Fervent Force isn't the problem

[Mell.4873]

With the recent patch and the reality that they probably will nerf or even remove Fervent Force, I want to highlight the real issue with this trait to avoid its potential nerf. 

*skip to end if you want the solution 

The real reason they are looking to nerf Fervent Force is the fact that it has 43k Untamed DPS benchmark. If you look into why? It boils down to being able to reset Axe Skill 2 & 3 very quickly through the skill Path of Scars (Axe 4).

Why is Path of Scars the culprit? Well we have 15 second cooldown skill being reduces first by a trait (12 sec) then by two stuns (once is itself). The final cooldown is 4 seconds. This gives the player very little time to cast skills but enough time to cycle both Axe Axe Skill 2 & 3 every 5-6 seconds. This is why it is so strong.

 

I propose we do 2 things.

First is do not allow Fervent Force to reset the skill (stun) that triggers it. This would prevent the first reset of Path of Scars.

Second is removing the cooldown reduction trait from Honed Axe's instead replace it with buff to each skill like Shortbow trait. For example extra Bleed on main hand axe and extra damage on offhand axe. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

The real reason they are looking to nerf Fervent Force is the fact that it has 43k Untamed DPS benchmark.

No. They want to remove it because it's equivalent of a gun pointing at you when doing anything to core and Untamed. Balancing ranger is incredibly difficult just because FF exists.

Either they remove it (all CD reduction traits are getting changed, so nothing strange tbh), nerf it to the point of being unusable or never buff core/untamed in a meaningful way.

[Mell.4873]

6 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

No. They want to remove it because it's equivalent of a gun pointing at you when doing anything to core and Untamed. Balancing ranger is incredibly difficult just because FF exists.

Either they remove it (all CD reduction traits are getting changed, so nothing strange tbh), nerf it to the point of being unusable or never buff core/untamed in a meaningful way.

I feel like at this point Untamed identity especially in PvE is tied to Fervent Force. It is the entire reason to play it over Soulbeast, both other grandmaster traits are directly worse than any Soulbeast build. 

I think they don't really understand this, at the very least they could split the trait up and offer a cooldown reduction somewhere else in the traitline so it requires more investment to get back to the power of current Fervent Force. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Beddo.1907]

14 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I feel like at this point Untamed identity especially in PvE is tied to Fervent Force. It is the entire reason to play it over Soulbeast, both other grandmaster traits are directly worse than any Soulbeast build. 

I think they don't really understand this, at the very least they could split the trait up and offer a cooldown reduction somewhere else in the traitline so it requires more investment to get back to the power of current Fervent Force. 

The espec identity shouldn't be tied to a single trait. The only reason why FF is still there is because Untamed will be buffed first, there is no point in saying that Soulbeast will be better if FF gone, because we don't know what will be changed yet. 

They understand that this trait will hurt ranger in the long run. Every buff will be forced to be pulled back if FF does something ridiculous with it. As for the FF split: the value wouldn't be better than any of the current gtraits, since ranger doesn't have good cooldowns and currently only works because of the reduction loop.

[The Boz.2038]

Nah, fam, FF is the problem, and needs be deleted.

[Mell.4873]

34 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

The espec identity shouldn't be tied to a single trait. The only reason why FF is still there is because Untamed will be buffed first, there is no point in saying that Soulbeast will be better if FF gone, because we don't know what will be changed yet. 

They understand that this trait will hurt ranger in the long run. Every buff will be forced to be pulled back if FF does something ridiculous with it. As for the FF split: the value wouldn't be better than any of the current gtraits, since ranger doesn't have good cooldowns and currently only works because of the reduction loop.

Well currently hands down Soulbeast is still better than Untamed so removing Fervent Force will bring it in direct competition.

If they balance Untamed so it has better benchmarks and has a relatively easy rotation (right now this is not the case) then Soulbeast is useless and if the reverse is true Untamed becomes useless (It is power damege too). 

 

Ranger also won't get any new traits or skill so the only balance that could effect FF is more cooldown reductions which is unlikely. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Beddo.1907]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Ranger also won't get any new traits or skill so the only balance that could effect FF is more cooldown reductions which is unlikely. 

But we can get trait and skill reworks (CD traits are confirmed to be changed and there is a lot of useless skills). If we get a skill rework with high value, being able to refresh it at double or triple rate would be problematic (as for the trait reworks it's harder to say). That leads to ranger getting nothing valuable.

I'll say it over and over again: FF shouldn't even exist and hurts ranger over time.

[Kodama.6453]

I agree with Beddo and The Boz, fervent force definitely is the problem. As a design, it strangles ranger in general. All buffs to core skills always have to get balanced with this trait in mind, since it will enable to use these skill much more frequently (way better than alacrity, the best boon in the game, ever could).

We already see this to some extent. Spirits are balanced for all ranger specs to be able to keep up permanent alacrity on a group. Then there is untamed, which can do the same with way less investment in spirits, resulting in it having the highest dps benchmark of every alacrity dps provider (and also higher damage than quickness providers can achieve).

The argument that the trait is currently untamed identity also speaks for changing it. Because that just shows once again that this trait is crowding out the other grandmaster choices, it is just so good that you will never run any other grandmaster trait in PvE. Even if having access to a permanent 20% damage modifier is actually pretty kitten good.

And then there is also the fact that fervent force as a design just goes completely against anet's proposed balance philosophy. This trait doesn't have any defined role, it just improves everything your build does, no matter what that might be. It is the complete anti-thesis of the concept of purity of purpose.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

I wouldn't say that Fervent force is the problem because it would mean that aside from the trait untamed is perfect, but it is a problem.

There simply isn't enough limits to the CD reduction that the trait offer. When you take into account the fact that the devs where affraid that catalyst's elemental celerity would be too strong despite the 90s CD and the fact it's restricted to weapon skills, it's hard to believe that they didn't put more restriction to fervent force. Even Bladesworn already had a nerf to it's ability to reduce CD (which was already weaker than what fervent force offer).

A change to fervent force is needed and I'd rather have a full rework than see it's current effect only being applied to Untamed skills.

 

[Zaret.1450]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

With the recent patch and the reality that they probably will nerf or even remove Fervent Force, I want to highlight the real issue with this trait to avoid its potential nerf. 

*skip to end if you want the solution 

The real reason they are looking to nerf Fervent Force is the fact that it has 43k Untamed DPS benchmark. If you look into why? It boils down to being able to reset Axe Skill 2 & 3 very quickly through the skill Path of Scars (Axe 4).

Why is Path of Scars the culprit? Well we have 15 second cooldown skill being reduces first by a trait (12 sec) then by two stuns (once is itself). The final cooldown is 4 seconds. This gives the player very little time to cast skills but enough time to cycle both Axe Axe Skill 2 & 3 every 5-6 seconds. This is why it is so strong.

 

I propose we do 2 things.

First is do not allow Fervent Force to reset the skill (stun) that triggers it. This would prevent the first reset of Path of Scars.

Second is removing the cooldown reduction trait from Honed Axe's instead replace it with buff to each skill like Shortbow trait. For example extra Bleed on main hand axe and extra damage on offhand axe. 

The problem is that ranger has 3 specs, and all of them can use axe as it is a core weapon, even without axe there are some great benchmarks with hammer and fervent force.

So to make it a bit more easy to see, lets dissect it a bit.

Fervent force is a trait that works this way, once you use a cc skill succesfully on a target, be it possible to actualy cc or not, the trait lowers the cool down of every single one of your skills by a certain amount, for example i can use hammer 4 unleashed, go to normal mode, use normal hammer 3 and hammer 5, and ill have hammer 4 again with a 1 second cooldown or so, and also as i used hammer 3 and then hammer 5 the cooldown on hammer 3 is lowered by the use of hammer 5 just after, this, with a couple added skills, ends up in a cicle in wich i never stop using skills and where i have no spike nor low point in my dmg output, at least not a significant one.

The options to change this would be, as opener said, to change the cc skills, be it its cooldown, the cc itself etcetera, the problem would be, longbow, axe, warhorn, those weapons are core and used not only by untamed wich would end up in an unnecesary nerf on elites that do not deserve nor need them.

Another option would be deleting fervent force or adding a dmg reduction side to the trait, but that would be atrocious traits that lower dmg are horrible, and fervent force is a trait that makes certain playstile viable and engaging so i think thats too much.

Then theres a last option, nerf fervent force, you could make fervent force cd reduction a bit lower, it would need some testing but it could be a value that makes playing a smooth rotation viable but slower, so it doesnt reach such astronomical dps values, another would be to add a slight internal cooldown, say, a couple of seconds, so youd need to add an auto attack combo in between cc skills, that would probably also lower the damage but still make the build valid.

[The Boz.2038]

8 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I wouldn't say that Fervent force is the problem because it would mean that aside from the trait untamed is perfect, but it is a problem.

There simply isn't enough limits to the CD reduction that the trait offer. When you take into account the fact that the devs where affraid that catalyst's elemental celerity would be too strong despite the 90s CD and the fact it's restricted to weapon skills, it's hard to believe that they didn't put more restriction to fervent force. Even Bladesworn already had a nerf to it's ability to reduce CD (which was already weaker than what fervent force offer).

A change to fervent force is needed and I'd rather have a full rework than see it's current effect only being applied to Untamed skills.

 

Fervent Force - When you unleash, reduce cooldowns of all your equipped weapon skills. When your pet unleashes, reduce cooldowns of all your equipped pet skills. 
Recharge Reduced: 5 seconds

There, I fixed it.

[Dadnir.5038]

25 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Fervent Force - When you unleash, reduce cooldowns of all your equipped weapon skills. When your pet unleashes, reduce cooldowns of all your equipped pet skills. 
Recharge Reduced: 5 seconds

There, I fixed it.

I can already imagine the rapid fire spam that such change would induce. In fact... not just rapid fire... Your idea might be even worse than the current Fervent force, I'm impressed.

[The Boz.2038]

Jesus, I keep forgetting they axed that whole 10s cooldown thing. 

[Beddo.1907]

48 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Fervent Force - When you unleash, reduce cooldowns of all your equipped weapon skills. When your pet unleashes, reduce cooldowns of all your equipped pet skills. 
Recharge Reduced: 5 seconds

There, I fixed it.

*wheeeeze*

That would actually be kitten hilarious type of broken and I kinda want to see how much over the board it is. Also even with internal CD it wouldn't fix the design wall.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

But we can get trait and skill reworks (CD traits are confirmed to be changed and there is a lot of useless skills). If we get a skill rework with high value, being able to refresh it at double or triple rate would be problematic (as for the trait reworks it's harder to say). That leads to ranger getting nothing valuable.

I'll say it over and over again: FF shouldn't even exist and hurts ranger over time.

Maybe, I just don't see what they could replace it with that would be equally powerful. 

Now that I'm thinking about it Untamed is barely used in PvE as it is. If they were to buff the damage above Soulbeast for let's say Condition builds then I could see it filling that role. 

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

The problem is that ranger has 3 specs, and all of them can use axe as it is a core weapon, even without axe there are some great benchmarks with hammer and fervent force.

So to make it a bit more easy to see, lets dissect it a bit.

Fervent force is a trait that works this way, once you use a cc skill succesfully on a target, be it possible to actualy cc or not, the trait lowers the cool down of every single one of your skills by a certain amount, for example i can use hammer 4 unleashed, go to normal mode, use normal hammer 3 and hammer 5, and ill have hammer 4 again with a 1 second cooldown or so, and also as i used hammer 3 and then hammer 5 the cooldown on hammer 3 is lowered by the use of hammer 5 just after, this, with a couple added skills, ends up in a cicle in wich i never stop using skills and where i have no spike nor low point in my dmg output, at least not a significant one.

The options to change this would be, as opener said, to change the cc skills, be it its cooldown, the cc itself etcetera, the problem would be, longbow, axe, warhorn, those weapons are core and used not only by untamed wich would end up in an unnecesary nerf on elites that do not deserve nor need them.

Another option would be deleting fervent force or adding a dmg reduction side to the trait, but that would be atrocious traits that lower dmg are horrible, and fervent force is a trait that makes certain playstile viable and engaging so i think thats too much.

Then theres a last option, nerf fervent force, you could make fervent force cd reduction a bit lower, it would need some testing but it could be a value that makes playing a smooth rotation viable but slower, so it doesnt reach such astronomical dps values, another would be to add a slight internal cooldown, say, a couple of seconds, so youd need to add an auto attack combo in between cc skills, that would probably also lower the damage but still make the build valid.

I think a good start to fixing Fervent Force is my first suggestion, By not allowing the initial stun to reset itself you would limit stuns like Path of Scars.  The Axe is still very strong though and the trait is very boring and offers nothing for Condition Builds. 

[Kodama.6453]

7 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Maybe, I just don't see what they could replace it with that would be equally powerful. 

Dude, they won't replace it with something equally powerful, nor should they. The problem is that fervent force is broken OP, so why the hell would they want to give something equally powerful in return? That would just switch out one OP thing for another, which is not the point.

[Mell.4873]

7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Dude, they won't replace it with something equally powerful, nor should they. The problem is that fervent force is broken OP, so why the hell would they want to give something equally powerful in return? That would just switch out one OP thing for another, which is not the point.

How many Untamed players do you see in end-game instanced content. I'm guessing 0 so even now it is under powered and barely has any use case outside a gimic build were you can reset your cooldown very fast with Path of Scars. 

Fervent Force is not a problem in PvP too. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

How many Untamed players do you see in end-game instanced content. I'm guessing 0 so even now it is under powered and barely has any use case outside a gimic build were you can reset your cooldown very fast with Path of Scars. 

Fervent Force is not a problem in PvP too. 

I see an untamed player literally every time I do instanced content, because I am playing these with someone who mains ranger and uses that trait to keep up perma alacrity with minimal investment.

It is not underpowered, it just has a higher skill floor. But once you get the hang on it, the trait is simply busted. You can keep telling yourself that this trait is underpowered, but reality (and Anet, since they already told us they want to bring that trait down) begs to differ.

Fervent force is not a problem in PvP because:

A The trait is heavily nerfed in that environment (just half the CD refund it gives in PvE)

B CCing a target reliably is harder in that environment, because other players are taking measures to ensure they don't get CCed, unlike PvE enemies.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I see an untamed player literally every time I do instanced content, because I am playing these with someone who mains ranger and uses that trait to keep up perma alacrity with minimal investment.

It is not underpowered, it just has a higher skill floor. But once you get the hang on it, the trait is simply busted. You can keep telling yourself that this trait is underpowered, but reality (and Anet, since they already told us they want to bring that trait down) begs to differ.

Fervent force is not a problem in PvP because:

A The trait is heavily nerfed in that environment (just half the CD refund it gives in PvE)

B CCing a target reliably is harder in that environment, because other players are taking measures to ensure they don't get CCed, unlike PvE enemies.

So it went from 0 to 2

They want to buff Untamed before they nerf Fervent Force so I'm expecting it to get better before it gets worse. 

I think is main problem is that all its traits are focused on Power Damage and all its skills are focused on Condition Damage. 

[Inoke.8793]

Unless they completely rework the class I personally don't see how Untamed would be viable in PvE raids without FF. 

 

I'm a weirdo that also enjoys occasionally playing HAUnt and losing FF would destroy the build.

 

Maybe a change to preventing FF from resetting CC skills instead of just killing the playstyle completely? 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Inoke.8793
Spelling

[Beddo.1907]

4 hours ago, Inoke.8793 said:

Maybe a change to preventing FF from resetting CC skills instead of just killing the playstyle completely? 

Yeah no. If you can't loop it, FF becomes straight up worse than FS, because you don't have anything worth resetting.
The issue is not only not fixed, but now FF is dead.

Untamed will get a lot more buffs and QoL changes like in the last patch, before getting a new trait, so it might work out.
However it will take time unless they go all in like with the Firebrand rework.

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Inoke.8793 said:

Unless they completely rework the class I personally don't see how Untamed would be viable in PvE raids without FF. 

 

I'm a weirdo that also enjoys occasionally playing HAUnt and losing FF would destroy the build.

 

Maybe a change to preventing FF from resetting CC skills instead of just killing the playstyle completely? 

Hmm it's tricky there is no clear way to proceed, I like the idea that Untamed resets cooldown so maybe if all the grandmaster traits did this to some capacity it would be amazing. 

3 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Yeah no. If you can't loop it, FF becomes straight up worse than FS, because you don't have anything worth resetting.
The issue is not only not fixed, but now FF is dead.

Untamed will get a lot more buffs and QoL changes like in the last patch, before getting a new trait, so it might work out.
However it will take time unless they go all in like with the Firebrand rework.

Either way this will probably have to rework some core traits/skills like when they split "Sic Em" for Soulbeast. 

I think what is lacking currently is a good reason to use the Ambushs, right now I often skip the Hammer Ambush so I can get back into triggering Fervent Force faster. 

 

I also love the idea that a CC can't trigger Fervent Force on itself (I believe its only delayed CC that do this)

Edited December 6, 2022 by Mell.4873

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

23 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Nah, fam, FF is the problem, and needs be deleted.

Quoting this for emphasis. As much as I like the trait, it absolutely has to go.

[Zaret.1450]

17 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think a good start to fixing Fervent Force is my first suggestion, By not allowing the initial stun to reset itself you would limit stuns like Path of Scars.  The Axe is still very strong though and the trait is very boring and offers nothing for Condition Builds. 

It offers the same to both power and condi builds, its skill reset, also even if axe 4 didnt reset itself you could use hammer, that has both h3 and h5.