Tired Of Pepega Invuln Design Classes

[Sahne.6950]

The Bending continues. 

In the quote you are referring to, it cleary say that ElixirS is a "oldschool invuln".  

I ignored the wordsalad that this Thread truely is, and just applied the two generally accepted definitions of invulns, on that exact quote. Which you are referring to the whole time.

 

Thats what i did:

we know that there is 2 diffrent invulns. So the first thing i did was nail down the mechanics of the two invulns, so its very clear how the 2 diffrent versions work, and we can identifie, in which of the two categories, Elixir S falls.

From here on, its just 1 logic step away, to identifie what newschoolinvulns are, because we know the 2 definitions and we know that Elixir S is oldschool. The main difference is that one locks your skillbar but you can use F things, and for the other its the exact opposite.

 

According to the Quote, Elixir S is a oldschool.... Elixir S locks your skillbar, but F interactions are possible.

Obsidianflesh works the exact opposite way...  Skillbar stays active, but F interaction are not possible.

Following that logic... obsidianflesh HAS to be a newschool invuln.

But if someone shows you something with Obsidianflesh.... its suddenly not a newschool invuln....   But what is it then!?!?!

 

I already see your trying to make up a third Invuln mechanic.....  which, coincidentally, Obsidianflesh will be... i already see it coming.

 

but idc anymore, i explained the logical thoughtprocess behind my statements. make of it what you want, im out of this convo.... it leads nowhere.

Have a great one, and good luck bending this.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

30 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The Bending continues. 

In the quote you are referring to, it cleary say that ElixirS is a "oldschool invuln".  

Yes, it also says that Renewed Focus is one. Which is my entire point. Trevor Boyer is including them in the same category, you are not. According to your changed definition, RF would be in a different category to Elixir S.

30 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I ignored the wordsalad that this Thread truely is, and just applied the two definitions of invulns, on that exact quote. Which you are referring to the whole time.

No you did not, you added your own narrative about how old school invulns "disables skillbars, F interactions are possible" which Trevor did not say, and you changed the examples from Elixir S and Renewed Focus to Elixir S and Mist Form to suit this narrative.

30 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

we know that there is 2 diffrent invulns. So the first thing i did was nail down the mechanics of the two invulns, so its very clear how the 2 diffrent versions work, and we can identifie, in which of the two categories,Elixir S falls.

From here on, its just 1 logic step away, to identifie what newschoolinvulns are, because we know the 2 definitions and we know the Elixir S is oldschool. The main difference is that one locks your skillbar but you can use F things, and for the other its the exact opposite.

No, again to Trevor there are two types of invulns in which Elixir S and Renewed Focus (and therefore Mist Form and Obsidian Flesh) are in the same category - old school invulns.

Personally I disagree that there are 2 different types of invulns, I would probably say there are three, but that is besides the point right now as we are arguing under Trevor's definition.

30 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

According to the Quote, Elixir S is a oldschool.... Elixir S locks your skillbar, but F interactions are possible.

Obsidianflesh works the exact opposite way...  Skillbar stays active, but F interaction are not possible.

Following that logic... obsidianflesh HAS to be a newschool invuln.

No, Obsidian Flesh works like Renewed Focus, an old school invuln (according to Trevor himself).

Honestly I'm starting to suspect you don't know how Distortion works or how the old Obsidian Flesh used to work. Log onto Mesmer right now and use Distortion and cast a skill - you will see that Distortion does not "lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln" and instead "allow[s] something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time". You can cast Gravity Well -> Phantasmal Berserker -> Mirror Blade -> Mind Wrack all while inside of Distortion. This makes it a fundamentally different invuln from Renewed Focus or Obsidian Flesh but under your twisted definition they would all be of the same type.

30 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I already see your trying to make up a third Invuln mechanic..... in which, coincidentally, Obsidianflesh will fall into... i already see it coming.

but idc anymore, i explained the logic thought process behind my statements. make of it what you want.

 

Have a great one.

Again, we are arguing according to Trevor Boyers definitions here, so what I personally think isn't relevant.

Edited December 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Sahne.6950]

3 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yes, it also says that Renewed Focus is one. Which is my entire point. Trevor Boyer is including them in the same category, you are not.

No you did not, you added your own narrative about how old school invulns "disables skillbars, F interactions are possible" which Trevor did not say, and you changed the examples from Elixir S and Renewed Focus to Elixir S and Mist Form to suit this narrative.

No, again to Trevor there are two types of invulns in which Elixir S and Renewed Focus (and therefore Mist Form and Obsidian Flesh) are in the same category - old school invulns.

Personally I disagree that there are 2 different types of invulns, I would probably say there are three, but that is besides the point right now as we are arguing under Trevor's definition.

No, Obsidian Flesh works like Renewed Focus, an old school invuln (according to Trevor himself).

Honestly I'm starting to suspect you don't know how Distortion works or how the old Obsidian Flesh used to work. Log onto Mesmer right now and use Distortion and cast a skill - you will see that Distortion does not "lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln" and instead "allow[s] something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time". You can cast Gravity Well -> Phantasmal Berserker -> Mirror Blade -> Mind Wrack all while inside of Distortion. This makes it a fundamentally different invuln from Renewed Focus or Obsidian Flesh but under your twisted definition they would all be of the same type.

Again, we are arguing according to Trevor Boyers definitions here, so what I personally think isn't relevant.

Following that logic... obsidianflesh HAS to be a newschool invuln.    What is it then? 

plain simple question.

in what category falls obsidianflesh?

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

Following that logic... obsidianflesh HAS to be a newschool invuln.    What is it then? 

??? It works the same way as Renewed Focus, an "oldschool invuln", so it is an oldschool invuln.

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

??? It works the same way as Renewed Focus, an "oldschool invuln", so it is an oldschool invuln.

and how do you explain to me that it works significantly diffrent to elixir s, which is also a oldschool invuln? 

what is a newschool invuln then?

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

and how do you explain to me that it works significantly diffrent to elixir s, which is also a oldschool invuln? 

what is a newschool invuln then?

Like Distortion and Obsidian Flesh before it got nerfed in 2020. Log onto Mesmer and try to cast some skills during Distortion and you will understand.

[Sahne.6950]

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Like Distortion and Obsidian Flesh before it got nerfed in 2020. Log onto Mesmer and try to cast some skills during Distortion and you will understand.

so distortion is a newschool invuln?

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950
had a brainfart.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

11 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

so distortion is a newschool invuln?  okey. 

And why do you keep mocking Trevor over and over again, daring him to show you a invuln which lets you attack/burst during it....   When the answer is distortion...

Distortion can do that. So i really dont understand why you kept mocking trevor about it.

 

 

Because Distortion has existed in the same form since 2012, both on F4 and on Blurred Inscriptions. His narrative hinges on more invulns of this type having been added, why else the epithet "new school". What makes them new? He says (underlines mine):

Quote

 

"Arenanet seems to think glass cannon structures should have a lot of these effects but the more effects like this you grant to them, the higher their DPS potential goes up because they can use just these defenses instead of needing to invest any stats at all into anything attribute-tied. They can run Berserker/Scholar with all traits pointed towards pve like DPS and still be an absolute tank like a Virtuoso because they've given way too many free invuln effects. Like an inordinate unnecessary amount of random invulnerability that also allows them to maintain offense while using those defensive effects.

Keep in mind there is a big difference between oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln, vs. these new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time."

 

I'm not mocking him, I'm asking him to answer a question. What "these new school invulns" refers to. Why can't you just let him answer the question?

Edited December 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Because Distortion has existed in the same form since 2012, both on F4 and on Blurred Inscriptions. His narrative hinges on more invulns of this type having been added, why else the epithet "new school". What makes them new? He says (underlines mine):

I'm not mocking him, I'm asking him to answer a question. What "these new school invulns" refers to. Why can't you just let him answer the question?

But according to this there is skills in the "oldschool category" that work completly diffrent from eachother, while distortion is the only newschool invuln.

I firmly believe that according to the definition "distortion" is a "oldschool invuln".  ..... am i wrong here? how does it work?

maybe im brainfarting...  cuz i dont play alot of mesmer.....but im pretty sure thats how it works....    right?

 

He cant answer, because there is a big flaw in your question.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

But according to this there is skills in the "oldschool category" that work completly diffrent from eachother, while distortion is the only newschool invuln, altho it works like a "oldschool invuln".

I firmly believe that according to the definition "distortion" is a "oldschool invuln".   It locks your skillbar and you could press F on downed enemys.....   just how the other "oldschool invulns"..... am i wrong here? 

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

maybe im brainfarting...  cuz i dont play alot of mesmer.....but im pretty sure thats how it works....    right?

Yes, log on Mesmer and try it. It doesn't work like you seem to think it does.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Sahne.6950]

18 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yes, log on Mesmer and try it. It doesn't work like you seem to think it does.

 

You cant cast skill but you could press F? how does it work?  answer that question please.... i literally dont know.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You cant cast skill but you could press F... right?    answer that question.

if the answer is yes, its a "oldschool invuln" according to the quote you are referring to.

Distortion doesn't work like any other invuln in this game.

You can freely cast everything you usually could. You can use both, skills and f key interactions, freely while under the effect of distortion. You just happen to be invulnerable during that time.

So according to this ongoing discussion here, I guess it should be considered a "new school invuln", since it doesn't inhibit your gameplay in any way.

[Sahne.6950]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Distortion doesn't work like any other invuln in this game.

You can freely cast everything you usually could. You can use both, skills and f key interactions, freely while under the effect of distortion. You just happen to be invulnerable during that time.

So according to this ongoing discussion here, I guess it should be considered a "new school invuln", since it doesn't inhibit your gameplay in any way.

Not the hero we derserved, but the hero we needed.

Thanks! ❤️ I am simply missing the Mesmer knowledge, to make definite statements here. (havent played mes since 2015)

 

@agrippastrilemma.8741

😂"So now, step aside and let Trevor answer the question, which are these "new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time"?" 😂

Kodama: Distortion.  

 

I am really curious what he will bend now,... he said distortion is newschool...  *grabs Popcorn 🍿*

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

32 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Not the hero we derserved, but the hero we needed.

Thanks! ❤️ I am simply missing the Mesmer knowledge, to make definite statements here. (havent played mes since 2015)

 

@agrippastrilemma.8741

😂"So now, step aside and let Trevor answer the question, which are these "new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time"?" 😂

Kodama: Distortion.  

 

I am really curious what he will bend now,... he said distortion is newschool... and you can freely cast during it..... my guess is, he will try and twist the word "burst"... because thats the only option he has left....  *grabs Popcorn 🍿*

You are absolutely unbelievable. You have to be trolling. There is no way.

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You are absolutely unbelievable. You have to be trolling. There is no way.

Is Distortion a newschool invuln that let's you freely attack during the invuln? 

Yes or no?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

Is Distortion a newschool invuln that let's you freely attack during the invuln? 

Yes or no?

Yes, for gods sake, that's what I've been saying the entire time while you tried to say that Obsidian Flesh is one! That's the whole point of this discussion! Holy Christ in heaven!

Okay, that's the last reply to Sahne for now, I'll wait for Trevor Boyer to come back.

[Sahne.6950]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:16 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

but one of the things I mentioned was this quote of yours: "Keep in mind there is a big difference between oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln, vs. these new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time."

Which are these new school invulns that allow you to burst while being invulnerable, Trevor?

"Which are these new school invulns that allow you to burst while being invulnerable, Trevor?"

Answer: distortion is a invuln that lets you cast freely during the invulnframe. 

^this is the answer to your cocky question.

 

 

But whats this!?!? 🤯

All of a sudden distortion is a newschool invuln during which you can burst. And youve been saying that the whole time. ? 

 

Avatar: The last Forumbender.  

Firenation would be fuming if they knew how strong your bending has become. 

"He is just never wrong" eyewitnesses report. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[godfat.2604]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

All of a sudden distortion is a newschool invuln during which you can burst. And youve been saying that the whole time. ? 

Except that Distortion was never changed since released, thus I don’t get the “new” idea over there, when it comes to being invulnerable while being able to “burst”, I thought it’s been clear that’s Distortion. Granted, maybe that wasn’t explicitly mentioned, and instead of using questions over questions, it should have been made clear from the beginning.

If anything new, Mirage Cloak is closer to Distortion even though it’s evade not invulnerability. At least that’s newer than Distortion, and the idea was similar.

[Sahne.6950]

 

I have no clue why they use these terms... 

But, as he said himself in the post right above this one, and going by their own vague terms, distortion is a newschoolinvuln, altho theres nothing new about it. I have no clue what defines it as such... but thats what hes saying. He named distortion as the only newschool invuln, besides old Obsidianflesh from years ago.... which is weird... as its the OLD Obsidianflesh... no clue whats "newschool" about that... 

I have tried to make definitions to get a grasp at what were talkingabout, but they were obviously wrong, according to him. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@agrippastrilemma.8741 Carefully reread the OP statement and don't look into it for arguments or assume what you think it says, just take what is written literally and actually. Here it is:

On 12/10/2022 at 4:25 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ thread title

Not even going to elaborate too much here as I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about.

Ele & Mes are the biggest culprits. We can INB4 discussion about if it is or isn't OP, which in my opinion both of these classes are overboard lately in terms of off-node combat potential, due to too many invulns or stacked small effects that essentially create invuln. But what I'm mainly talking about is how obnoxious invulnerable designs are. No one likes to play against builds that have infinite cycling damage mitigation tools. It's getting to a point where unless classes are melee based and have access to ublockables, you can't hit these kinds of invulnerable designs. They seriously have enough blocks/invulns/random extra evades on top of dodges, on top of infinite anti-projectile, to completely mitigate damage unless someone brings some particular very specific build that has very specific tools to be able to get around the insane amount of utility it has for not defensive play, but invulnerable play.

Furthermore, tossing too many invulns to a class to make it stronger is lazy balancing. Mesmers are always saying "Our class is useless in conquest". In truth their class is very strong combat wise, but it is bad at holding nodes. This is because their class has been balanced for so long around invlun effects, that to be able to keep up in combat they have to use those invulns, and that makes them lose node cap progress. The more invulns that are tossed at a class to allow it to keep up in combat, the worse that class gets at holding nodes in conquest. Then we get classes/builds like classic Mesmer archetypes that are nigh invulnerable that can't hold nodes. That or archetypes like current Catalyst that is just too kitten strong in general.

Contributing my 2 cents into this forum on the topic, I can say that particularly Ele & Mes needs to lose some of the straight invuln effects and be rebalanced differently.

I'm no Ele or Mes main so you tell me how it should be done.

1. I never responded to your questions about "what do I mean exactly?" because the very first post in this thread already explains exactly what I meant. It states Ele & Mes in general. This isn't confusing to understand. It very literally states Ele and Mes in general, meaning Catalyst & Virtuoso, right down to the core classes. You confused yourself by trying to dig at this statement when anyone else would have taken it literally and understood that the basis of the discussion was about all of the invuln and invuln-like potential, keyword all, that exists between these core classes and their specializations.
2. My statement immediately defines that the thread is about both invulnerability and invuln-like effects. This includes everything from actual labeled invulns such as Obsidian Flesh or Distortion, to things like Stone Heart and Blur, as well as the plethora of anti-projectile effects between these two classes and everything else defensive they possess. However, you had focused your discussion only on actual labeled invuln effects, disregarding the clear reference to invuln-like status that is easily achieved through having too many defensive tools in general, which is where you confused yourself. The basis of this discussion referencing "invuln-design-archetypes" is discussing what high skill cap players can do with a class that has too many defensive tools in general, which is create invulnerable playstyles.
3. No one said anything about Mesmer being strong or OP in conquest. This opening statement specifically states that Mesmer is strong in combat but not at holding nodes. By strong in combat, I mean that you can't kill it if it doesn't want to die. By bad at holding nodes, I mean most builds rely too heavily on invulns & stealths for serious node play. This statement meant nothing more and nothing less. There is no reason to misrepresent what I've said for the sake of your own narrative. But nevertheless, let's not forget that Chronobunker is currently a side node meta, and it is one of the more annoying invuln-like archetypes to deal with, as it utilizes a set of alternative defense skills to create a playstyle that is virtually invulnerable vs. most classes/builds in play. <- That's what the thread is about, too many invuln-archetypes currently in the GW2 meta.
4. Pay special attention to how I say: "Particularly Ele & Mes needs to lose some of the straight invuln effects and be rebalanced differently." Contrary to your misrepresentation of my statements and multiple instances where you insinuated that I wanted things nerfed or straight removed, the only thing I ever said is that I wanted them rebalanced. What I meant by this was: "Drop some of the invuln & invuln-like overdefensive stature that makes these builds bad at conquest, and compensate them with some other types of defenses that allows them to be good at node holding again, that also presents more counterplay for classes/builds that have no counterplay against them, while also allowing them to maintain adequate combat potential in the meta". I then grant special consideration to the sensitivity of the mains of these classes, and rather than throw my own detailed suggestions, I asked the community: "You tell me how to fix it." So when you began asking for me to get extremely specific about certain things, my whole point & purpose behind this thread was for me to not get specific about those things. I wanted the Ele & Mes mains to get specific about those things. My point & purpose in the OP statement was simply to point out how too many invuln-like archetypes were changing the dynamic of conquet in bad ways, and that it needed a rebalance.

It would seem that everyone else reading this thread read it literally and commonsensically understood these things ^ the first time around, except for you. You are the only one who did not clearly understand the basic premise of the OP statement.

As far as this persisting argument about "new school" and "old school" invulns & invuln-like effects, you are once again digging way way way too deep into this with assumptions & misrepresentations of your own fabrication, while taking it all extremely out of context just to argue with Sahne. All I meant by making this on the spot distinction, was to show the difference between how invuln effects were being designed at the game's initial release vs. how they began to design things later. I wasn't aiming at creating a thesis around it for the sake of argument.

Here is what I meant:

Initial Release Old-School Invulnerabilities & Invuln-like effects:

1. Warrior - no actual invulns but has half invulns that are still susceptible to CC, Endure Pain and Berserker Stance. No animations are locked while using these.
2. Guardian - Renewed Focus - locks animation, can't use attack skills, can't use F skills, can use instants.
3. Engineer - Elixir S - locks everything except movement & F skill use.
4. Thief - no invulns unless you consider blind spam invuln-like.
5. Ranger - no actual invulns but does a half invuln, Sig Of Stone, which operates the same as Endure Pain or Serk Stance, not locking any animations, but still susceptible to CC.
6. Necromancer - no invulns, didn't need them with Core Necro Shroud in a world pre-power creep.
7. Elementalist - Obsidian Flesh & Earth Shield - locks animations, can use instants, can't use normal attacks, can't use F skills. - Mist Form - works like Elixir S, locks everything except for movement & F skill use.
8. Mesmer - Distortion - This is the only original invuln that didn't have heavy drawbacks to its use in the way that every other invuln or invuln-like effect had. Distortion just straight up doesn't lock you out of anything. Distortion in this regard is more like the new school invulns & invuln-like effects that began to be added later with expansions.

New-School Invulnerabilities & Invuln-like effects that came with expansions:

1. Spellbreaker - Full Counter - It's not technically an invuln but it's an invuln, and it happens very frequently. It locks you into the counterattack animation but this is nothing but advantageous and can be cancelled at any time. There are no drawbacks while using this invuln. It is certainly allowing offensing & defensing at the same time while invulning and you can't be CC'd while using it.
2. Willbender - Reversal Of Fortune - It's not technically an invuln but it's an invuln. In fact it has one thing that's better than an invuln which is that it heals you when used. It does lock you into an animation but it is an invuln that isn't an invuln, that absorbs any & all attacks even unblockables, and you can't be CC'd while using it.
3. Everything Revenant - It has no actual invulns or true invuln-like abilities. The only thing it has that touches this is Infuse Light, and even Infuse Light doesn't negate CCs so you can't really count it as invuln or invuln-like. Vindicator however does possess invuln-like playstyle through the mixture of many smaller defensive mechanisms, which equate to a build that is generally too tanky for other builds to kill in a 1v1 situation if it doesn't want to die. Although it is quick to swap between offensing and defensing, it can't really perform a hard invuln while performing a hard offense at the same time, in the same way something like a Mesmer could do with Distortion or Infinite Horizon. Revenant with HoT did however, bring in a new trend of skills like Unrelenting Assault, which are skills with unusually long evade frames that offense while defensing.
4. Everything Engi - It really gained no invuln or invuln-like effects, but rather gained more and more DPS and CC and offense and generally strange multi-utility in general.
5. Everything Thief - It really only gained more and more mobility, stealth, ranged, and eventually a necro shroud.
6. Everything Ranger - Druid gained nothing but heals & cleanses, Soulbeast & Untamed gained defenses that can be chained into short lived invuln-like status through many blocks/evades/ect , but they were granted no actual invulnerability.
7. Scourge & Harbinger and some Necro upgrades in general like CPC or weakness on crits - Scourge was an interesting case for awhile when barriers were seriously overperforming in conjunction with Blood Bank and Sanctuary Runes. During this era which wasn't long ago, a Scourge was not only providing invuln-like status for itself, but also its entire team fight. This was like unprecedented levels of ridiculous support, probably the most support-deep meta we've ever seen. Then Necro began using a plethora of other small effects like CPC/weakness on crits, to create its own invuln playstyles for awhile. Again, what is important to note is that it was able to offense while defensing during the use of all of these effects, without ever being locked out of any other options. No drawbacks.
8. Chronobunkers - Mirage with Infinite Horizon - Virtuoso Blocking - Granting Distortion to Chrono/Virtuoso. Nothing more needs to be said for anyone who knows the history of GW2 and its mechanics. All of the expansion content for Mesmer just kept adding more and more and MORE invuln and invuln-like effects that allow it to offense while defensing at the same time.
9. Tempest Auras - Weaver Side Node & 1v1 Dominance - New Catalyst Side Node & 1v1 Dominance - They weren't granted any direct new invulns, but each new expansion kept introducing more and more small effects for Ele to be able to stack, to create invuln-like status. Because their invuln-status effects are precast effects with elongated durations, it allows them to use normal attacks during these invuln-like periods. And this isn't to mention stacking these new effects with the old effects, which work in the opposite way, precast a DPS effect that lingers and then go invuln during its duration.

You can see what I meant by "old-school" and "new-school" invulns. The new effects they began to add that were either new invulns or invuln-like effects, kept becoming easier and easier to use, with less and less drawbacks, that usually provided the ability to offense while defensing without being locked out of anything at all. My statement was meant to be taken generally, not as an ultra accurate thesis.

Again, I don't understand why you're digging at everything said to you. 99% of anyone who read the original versions of these statements, would have fully understand what was being said without someone needing to explain it in every little detail, because they play the game and would have already known what I just explained here, without it needed to be explained to them.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Waffles.5632]

Very well put and concise list @Trevor Boyer.6524  I understood it well, and kinda makes the previous pages worth it imo.

 

I noticed that generally speaking, "invul" essentially means any ability that makes you both immune to damage and CC. At least that is what I always took it to mean, and the "true invul" for me has always been distortion. No animation, instant cast, complete immunity to everything for X seconds. That has been in game since launch AFAIK so it's the OG invul to me as well, or the "oldschool"

 

My only small nitpick about Mesmer distortion is it does have drawbacks. They are;

- base distortion is only one second, you need 3 clones to get the full duration of four seconds, this can matter in certain scenarios and also means the Mesmer needs to be in combat as well since clones instantly evaporate once the Mes exits combat, Virtuoso changed this because blades can be stocked out of combat.

- Very long CD, in PvP you are looking at being able to use one distortion every ~3 team fights, now for comparison, harbinger shroud 5 can be used roughly every team fight. This is why waiting out distortion was effective, at least against old school Mesmer, because you knew it wouldn't be up again for a long time, then chrono changed that with time magic.

Anet realized this long standing counter was now skewed, so they took away core distortion from chrono, and that one change effectively killed the class because they went from two distortions (if played well) to zero.

Now fast forward and Anet goes oh wow nobody plays chrono anymore wonder why, ADD DISTORTION! Boom, the class becomes alive again. Alongside this is Virtuoso, which did not ship with core distortion, but it got added later.

 

All of this is to say though that distortion (for Mes) is balanced around high cooldown and limited access, as it should always be, because it is still IMO the strongest ability in the entire game. I think it's important to note these subtleties because not only does each "invul"  work differently and no 2 are exactly the same, but even within the Mesmer elites you can see how Virtuoso gets a "better" distortion than chrono/mirage/core. They don't need to be in combat, but at same time, they no longer have clones as well either.

 

Again though ty for the well put list above, I am just adding my contribution.

 

My personal opinion still is; re-work how virtuoso interacts with distortion. Lower duration distortions like an ammo skill, 2 charges, each charge grants 1sec distortion, etc, would work wonders for the class imo, as well as reworked ranged abilities. Virutoso is the only EoD spec where the theme and art don't match the class execution at all. You want to feel like you're controlling these floating psychic daggers but with how you're forced to face your target it just makes it silly. Meanwhile holo's get free reign on grenade spam no matter what direction they run.

Whatever anet does, giving core distortion to Virtuoso was a mistake that much is clear.

Chrono however, needs core distortion or it will literally die again.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Terrorhuz.4695]

19 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

things

I still question the necessity for virtuoso to have distortion at all. I understand distortion is required to proc a certain amount of traits (especially in chaos), but honestly those traits should just be reworked anyway.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

18 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I think it's important to note these subtleties because not only does each "invul"  work differently and no 2 are exactly the same, but even within the Mesmer elites you can see how Virtuoso gets a "better" distortion than chrono/mirage/core. They don't need to be in combat, but at same time, they no longer have clones as well either

Glad you pointed this out. Not being a Mesmer main, it had not occurred to me that Virtuoso had such easier access to its Distortion. This is a huge factor in the discussion.

Also, thank you for taking the time to actually read what was posted and give correct and proper feedback.

It was refreshing.

 

[Waffles.5632]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I still question the necessity for virtuoso to have distortion at all. I understand distortion is required to proc a certain amount of traits (especially in chaos), but honestly those traits should just be reworked anyway.

 

TBH I feel the same. I personally don't see why Virtu needs distortion at all, however it seems that is what Anet wants, so that part of my post was with the spirit of compromise. Since Anet seems to really want to give distortion to Virtu, let's at least tone the durations down and see where that gets us IMO.

I am with you, I think the distortion traits and such should be re-worked as well.

My go to example for reworking a lot of Mes traits:

Willbender literally has a Minor Master that is Righteous Sprint meanwhile Mirage has a Minor Grandmaster that is Speed of Sand 

It blows my mind these two traits exist at the same time.

That this is the present timeline of GW2.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Glad you pointed this out. Not being a Mesmer main, it had not occurred to me that Virtuoso had such easier access to its Distortion. This is a huge factor in the discussion.

Also, thank you for taking the time to actually read what was posted and give correct and proper feedback.

It was refreshing.

 

Thank you and NP. It is these types of subtleties that can go unnoticed when people talk of frustrations and balance, which, is no one's fault. Imagine keeping up with all of the changes from core GW2 until now? Just no lol. I could not do it. 

FWIW I think a lot of good discussion has been had here, but also a lot of misunderstandings.

And yes I agree too, it is a huge factor because I think giving virtu's such easy access to distortion really was the "Game changer", at least for me. It's the first Mesmer class able to pop core distortion out of combat, and there's no way to "deny" it.

By that I mean, I play Power Mirage, so I need my clones up to really get things going, however if a Willbender or X -mobile/burst class rushes me, I am essentially forced like 1-3 seconds behind my distortion. So as a Virtu, all their daggers would (or should) be up, so use distortion, now room to breathe. That's the end of it.

As Mirage, I would have to dodge, then blink away 99% of the time first, blink or jaunt at least, then I would need 1-2 more clones now to fully maximize distortion. We are talking both re-positioning and using multiple skills because you can't just generate clones freely, at least not always. You need to sacrifice targeted only abilities like using Mirror Image if you want instant access to clones, or sacrifice phantasm abilities if you want delayed clones.

 

( ^^Also note, as a Mirage, I always have the privilege of being able to dodge at any time I want, no matter what, so on any other class if they get CC'd first, doesn't matter if they have 2 dodges now or 500, they effectively have 0 dodges for as long as they are CC'd. Another subtlety among the classes)

 

This 1-3 sec lag due to being blitzed, or rushed, is a legit deny tactic against "old school" mes, because you can put pressure in their clone generation, but agains't virtu, there are no clones, so players can't dictate the Mesmer's resource management anymore. This mattters IMO, and speaks to the compounding problem you spoke of above, which I also agree with. Too many compounding mechanics among the newer classes and it's causing a lot of chaos.

 

Now keep in mind, I could of course burn my distortion with 1-2 clones, but each clone is one sec gained or lost, and the Mesmer has a hidden trait, where they always count as a clone, so that is why "base" distortion is always one sec for Mes talk because even if no clones are up, they will still get one sec invul from their distortion. Again always important to note, because core distortion isn't free, and traditional mes always has to sacrifice for it. Always looking around 2-3 abilities and/or some variation of linked traits (like mesmers get a trait in dueling that creates one clone when they dodge, and it is also again, in combat only)

 

For comparisons sake, in pvp, literally we are looking at team fights being decided in 1-5 second moments. Team fights matter because for most "AFKers" they decide whether to afk or not based on the first team fight, especially if that first team fight becomes a stomp. It's very easy to snowball an entire pvp match this way and I've seen it happen many many times. The most consistent way to trigger it is to have 2 experienced pvpers (like think mes+rev or thief+rev, or rev+wb) pick on the weakest enemy and/or newest player on opposing team. Within 5secs during any team fight, those 2 can focus and beatdown the weak 1, and then they can just +2 every other fight, which means they capture mid, and now those 2 classes can both go far or split, and then they can repeat this cycle for the next team fight.

 

If the opposing player doesn't have a way to deal with that, or their team can't effectively counter/pick up the slack elsewhere (this is why we rotate and/or go far, to split up powerful mid parties) then that is literally the end of the match right there, because that outcome is almost always going to happen again, even if no one AFK's. (but ppl who usually AFK kinda of instinctively sense this dynamic happening, and then immediately give into despair)    

 

In 2v2 you can isolate this and really see which classes are what, hence the bruiser classes rising to the top in that meta, and furthermore in 3v3 you can really get a sense of which classes work best together in teams because most team fights are happening around the 3v3 side (because roamers and side noders are hopping in and out constantly, so that's the other 2)

 

This is not so much a problem for MAT's IMO rather, solo/duo queue (hence everyone's hatred for duo queue, as there are obscene strategies two ppl can employ if they effectively communicate) but keep in mind, solo/duo queue IMO by far see the most pvp play. That is where everyone is most of the time in regards to pvp.

 

Long post sorry lol but GW2 is 10yrs old now, and there are now 3 elites for each of the 9 classes, all with their own traitlines and mechanics, compounded with the core mechanics of the core trait lines. Now all of this is interacting with each other lol. Yeah, it's a lot.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Kodama.6453]

11 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Everything Ranger - Druid gained nothing but heals & cleanses, Soulbeast & Untamed gained defenses that can be chained into short lived invuln-like status through many blocks/evades/ect , but they were granted no actual invulnerability.

Untamed's healing skill, perilous gift, is really close to invuln, tho.

You don't take power or condition damage during it and if your pet is unleashed when casting it, it even grants you stability to ignore CC. Not actual invuln, but all the components are there: no damage taken and you can ignore one CC at least (and there are several other stability sources to make it even less likely to get CCed).