Call to Anet: Abolish the matchmaking system and ranked pvp

[Eddbopkins.2630]

10 minutes ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

I can't so where are you planning on going to when you stop playing GW2? If you don't like this game's state but NEED the base mechanics you are indeed stuck. Compromises must be made I guess. If you don't like PvE and don't like PvP but need these base mechanics unique to GW2 then maybe you just stop playing games all together or make a business plan for a MOBA with GW2 core combat mechanics and ask Tencent for a $100 million loan to make the next great game. I don't think conquest moving to 4v4 would get rid of all of your problems, it just lowers complexity with less moving parts. 

You said this game is bad and you will stop playing it. I suggested what exists for you and you said but it's not GW2.

You didn't suggest anything. You just give your negative opinions about my feeling on this game currently.

 

For now I'm going to overwatch 2. Them going to 5v5 and adding in new game mode like robot push and new maps really invigorated that game. 

There are plenty of gw1 pvp game modes that worked well there I don't see why they can't be ported over to gw2 now

Edited October 25, 2022 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Mount Mazama.2917]

6 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

You didn't suggest anything. You just give your negative opinions about my feeling on this game currently.

 

For now I'm going to overwatch 2. Them going to 5v5 and adding in new game mode like robot push and new maps really invigorated that game. 

There are plenty of gw1 pvp game modes that worked well there I don't see why they can't be ported over to gw2 now

Saying you could look into something else when your post states 'im done with gw2 i guess." isn't me giving a negative opinion. It is literally a suggestion. I said I didn't believe lowering the player count is a healthy fix because it removes complexity. If you think it should be less complex and that makes the game better you can rebut. I never played GW1 PvP so I don't know how those game modes worked out, it could be really great and I do not know why they haven't ported them over. Potentially concerns of a fragmenting the already low playbase for PvPs.

I think what invigorated OW was the fact they actually put time into trying to improve it after leaving to dry out for 3 years, then they ran a big advertising campaign so every average person on twitch feels like they must try it out. That game will have problems again and going from 6v6 to 5v5 is a band aid. Most of the veterans at a higher level thought 5v5 was bad for OW but that is a diffferent discussion.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

15 minutes ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

Saying you could look into something else when your post states 'im done with gw2 i guess." isn't me giving a negative opinion. It is literally a suggestion. I said I didn't believe lowering the player count is a healthy fix because it removes complexity. If you think it should be less complex and that makes the game better you can rebut. I never played GW1 PvP so I don't know how those game modes worked out, it could be really great and I do not know why they haven't ported them over. Potentially concerns of a fragmenting the already low playbase for PvPs.

I think what invigorated OW was the fact they actually put time into trying to improve it after leaving to dry out for 3 years, then they ran a big advertising campaign so every average person on twitch feels like they must try it out. That game will have problems again and going from 6v6 to 5v5 is a band aid. Most of the veterans at a higher level thought 5v5 was bad for OW but that is a diffferent discussion.

I would argue that lowering the player count to 4v4 would add complexity to a fight and team set up. With 4v4 you would not have that extra dps or +1er in a game. Instead you have to pick the specs more carefully becuase you have less available resources so you have to make smarter decisions on whither or not to have an extra healer or extra dps. Also it make player skill more important becuase it will be more 1v1 fight oriented since you won't have an extra roaming class essentially. There are so many teleports, insta casting skills, invisibility, immobilize, there are so much more of everything added to the game since its 10 year conception. That it be nice to take a step back and try something new. And if it's not going to be new game modes it might as well be a different player count. 

[Mount Mazama.2917]

2 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

I would argue that lowering the player count to 4v4 would add complexity to a fight and team set up. With 4v4 you would not have that extra dps or +1er in a game. Instead you have to pick the specs more carefully becuase you have less available resources so you have to make smarter decisions on whither or not to have an extra healer or extra dps. Also it make player skill more important becuase it will be more 1v1 fight oriented since you won't have an extra roaming class essentially. There are so many teleports, insta casting skills, invisibility, immobilize, there are so much more of everything added to the game since its 10 year conception. That it be nice to take a step back and try something new. And if it's not going to be new game modes it might as well be a different player count. 

Okay, that is something I can understand. I think improving personal impact can be really good for the game in some situation and bad in others. We don't want one person taking over the field because their impact is not significantly more than it previously could have been, that will cause more games that most players don't enjoy. The main idea behind these types of PvP is team-based role oriented playstyles that reward teamwork and coordination. Games that give a single player the ability to dominate on their decision making alone do exist and people like them, but it's a different type of game. However giving players a better sense of agency will reduce the number of people that give up so quickly because the team is bad so you can't win. This would need to be done carefully. Moving the game to a more 1v1 centric gameplay means more chaotic games and no one should ever choose a healer. Moving away from large teamfights to mini brawls where you just outskill the other. This isn't neccesarily bad but it is very different from what the game is now.

The game is bloated with teleport, insta cast, CC etc. I agree with this. Removing a player from the field does address this somewhere but it isn't really a fix more than a band-aid. Eventually, high level 4 man squads will still CC you into oblivion if you are positioned poorly.

I think that they should be looking at news things and finding ways to mix things up, I am not completely oppose to the idea of 4v4s or even 3v3s I just think we will run into a different set of potential problems there and you are lowering the amount of things each player needs to focus on or consider. Your comp becomes more important, and you may even limit the number of 'meta acceptable' options because it's more important to cover all the bases unless we allow any class to dominate if played well which would be really difficult to achieve balance wise.

it's a complicated game with many moving pieces so the dev's have a lot to consider. Trying something different for the sake of it being different does not always mean a net benefit. They could really easily run some limited-time special events testing these things out thought to see how it plays out without a hard commit to changing conquest abruptly for the forseeable future. I suppose it could be better overall.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

What you are advocating for is destruction with no blueprint for how to rebuild it well.

Nah the solution is actually pretty simple.

Just get rid of ranked in general, it doesn't need a replacement.

Leave it to Unranked / Automated Tournaments only.

Seriously man, the problems plaguing the 5v5 ranked game mode are far too many to ever hope to fix. It just needs to stop at this point. This would actually be healthy for the game because it would put all queueing population back into unranked with no incentive to manipulate. In other words, the match quality would likey sky rocket. I think players at this point are much more concernd with getting GGs "good games" again, than anything else.

Just leave competitive for AT 5man premades where you can actually form properly and get clean games.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[JTGuevara.9018]

8 hours ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

While I think that it's true many people struggle to enjoy the current system which is why the population is ultimately low. What you are advocating for is destruction with no blueprint for how to rebuild it well. I don't see this as offering any solution at all. In fact this is just asking for it to be gone to make you feel better about it. You can just never play it again. That is a better solution than get rid of it because I do not like it so no one should. It is super easy to walk around and point out problems in the world around you, the diffcult part is finding solutions to the problems. If you can't solve your problems don't ask others to tear things down for you and rebuild with a solution they have to find out themselves and if it's wrong you will advocate for destruction again. Let's not cancel PvP.

This is a fine and ideal sentiment, but it is limited. If the system is bad, you address the system. There's only so much individuals can do. We would all like for systems to be fixed and not abolished, but that is not always the case. See, it is this sort of individualistic thinking and reasoning that I contest.

8 hours ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

You could say mental health issues have sky rocketed, many people are not enjoying their time here on earth living in our modern society. Society is too complex and corrupt by bad actors to fix it so let's just burn it down. Anyone who's best solution is to completely destroy something likely has not built much themselves and doesn't realise how much is put into creating even a broken system.

Now, you're just going way off topic. Yet, I will address this just this once. Number one, you need to take a look at history. A lot of social systems were beyond the point of fixing so they were abolished. (slavery, theocracy, feudalism). Not only were they crude, but they were unworkable. It didn't matter how much you tried to fix them, they would just collapse on themselves eventually. And that brings me to this point: the same way of thinking that created these systems is the same way of thinking that destroyed them. If it was possible for humans to radically alter real-world social systems, guess what, virtual systems are fair game.

8 hours ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

I would love to read your purposal for what to do afrer complete destruction. If you do not have a plan for that, why not leave it as it is and ignore it? More people will be benefited with the latter. Do you know how expensive it would be to rebuild the system from nothing? Are you paying for it? Would you like them to stop everything else they are doing with the game to put 100% development focus into remaking PvP or even just the MM system? These are complex, tricky systems that no one has made a perfect incarnation of. 

A blueprint is beyond the scope of just this one thread. However, for your sake I'll provide one.

Number one: Abolished ranked pvp and duo queue. (These must go.) Win-traders, afkers, match manipulators, need I say more? Replace it with ranked pvp based on actual wins and losses. Install a hard cap on the number of ranked matches that count towards pips. (say 5 a day..) so there are no leaderboard exploits.

Number two: Abolish the matchmaking system and build a new one from scratch. Glicko-2(the gw2 matchmaking algorithm) has been nothing short of a disaster and has given us lopsided matches for years. You can use basic ELO or some kind of round-robin format.

Number three: Reinstate player-generated, "on demand" tournaments to replace ATs. ATs are also filled with cheaters.

Number four: Bring back 8v8 or implement match formats with higher numbers. Anything below 5v5 gets harder to balance because the hard-counters between classes and builds are that much more severe the less number of players that exist. (I've seen enough of 2v2,3v3 to realize this.)

 

[Sahne.6950]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:18 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Nah the solution is actually pretty simple.

Just get rid of ranked in general, it doesn't need a replacement.

Leave it to Unranked / Automated Tournaments only.

Seriously man, the problems plaguing the 5v5 ranked game mode are far too many to ever hope to fix. It just needs to stop at this point. This would actually be healthy for the game because it would put all queueing population back into unranked with no incentive to manipulate. In other words, the match quality would likey sky rocket. I think players at this point are much more concernd with getting GGs "good games" again, than anything else.

Just leave competitive for AT 5man premades where you can actually form properly and get clean games.

I dont agree with you on much. But this is the truth and nothing but the truth.

Ranked in its current form is doomed! Too much manipulation, DuoQ is just plain stupid, people abuse the low offhour populations, yada yada.

Structured 5 man Tournaments and unranked is the future.

Unranked would have the rewards that ranked previously had, and the competitive aspect would evolve around smart teambuilding for the AT´s , instead of a coinflip wether the matchmaker wants you to win or not.

Those Tournaments dont have skillbased matchmaking, in other words.... NO MATCHMAKER. -> no manipulating the matchmaker to gain an advantage.

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 10/27/2022 at 4:39 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

I dont agree with you on much. But this is the truth and nothing but the truth.

Ranked in its current form is doomed! Too much manipulation, DuoQ is just plain stupid, people abuse the low offhour populations, yada yada.

Structured 5 man Tournaments and unranked is the future.

Unranked would have the rewards that ranked previously had, and the competitive aspect would evolve around smart teambuilding for the AT´s , instead of a coinflip wether the matchmaker wants you to win or not.

Those Tournaments dont have skillbased matchmaking, in other words.... NO MATCHMAKER. -> no manipulating the matchmaker to gain an advantage.

 

Well said, although I believe a coin flip would be better than what we currently have. What we currently have is basically double-sided coins of either heads or tails and an algorithm that picks between them!

[JTGuevara.9018]

Also, just going to post to keep this thread up.

Because, again folks, gw2 spvp as it stands is a insult to anything remotely resembling good game design. I bet I could do better being hired at Anet or NCSoft headquarters while taking some of that good stuff. Not that I'm going to apply or get hired, of course. (They'll never hire me, I'm way too outspoken as is...)

[Arheundel.6451]

The truth is...the average GW2 player is garbage and you have only a very small pool to supply decent matches, no amount of "fixing" will ever solve that

Edited October 30, 2022 by Arheundel.6451