Fervent Force isn't the problem

[Mell.4873]

Again

On 1/11/2023 at 4:03 AM, Zivhayr.3658 said:

I think munchuswewil said it best.

This....

On 12/23/2022 at 4:12 PM, Mell.4873 said:

They should also nerf the ability for stun skills to trigger their own cooldown due to the cast time delay. 

Then go ahead an include pets in the FF stun mechanic along with the 3 second buff/nerf. 

I mean this is the best change and will sort out most of the problems. It would essentially force hammer into the Defacto FF trait weapon (without CC pets) and everything else would use the other two traits.

Pets would also receive a huge buff since stuff like Wyverns, Canines, Pigs would be best in slot.

[Kaenaydar.5631]

I am fine that fervant force is removed if some of the core weapons and skills that are ignored are improved. I use a longbow and hammer untamed that uses ferocious symbiosis given its less situational. I hope anet also does something to buff Untameds pets. To me it doesnt make sense that the pet class does little to help said pets.

[Strider.7849]

On 1/24/2023 at 3:44 PM, Kaenaydar.5631 said:

I am fine that fervant force is removed if some of the core weapons and skills that are ignored are improved. I use a longbow and hammer untamed that uses ferocious symbiosis given its less situational. I hope anet also does something to buff Untameds pets. To me it doesnt make sense that the pet class does little to help said pets.

I think a lot of ranger mains want it removed. It's not only the band-aid holding Untamed together but it's potential to get our core utilities, weapons, and traits nerfed in the future. Looking at what mesmers elite specs have done to its core - it's not the same path I'd like to see for ranger. It's better to do away with that trait now so that the spec can hopefully be fixed from the ground up.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

They can just split it for PvE like they did OWP. 

As no one is using it seriously in competitive as its a non-factor there due to both UT and the Elite having build in CD reductions without it.  So, at most you are refreshing Protect Me or the heal when you could just take FS.  

People act like FF is distortion or aura spam OP, it's kind of odd.  

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

They can just split it for PvE like they did OWP. 

As no one is using it seriously in competitive as its a non-factor there due to both UT and the Elite having build in CD reductions without it.  So, at most you are refreshing Protect Me or the heal when you could just take FS.  

People act like FF is distortion or aura spam OP, it's kind of odd.  

Because it is that level of OP, just in PvE.

 

I will agree it's not good in PvP though.

[Zyreva.1078]

8 hours ago, Strider.7849 said:

I think a lot of ranger mains want it removed. It's not only the band-aid holding Untamed together but it's potential to get our core utilities, weapons, and traits nerfed in the future. Looking at what mesmers elite specs have done to its core - it's not the same path I'd like to see for ranger. It's better to do away with that trait now so that the spec can hopefully be fixed from the ground up.

It's been almost a year and there have been exactly zero FF related nerfs. The opposite is the case, both core ranger and untamed have received quite a few buffs in PvE. And there is absolutely no reason to assume FF will have any negative impact on non untamed specs in the future. Bad changes - that can always happen - are likely going to have other reasons.

2 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Because it is that level of OP, just in PvE.

Yea, so op that untamed still remains one of the least played specs in PvE, regardless of what type of content and skill level you are looking at.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

15 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Yea, so op that untamed still remains one of the least played specs in PvE, regardless of what type of content and skill level you are looking at.

The trait is incredibly busted. You can easily use things like the active elite spirit skill multiple times in a minute with FF. FF gets hammer untamed to 40k DPS (ferocious Symbiosis hammer untamed is 35k). FF lets untamed run a single spirit with 0 concentration and the nature magic traitline for full alacrity uptime. Fervent Force is the single most broken trait in the game and gives too many opportunities for other things on ranger to be nerfed because of it.

[Zyreva.1078]

3 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

The trait is incredibly busted. You can easily use things like the active elite spirit skill multiple times in a minute with FF. FF gets hammer untamed to 40k DPS (ferocious Symbiosis hammer untamed is 35k). FF lets untamed run a single spirit with 0 concentration and the nature magic traitline for full alacrity uptime. Fervent Force is the single most broken trait in the game and gives too many opportunities for other things on ranger to be nerfed because of it.

Then why isn't it played unlike any other actually op build?

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Then why isn't it played unlike any other actually op build?

Because it's difficult. If you play it well, it's bonkers. If not, it's trash.

 

It's the inverse of heal scourge. In a bad group, Heal Scourge is absolutely broken. In a good group, Heal Scourge is near worthless.

 

In a good group, Untamed is insane. In a bad group, Untamed will struggle more.

 

Both rely on good players piloting them.

 

With Untamed it isn't even about the inherent strength of the build itself but more of what issues it causes balancing the rest of core ranger- what if they buff something that's on one of ranger's longer cooldowns? 

[Zyreva.1078]

8 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Because it's difficult. If you play it well, it's bonkers. If not, it's trash.

But it's not played a whole lot in tryhard grps/record runs either, where l2p usually does not apply (unlike other op but hard to play specs like pre nerf cata that got stacked in those instances). So again, explain me why that is the case.

Edited January 26, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Since FF apparently renders cds irrelevant anyway, why would it matter?

When the balancing factor for a lot of skills comes from their cooldowns and cast time, being able to effectively flat out remove one of those important factors is insanely strong.

 

It's different from pre-nerf cata because pre-nerf cata was high DPS with some stacking potential. Untamed doesn't need stacking and it invalidates the balancing of cooldowns- there's a reason ranger axe 5 doesn't cool down in 5 seconds.

[Zyreva.1078]

10 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

When the balancing factor for a lot of skills comes from their cooldowns and cast time, being able to effectively flat out remove one of those important factors is insanely strong.

I misread and already deleted said part of my post. Still, you want to completely kill an entire build/playstyle because it could eventually in some unknown far furture possibly hurt another build. You see the flaws in your logic?

10 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

It's different from pre-nerf cata because pre-nerf cata was high DPS with some stacking potential. Untamed doesn't need stacking and it invalidates the balancing of cooldowns- there's a reason ranger axe 5 doesn't cool down in 5 seconds.

Untamed has top dps and boons, same as cata, no reason not to stack it according to you. So again, explain why it's not played. Why it's not resulting in new records or causing other ridiculous things to happen?

Edited January 26, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

6 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I misread and already deleted said part of my post. Still, you want to completely kill an entire build/playstyle because it could eventually in some unknown far furture possibly hurt another build. You see the flaws in your logic?

Untamed has top dps and boons, same as cata, no reason not to stack it according to you. So again, explain why it's not played. Why it's not resulting in new records or causing other ridiculous things to happen?

The "flaw in my logic" is something they have done in the past- for example, nerfing longbow, because sic em soulbeast was too much in wvw, even though nerfing longbow hits every non-sic em longbow user and it was specifically soulbeast that was the problem.

 

The reason why it isn't played is 1. It's difficult and 2. Any mistake means you can lose the strength it has.

 

Neither of those things change the fact that FF is quite the broken trait- as much as I like it, it shouldn't stick around in its current state.

[Zyreva.1078]

6 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

The "flaw in my logic" is something they have done in the past- for example, nerfing longbow, because sic em soulbeast was too much in wvw, even though nerfing longbow hits every non-sic em longbow user and it was specifically soulbeast that was the problem.

So you'd rather have soulbeast completely gutted, instead of some very minor autoattack nerfs that didn't actually impact any relevant builds?

Even if some nerfs can cause (sometimes inevitable) collateral damage, that's still no reason to completely kill builds right off the bat.

6 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

 

The reason why it isn't played is 1. It's difficult and 2. Any mistake means you can lose the strength it has.

Other difficult to play specs are/were played when they were op, so no, that's not the reason.

 

I can tell you why it isn't played. It's often impractical in actual content and even if played perfectly FF usually can't be used to it's full theoretical potential. FF has it's limitations and as such it ends up being more or less balanced. Practical application matters, not how it looks on paper.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

5 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

I can tell you why it isn't played. It's often impractical in actual content and even if played perfectly FF usually can't be used to it's full theoretical potential.

That is literally what I have been saying this entire time.

 

Just because FF doesn't hit its theoretical maximum doesn't mean it isn't incredibly strong even still.

 

Killing builds because of the "potential for collateral" doesn't work when you'd be trying to buff the other builds. They can't buff or rework as much because they have to think about how it interacts with FF.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

That is literally what I have been saying this entire time.

Difficult to play and impractical are not the same.

1 minute ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

 

Just because FF doesn't hit its theoretical maximum doesn't mean it isn't incredibly strong even still.

Apparently not strong enough considering the numbers ...

1 minute ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Killing builds because of the "potential for collateral" doesn't work when you'd be trying to buff the other builds.

That sentence does not make sense.

1 minute ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

They can't buff or rework as much because they have to think about how it interacts with FF.

They have buffed quite a lot since EOD release ...

If something is op with FF (in practise, not on paper!), it probably does not need buffs and there are also plenty of ways to nerf FF Untamed without completely killing it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I can tell you why it isn't played. It's often impractical in actual content and even if played perfectly FF usually can't be used to it's full theoretical potential. FF has it's limitations and as such it ends up being more or less balanced. Practical application matters, not how it looks on paper.

 

I do think this is probably the general-purpose answer. 

I've outlined above my thoughts on the practical limitations for PvP, but for PvE it probably comes down to spirits die too easily without perfect positioning, and/or boss movement messes up the axe rotation, and if either of those happen then huge DPS loss happens.  

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

30 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I do think this is probably the general-purpose answer. 

I've outlined above my thoughts on the practical limitations for PvP, but for PvE it probably comes down to spirits die too easily without perfect positioning, and/or boss movement messes up the axe rotation, and if either of those happen then huge DPS loss happens.  

You don't need spirits for full dps untamed, if you're playing alac untamed right they shouldn't die.

 

The point still stands that any change they want to make to core, you can effectively double the effect with untamed. With 1 spirit alac untamed you effectively triple a single Spirit's alac output (at max boon duration, you need 3 spirits for max uptime)

Edited January 26, 2023 by RainbowTurtle.3542
Typo more like typoo

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

You don't need spirits for full dps untamed, if you're playing alac untamed right they shouldn't die.

 

The point still stands that any change they want to make to core, you can effectively double the effect with untamed. With 1 spirit alac untamed you effectively triple a single Spirit's alac output (at max boon duration, you need 3 spirits for max uptime)

 

Apparently 'right' is too difficult for even the vast majority of raiders as this is on the Snowcrow's site for Power Untamed:

"This build has an extremely fast rotation that can be hard to master and even harder to pull off."

For Condition Untamed:

"The rotation is hard to learn and may take a lot of practice, but has a consistent loop that rewards you with high damage output."

For Power Alac Untamed:

"Power Alacrity Untamed seemingly has a simple rotation but fast fingers are required."

Now, if these are descriptions on a hardcore raider site, and open world doesn't matter, and FF isn't seriously used in competitive--why should they even bother nerfing it? 

As it appears the actual issue here is Untamed is too hard for anyone to play for the effectiveness it gives, so it needs reworked and not nerfing.  It's been mentioned a few times now that FF could be reworked and only apply CD to cantrip skills instead of some major nerf or removal.  

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

You don't need spirits for full dps untamed, if you're playing alac untamed right they shouldn't die.

 

The point still stands that any change they want to make to core, you can effectively double the effect with untamed. With 1 spirit alac untamed you effectively triple a single Spirit's alac output (at max boon duration, you need 3 spirits for max uptime)

All of that is just nonsense and once again shows that you don't have any clue what you are talking about.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It's been mentioned a few times now that FF could be reworked and only apply CD to cantrip skills instead of some major nerf or removal.  

That would be a very major nerf.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

That would be a very major nerf.

 

I don't see how; it follows the Tactical Reload change on Bladesworn.  Which by itself isn't a bad change, it's the other nerfs to BS that hurt it (ex: protection over stab on DT).  

The intent is to curb the DPS rotations of PvE (which it will), and it will also preserve functionality in PvP due to reasons I mentioned before of two of your cantrips already having built in CD reduction (elite and UT), and the other utility skills don't need CD reduction at all (i.e., mainly protect me and the heal skill).  

Altering it to only affect cantrips also opens up fixing it so that pet CC's count.  They don't now because it refreshes all your skills and has practically no ICD, so there's no way they can have pet CC trigger it in its current state.  

Edited January 27, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

All of that is just nonsense and once again shows that you don't have any clue what you are talking about.

In instanced PvE with a competent team healing will quite literally spill over onto your spirits. It's the same as druid healing, just not coming from the ranger. 

[Strider.7849]

16 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

It's been almost a year and there have been exactly zero FF related nerfs. The opposite is the case, both core ranger and untamed have received quite a few buffs in PvE. And there is absolutely no reason to assume FF will have any negative impact on non untamed specs in the future. Bad changes - that can always happen - are likely going to have other reasons.

Yea, so op that untamed still remains one of the least played specs in PvE, regardless of what type of content and skill level you are looking at.

Quote from November 29th patch:

"Fervent Force is a trait that we're likely to bring down in a future update, but we want to improve other options for untamed before doing so."

 

[Zyreva.1078]

6 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

In instanced PvE with a competent team healing will quite literally spill over onto your spirits. It's the same as druid healing, just not coming from the ranger. 

"with a competent team" is very different than "if you're playing alac untamed right". Because at least when pugging it is rather rare to have a team that keeps spirits alive as untamed. It is much easier when playing druid (tho there are a few mechanics that oneshot them).

1 hour ago, Strider.7849 said:

Quote from November 29th patch:

"Fervent Force is a trait that we're likely to bring down in a future update, but we want to improve other options for untamed before doing so."

I know about the devs stance regarding FF and it doesn't contradict my points. If would be as op as some here claim, they would have nerfed it long ago, just like many other things they deemed op.

Edited January 27, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think a problem that's getting ignored is FF in its current state is preventing untamed from having a more versatile and practical rotation so that alone should warrant it getting changed. It'll just run into the ele problem otherwise.