Undo the rifle changes

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Good points but that is only like half the elite landscape, the problem is being forced to pick a counter to Engineer. 

You somehow completely missed the point that engineer is by far not the only class in the current meta which relies on projectiles, hence why one of their main arguments was that these builds don't use projectile hate specifically to counter engineer, but to counter several strong builds right now.

Harbinger, untamed, virtuoso, spellbreaker..... there are honestly many builds right now using projectile weapons or other projectile based skills.

[Wing.5819]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I am very much talking about "real world scenarios" here.

So are you talking about dps here or tagging a trash mob? 😄

idk what you find so funny.. tagging mobs is kinda important

[Wing.5819]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I am very much talking about "real world scenarios" here.

So are you talking about dps here or tagging a trash mob? 😄

...

Edited December 2, 2022 by Wing.5819
double post

[Vignar hellflame.1832]

Rifle on engi is terrible in PVE. In WvW rifle is so bad idk how anyone does damage, it crits for around 300 damage in full berserkers gear. The tool tip says it does 179 damage which is insanely bad.

[Zzik.5873]

If you want to nerf rifle do it, but can we at least got the 3x burst animation back. Its sad that we have the most ugly rifle animation of the whole game now because of "balance"... Look like someone that never did 3D animation was ask to do it. Its so ugly and impact less.

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Meh, i liked 3 shots 😕

[Kuma.1503]

I'd also like the old 3 round burst animation back. It looked janky with quickness, but that's solvable by tweaking the recoil animation. Just don't have the character jerk backwards on the 2nd bullet and it won't look like we're having a seizure. 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Sobx.1758]

I hope the machine-gun-aa rifle won't be making it back into the game, for me it was such a bizarre caricature of a weapon.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Zzik.5873]

I hope the machine-gun-aa rifle will be making it back into the game, for me it was such a nice thematic for a weapon.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Makuragee.3058

[gert.7698]

I normally play guild wars every day. But when I heard about the engineer changes, I stopped playing for a while. I was tired of anet changing my favorite proffesion so drastically. Yesterday I logged back in after a few weeks. I knew I had to prepare for the worst (I read the forums regularly) but omg... it was even worse than I thought.
How is it possible that anet screwed up such a nice proffesion like that... i hope they reverse the changes soon. this is really, really bad...

[Kendrel.9057]

Yeah, ive pretty much lost interest in this game. I thought i would make an engineer to play story/pve and relax while playing and it was lots of fun actually instead of playing my weak mage or the necro i dont like. Well, then they ruined it all with their balance patch.

 

 

[MrForz.1953]

An auto-attack change on a weapon and a condition on a spec's otherwise untouched effectiveness for a single class are all it took for some of you to totally lose interest in the game?

 

That is either bait, or borderline frightening.

[Corvolupo.5708]

5 minutes ago, MrForz.1953 said:

An auto-attack change on a weapon and a condition on a spec's otherwise untouched effectiveness for a single class are all it took for some of you to totally lose interest in the game?

 

That is either bait, or borderline frightening.

Yeh... I think Is an exageration... I've returned to my Qrapper with Hammer. Tools in solo and firearms during meta squad, Always fun and usefull... The rifle tho... Feels very bad now imo.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, MrForz.1953 said:

An auto-attack change on a weapon and a condition on a spec's otherwise untouched effectiveness for a single class are all it took for some of you to totally lose interest in the game?

 

That is either bait, or borderline frightening.

For me, it's isn't about quitting the game or anything, but since the change I have certainly cut back on playing my Mechanist which was my main for quite a while. The build I was using and having a blast with just isn't as fun anymore. And that's disappointing.
People react to disappointment in different ways. Personally, I've been trying out other classes and builds. If that was Anets goal, then they succeeded. The numbers of Mechanists running around have certainly dropped off. The class isn't dead or anything, But population had dropped significantly.
If overperforming was the issue, it could/should have been solved (easier I would think) by tweaking numbers. Instead of the 2 big changed (Rifle and Mechanical Genius) that they did do (imo).

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, MrForz.1953 said:

An auto-attack change on a weapon and a condition on a spec's otherwise untouched effectiveness for a single class are all it took for some of you to totally lose interest in the game?

 

That is either bait, or borderline frightening.

Yeah, those posts just look so ridiculous. How did they play the game before the mech was a thing? Why can't they still play the mech exactly the same way they did before?

 

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

If overperforming was the issue, it could/should have been solved (easier I would think) by tweaking numbers.

For the who-knows-which-time, you can ignore the passive and it leaves you with the same gameplay it was before the change, but with a small dps nerf. Which is exactly the "number tweak for overperforming build" you're talking about. Or you perform more actions and you mitigate the dps nerf with more proactive gameplay.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Gendalfs.7521]

12 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, those posts just look so ridiculous. How did they play the game before the mech was a thing? Why can't they still play the mech exactly the same way they did before?

Imagine those players who started to play after EOD expansion

[idpersona.3810]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

For the who-knows-which-time, you can ignore the passive and it leaves you with the same gameplay it was before the change, but with a small dps nerf. Which is exactly the "number tweak for overperforming build" you're talking about. Or you perform more actions and you mitigate the dps nerf with more proactive gameplay.

I do think it's more than "a small dps nerf", but I agree with your point mostly. The gameplay is the same in general, it just feels off (hard to quantify) and is less fun overall (again, imo). I think they could have accomplished the overall objective without making it less fun. That's all.

And admittedly, my opinion here is very subjective. But the changes (the 2 combined) have had the effect of me switching over to another character more often than not.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I do think it's more than "a small dps nerf", but I agree with your point mostly. The gameplay is the same in general, it just feels off (hard to quantify) and is less fun overall (again, imo). I think they could have accomplished the overall objective without making it less fun. That's all.

Ok. But did you check what dps nerf it is or do you just think so? I think the only thing that could "feel off" comes from not being a machinegun now, which for me was ridiculous in the first place, but understandably it was in the game enough time to get used to it. I wouldn't say changing AA is a mistake, I think leaving that machinegun AA in the game for this -relatively- long was a mistake. Obviously, like you said, subjective.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Corvolupo.5708]

12 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, those posts just look so ridiculous. How did they play the game before the mech was a thing? Why can't they still play the mech exactly the same way they did before?

 

For the who-knows-which-time, you can ignore the passive and it leaves you with the same gameplay it was before the change, but with a small dps nerf. Which is exactly the "number tweak for overperforming build" you're talking about. Or you perform more actions and you mitigate the dps nerf with more proactive gameplay.

I agree with you regarding the mech, the mechanical Genius change Is not bad per-se, It Need Just more polish, but the rifle change, imo, Is what has killed the flow of the weapon and the fun of using It for most casauals, (i'm One of them). The animation issue should have been handled differently if you ask me, now It Is Just... Boring... Not bad but a boring AA filler feeling, (and terribile DMG pvp wvw whise). But i have played melee engi for 10 years, so... Ok i can live with It but kitten anet, cmon put some effort when balancing and testing stuff.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok. But did you check what dps nerf it is or do you just think so? I think the only thing that could "feel off" comes from not being a machinegun now, which for me was ridiculous in the first place, but understandably it was in the game enough time to get used to it. I wouldn't say changing AA is a mistake, I think leaving that machinegun AA in the game for this -relatively- long was a mistake. Obviously, like you said, subjective.

I did a brief test, and it was relatively small in PvE. In WvW (what I was using my Mechanist for a lot the previous few weeks) it just plain sucks now. I understand AA shouldn't feel great by itself, but now it's really pathetic.
And I also realize I'm just speaking from my own experiences. I started Mechanist right after that machine gun rifle change and it felt really fun. That was part of the appeal for me.

Edited December 12, 2022 by idpersona.3810
Third line. Edited should to shouldn't

[Sobx.1758]

52 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I did a brief test, and it was relatively small in PvE. In WvW (what I was using my Mechanist for a lot the previous few weeks) it just plain sucks now. I understand AA should feel great by itself, but now it's really pathetic.

So when you said "If overperforming was the issue, it could/should have been solved (easier I would think) by tweaking numbers.", what exactly were you talking about? Pve? Wvw? Both? Neither?

Because if it was about pve, now you're saying you unedrstand it's a relatively small dps nerf, so it did what it was supposed to do. And when you're talking about wvw then the straight numerical nerf would probably achieve the same thing? From what I see, part of the usual misunderstanding when talking about builds comes from lack of specifying which mode the feedback is about.

1 hour ago, Corvolupo.5708 said:

I agree with you regarding the mech, the mechanical Genius change Is not bad per-se, It Need Just more polish, but the rifle change, imo, Is what has killed the flow of the weapon and the fun of using It for most casauals, (i'm One of them). The animation issue should have been handled differently if you ask me, now It Is Just... Boring... Not bad but a boring AA filler feeling, (and terribile DMG pvp wvw whise).

Not much to say here, fully understand people got used to the old feeling of aa, duh, I got used to it despite thinking it was ridiculous from the start. I'm glad they changed it and yet still needed some -admittedly, rather short though 😄- time to adjust. I think it's perfectly natural though, so I don't see it as an issue.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[idpersona.3810]

23 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So when you said "If overperforming was the issue, it could/should have been solved (easier I would think) by tweaking numbers.", what exactly were you talking about? Pve? Wvw? Both? Neither?

Because if it was about pve, now you're saying you unedrstand it's a relatively small dps nerf, so it did what it was supposed to do. And when you're talking about wvw then the straight numerical nerf would probably achieve the same thing? From what I see, part of the usual misunderstanding when talking about builds comes from lack of specifying which mode the feedback is about.

I meant the class/spec in general, but thinking about it further I suppose WvW mainly, and PvE slightly. The Rifle change is relatively small by itself (in PvE). The Mechanical Genius DPS change I hadn't tested on a golem. Under most circumstances I haven't had an issue with positioning, but anytime things get cluttered (Metas, Zergs, etc) it becomes very difficult to track and the mech does whatever it feels like. I agree with one of the people above that said this wouldn't be as big an issue with more polish.  But it doesn't have that and they rolled the change out anyways. For me, it's hard to differentiate between the 2 changes in terms of fun. They both rolled out at the same time and the class is less fun now (obviously just my opinion).

Editing since you did 🙂
I think the WvW dmg nerf (and I assume in PvP as well) is too much. In PvE, the Rifle AA nerf is "relatively small", but along with the Mechanical Genius change it feels like a bigger deal.
And fair point on the difference in play mode affecting the discussion.
For me, PvE is less fun. The 2 changes combined spoil the class somewhat compared to how much I enjoyed it before. In WvW it feels nearly unplayable (again, compared to how it was before).
2nd edit: Oh, and it's worth noting that the dps nerf from AA wasn't intended. If I remember correctly they said in the announcement that the triple to double shot would be offset and the damage would go up to compensate leaving it overall the same. That didn't end up being true. So that can lead to some negative feeling about that particular change as well.
 

23 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not much to say here, fully understand people got used to the old feeling of aa, duh, I got used to it despite thinking it was ridiculous from the start. I'm glad they changed it and yet still needed some -admittedly, rather short though 😄- time to adjust. I think it's perfectly natural though, so I don't see it as an issue.

I know when the change first rolled out, people complained about it missing a lot now since there's a delay. I don't know how accurate that is, but if so, I do see that complaint as pretty valid. But yea, for me it's just a matter of fun. This version seems slow. It's been a couple of weeks now and I've mostly gotten used to it. But I would say part of that being easier for me is because I've moved on to playing some of my other characters more. Which doesn't seem a great solution but it is what it is.

Prior to Mechanist I was playing Warrior main for over a year. So I would (sarcastically) say I've gotten used to playing disappointing classes. 🙂

Edited December 12, 2022 by idpersona.3810

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I meant the class/spec in general, but thinking about it further I suppose WvW mainly, and PvE slightly. The Rifle change is relatively small by itself (in PvE). The Mechanical Genius DPS change I hadn't tested on a golem. Under most circumstances I haven't had an issue with positioning, but anytime things get cluttered (Metas, Zergs, etc) it becomes very difficult to track and the mech does whatever it feels like. I agree with one of the people above that said this wouldn't be as big an issue with more polish.  But it doesn't have that and they rolled the change out anyways. For me, it's hard to differentiate between the 2 changes in terms of fun. They both rolled out at the same time and the class is less fun now (obviously just my opinion).

Ok, so initial complaint was not exactly well thought out, glad you thought about it further now though since putting it in that context does make it more understandable. Although it still goes back to the MrForz post how some of the posts about it seem clearly and intentionally overdramatized.

About the mech tracking, in meta zergs it seems kind of irrelevant anyways. On the other hand if that's the request for some friendly-golem's-overhead marker/arrow to make it easier trackable then sure, not much against that request. As I already wrote before, either personal mark or changing mech's name to something distinguishable does the job.

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Editing since you did 🙂
I think the WvW dmg nerf (and I assume in PvP as well) is too much. In PvE, the Rifle AA nerf is "relatively small", but along with the Mechanical Genius change it feels like a bigger deal.
And fair point on the difference in play mode affecting the discussion.
For me, PvE is less fun. The 2 changes combined spoil the class somewhat compared to how much I enjoyed it before. In WvW it feels nearly unplayable (again, compared to how it was before).
2nd edit: Oh, and it's worth noting that the dps nerf from AA wasn't intended. If I remember correctly they said in the announcement that the triple to double shot would be offset and the damage would go up to compensate leaving it overall the same. That didn't end up being true. So that can lead to some negative feeling about that particular change as well.

The edit of my post was 14 minutes before you responded to it, you even have the exact same post quoted, I think (and I've read your post before this edit, still seemed like you've quoted all of what I wrote right away)? Clarifying since your edit sounds like i somehow modified the post after the fact to hide something or w/e. What did I even edit in that it somehow prompted this whole edit all of the sudden? 😄

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I know when the change first rolled out, people complained about it missing a lot now since there's a delay. I don't know how accurate that is, but if so, I do see that complaint as pretty valid. But yea, for me it's just a matter of fun. This version seems slow. It's been a couple of weeks now and I've mostly gotten used to it.

See and for me it mostly seems like something else, because -some- people claim "they'd be fine with numerical nerfs", but they still keep complaining about the mechanical genius even though they can ignore it and it would simply result in that exact "numerical nerf" they claim they'd be ok with. It really makes it seem to me that it's -maybe not entirely, surely not by everyone, but still by many- not exactly the case of "it was so fun and now it's somehow not!", but more of the actual performance complaint.

Kind of understandable that the rifle AA has a different feeling, but that as "able to get used to" as the initial rifle change was. On the other hand anyone saying "they'd be ok with numerical dps nerf" when they keep mentioning mechanical genius... nah, at that point it clearly isn't about fun or playstyle, it's straight up about low effort performance.

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

But I would say part of that being easier for me is because I've moved on to playing some of my other characters more. Which doesn't seem a great solution but it is what it is.

People flocking an overperforming class/build seems natural, so does the situation where some people move away from it once it's... less overperforming for how it plays. Repeating what from my understanding amounts to "if that was anet's goal then great job!" seems a bit pointless and misguided. 😉

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Prior to Mechanist I was playing Warrior main for over a year. So I would (sarcastically) say I've gotten used to playing disappointing classes. 🙂

Well, it's those exact "pseudo-sarcastic" comments that are also weird to me. I say "pseudo-sarcastic", because even though you make a point it's "sarcastic", you write it for a reason and that reason isn't because you don't think what you've just wrote, right? Otherwise... what's the point of including that sentence?

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[idpersona.3810]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, so initial complaint was not exactly well thought out, glad you thought about it further now though since putting it in that context does make it more understandable. Although it still goes back to the MrForz post how some of the posts about it seem clearly and intentionally overdramatized.

Well in fairness, I think discussion is whole point of these forums (for me anyways). Initial thoughts are meant to be reevaluated as additional opinions come in. And I agree with some posts being over dramatized, but also assume that the underlying feeling to the reaction is true to the person posting. I try to assume all posts/arguments on here are made in good faith until proven otherwise.

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

About the mech tracking, in meta zergs it seems kind of irrelevant anyways. On the other hand if that's the request for some friendly-golem's-overhead marker/arrow to make it easier trackable then sure, not much against that request. As I already wrote before, either personal mark or changing mech's name to something distinguishable does the job.

After seeing that suggestion on here, I've started using the personal marker almost every time. It works well. But I also think we shouldn't have to work around the system they give us. It should have been rolled out better imo.

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The edit of my post was 14 minutes before you responded to it, you even have the exact same post quoted, I think (and I've read your post before this edit, still seemed like you've quoted all of what I wrote right away)? Clarifying since your edit sounds like i somehow modified the post after the fact to hide something or w/e. What did I even edit in that it somehow prompted this whole edit all of the sudden? 😄

Oh. I edited twice. When I first did it, the forum showed an edit to your afterwards and I just wanted to make sure I was responding correctly and avoiding confusion. All too easy on here. Btw, thank you for being a reasonable person to discuss this with. Fairly often on here I've seen people dig in and be really rude when they don't automatically see eye to eye. 🙂

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

See and for me it mostly seems like something else, because -some- people claim "they'd be fine with numerical nerfs", but they still keep complaining about the mechanical genius even though they can ignore it and it would simply result in that exact "numerical nerf" they claim they'd be ok with. It really makes it seem to me that it's -maybe not entirely, surely not by everyone, but still by many- not exactly the case of "it was so fun and now it's somehow not!", but more of the actual performance complaint.
Kind of understandable that the rifle AA has a different feeling, but that as "able to get used to" as the initial rifle change was. On the other hand anyone saying "they'd be ok with numerical dps nerf" when they keep mentioning mechanical genius... nah, at that point it clearly isn't about fun or playstyle, it's straight up about low effort performance.

So here I think some nuance is worth adding. As you said, mode matters a lot. But more than that, I think: depending on the person, they may have expected a different level of damage nerf than they got. Personally (imo) I think tweaking the numbers instead of the system would have been a better way to go since it can more easily be changed if it overshot their target. Like, I expected some amount of dps loss from the mech genius part, but none from the rifle rework (based on the announcement). The rifle AA was more than I expected. The Mechanical Genius system side seems more like a punishment than a reward, which is what they sold it as. In the end though, I can only hope something gets changed for the better (which is again subjective), but I don't really expect it.
I also don't think that it's just about "low effort performance", which also means wildly different things to different players. So that's hard to decide on anyways.

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, it's those exact "pseudo-sarcastic" comments that are also weird to me. I say "pseudo-sarcastic", because even though you make a point it's "sarcastic", you write it for a reason and that reason isn't because you don't think what you've just wrote, right? Otherwise... what's the point of including that sentence?

Fair. Psuedo-sarcastic fits. I'm not trying to get really off topic, but it is generally accepted (I think?) that Warriors have got the short end of the developer attention for years now. I was shocked to see how much work (APS) I was doing on my warrior for sub-par results compared to the Mechanist I started. Even after the nerfs, my Mechanist still outperforms my Warrior. Both in pure dps and in buffs brought to the group. So now I'm trying out various other classes/builds.

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

See and for me it mostly seems like something else, because -some- people claim "they'd be fine with numerical nerfs", but they still keep complaining about the mechanical genius even though they can ignore it and it would simply result in that exact "numerical nerf" they claim they'd be ok with. It really makes it seem to me that it's -maybe not entirely, surely not by everyone, but still by many- not exactly the case of "it was so fun and now it's somehow not!", but more of the actual performance complaint.

Did you ever consider that there are people who simply dislike giving themselves a penalty?

That's the case for me. Since I know that this mechanical genius punishment exists (no, Anet, this is not a mechanic which rewards positioning, this is a mechanic which punishes, the exact opposite of rewarding), I will avoid getting that punishment when I can.

Yes, I can use the come to me and attack commands to avoid the punishment. I adjusted and do that every time I play mechanist. At the same time, I find this gameplay extremely annoying. It's a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation. The gameplay is just annoying me to no end, especially since there are also the blue rings of other mechanists around and it's annoying to keep track of your mech in large number fights. But if I just ignore this mechanic, I am also annoyed because I know I don't play the class to it's full potential.

So yeah, I would have preferred a straight up damage nerf over this change. Because then i wouldn't have to deal with the annoying punishment for not kitten slapping my mech every 6 seconds and would still use the class to it's full potential.

There could also have been other ways to make mechanist require more input from the player, for example removing the ability to put mech commands on auto cast again (which also helps in other aspects, for example braindead mechanists which keep CCing the watchknights in OLC because they can't think for 2 seconds and turn off the auto cast of their mech CC skills).

Edited December 13, 2022 by Kodama.6453