then 1 sec. There was a time, when de first came into game, that we all used acro line then they nerf the crap out of that with 5 min cds. 

Not attacking your original position, I get that you worked on your system over time and you take crafting your build seriously. From another perspective, that aspect of gameplay felt like avoiding content to a lot of people in pve (I'm talking beyond just creative map travel, I like to mask my direction and all that also) and to people in other game modes, those points you describe up to the Heal might sound like dropping combat. Also, the trait line promoted that type of gameplay while denying the preferred and requested type of gameplay for a lot of other people, especially in regards to keeping up with people rather than continuously creating distance. 

I don't think this change entirely dismantles your system. You put thought into your approach and I think you'll find your new thresholds. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by kash.9213

[Stx.4857]

The new SA trait line is much better than the old in almost every way.  More initiative regen, more leech, more poison application.  The entire rework to make traits fire on stealth exit and stealth entry is just so much better than the previous 'every 3 seconds in stealth' function.  

 

I feel like people who dislike the new SA are pissed about very specific things being removed and specifically enjoyed sitting in stealth for long periods of time.  

 

As someone who enjoys soloing difficult pve content, the new SA is much more powerful.