Why is this game so antagonistic towards organized group content?

[Obtena.7952]

14 hours ago, Gatzy.1043 said:

The correlation between bad stats and bad build and not knowing how to play the game is extremely high. not all players with correct setups are good, but virtually all players with bad setups are bad.
 

How can you say this? Filtering obviously inexperienced or lazy players by being able to inspect would absolutely reduce risk.

Maybe, but this doesn't change my point. Regardless of what your criteria are for determining who you want to play with, there isn't any reason for Anet to put a 'filter' in the game specifically for your criteria to help you build teams based on that criteria ... because it's not needed ... and ESPECIALLY if that filter is going to enable people to be at risk for abuse. Specifically, an inspect feature as a player filtering function isn't needed for you to play with people based on build criteria to succeed in the game. 

I mean ... somehow people have been playing this game for 10 years and creating teams with people they want to play with. There is definitely no need for this feature to exist. At the 'want' level, it's a stretch to believe this is high on player's list. 

More to the point of the thread though ... the only people that create the feeling of antagonism in the game group content are the people that DON'T embrace the fundamental design of the encounters in the first place. In otherwords, the antagonism comes from people that apply restrictive criteria, including 'build' and 'gear' criteria, in a public setting like a PUG, then expect their teams to somehow automatically exclude people they don't want to team with. That player imposed because the game most CERTAINLY does not impose these criteria on players by its encounter design. These criteria are just self-imposed exclusivity in a game designed to be overwhelmingly inclusive. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[BumboJumbo.1308]

I'm going to get confused faces for this but does it really matter if 1 or 2 (or even 5) people "leeches" off of a normal strike? 

I mean even if a couple of people are new to a normal strike you can always chat spam to get them away from group if they have individual red circles or red/blue borders on their screen.

Plus it gets more people that haven't done strikes to get more comfortable with the content.

For raids/fractals or cms I can 100% understand people wanting a gear inspect or a way to know if someone knows the mechanics. Having one person mess up could mean the party/squad wipes, and then having to explain the encounter can be extremely annoying.

[Xerac.1542]

27 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I'm going to get confused faces for this but does it really matter if 1 or 2 (or even 5) people "leeches" off of a normal strike? 

[...] 

For raids/fractals or cms I can 100% understand people wanting a gear inspect or a way to know if someone knows the mechanics. Having one person mess up could mean the party/squad wipes, and then having to explain the encounter can be extremely annoying.

Same goes for normal strikes or any content actually. 

 

If I join a 250 LI/kp normal mode strike I don't want to pick up ppl every other second because they stand in/off stack or whatever. I join those groups because I want a quick, clean run and not waste time on multiple pulls. 

 

I do see and understand the need to teach new players and if I got the mood and time to do so I join beginner groups. But noone is entitled to get a carry just because it is a normal mode strike. 

Everyone with kp started as someone without it and made it through. 

[BumboJumbo.1308]

28 minutes ago, Xerac.1542 said:

Same goes for normal strikes or any content actually. 

 

If I join a 250 LI/kp normal mode strike I don't want to pick up ppl every other second because they stand in/off stack or whatever. I join those groups because I want a quick, clean run and not waste time on multiple pulls. 

 

I do see and understand the need to teach new players and if I got the mood and time to do so I join beginner groups. But noone is entitled to get a carry just because it is a normal mode strike. 

Everyone with kp started as someone without it and made it through. 

At that point why not round up all the people that meet your criteria and make a guild?

But other than that, thank you for the response

[Xerac.1542]

8 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

At that point why not round up all the people that meet your criteria and make a guild?

But other than that, thank you for the response

Attention sarcasm warning 

You mean like a raiding guild?! That's an awesome idea. 

Maybe the next step is to use a second guild slot to start a guild that focuses on teaching newer players the mechanics of raids/strikes/fractals, so they can join this guild to learn in a dedicated environment and gather kp to later join kp groups on lfg if they want to. 

 

On serious note: 

Obviously that's possible. But also there is a lfg tool with a free text to put in whatever you want for a reason. It is actually fun to play with different people each week. 

[BumboJumbo.1308]

1 hour ago, Xerac.1542 said:

Attention sarcasm warning 

You mean like a raiding guild?! That's an awesome idea. 

Maybe the next step is to use a second guild slot to start a guild that focuses on teaching newer players the mechanics of raids/strikes/fractals, so they can join this guild to learn in a dedicated environment and gather kp to later join kp groups on lfg if they want to. 

 

On serious note: 

Obviously that's possible. But also there is a lfg tool with a free text to put in whatever you want for a reason. It is actually fun to play with different people each week. 

Assuming we're talking about normal strikes only:

My point is that if you badly want to play with people that are similar to you and want that speedrun/clean run, then why not just create or join a guild group with those people?

By using the lfg you're gambling on the type of player you're going to get despite the kill proof. And if the kill proof is high (10+) or absurdly high (250) you might as well stick to finding people in a guild. 

Having atleast 1 newer player join a group is a positive for everyone. More players = more strikes and more people to play with that'll become more skillful.

[Xerac.1542]

4 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Assuming we're talking about normal strikes [...] 

Snipped to save space. 

 

Okay, normal strikes only :

I still wanna pug them with people who have similar kp amounts to me if I feel like that, or if I got the mood I join groups with Ne requierements because those are sometimes even faster than kp groups or just more fun, because they spark more interaction. 

I a not going to do guild runs because of my schedule so whatever, not going to dive deeper into that topic. 

 

I still see the point in teaching players mechanics or allow them into strikes, but nobody is keeping them out. Does it hurt player A if I list an lfg saying "ibs5+eod 250kp/li"?  I can't imagine how, because anyone can put up a lfg. 

 

But please explain to my why people who want to play any way they want should be obliged to take somebody not fitting to their group with them? I can't wrap my head around that premise. If we are a hypothetical group of 9 players that cleared, let's say, WoJ 100 times I don't want to waste 9 ppls time to explain all the mechanics again, get screwed by someone running around with their chain, not stacking green or whatever. 

The outcome in my opinion would be 9 ppl kill the boss, 1 player gets a free kill and is none the wiser than before. 

 

Looking forward to more insight from your pov! 

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I'm going to get confused faces for this but does it really matter if 1 or 2 (or even 5) people "leeches" off of a normal strike? 

I mean even if a couple of people are new to a normal strike you can always chat spam to get them away from group if they have individual red circles or red/blue borders on their screen.

Plus it gets more people that haven't done strikes to get more comfortable with the content.

For raids/fractals or cms I can 100% understand people wanting a gear inspect or a way to know if someone knows the mechanics. Having one person mess up could mean the party/squad wipes, and then having to explain the encounter can be extremely annoying.

This is going to blow people's minds but ... you touch on something very true this game (and to the benefit and the players)

In many other games, the boundary of what is 'leeching' or not is obvious because the threshold for success tends to be very gear/build driven. It's obvious when undergeared/underbuilt players get carried. People are expecting this as some sort of general trend in MMO's but in GW2, what is 'leeching' is less obvious because being successful in content has much less to do with gear/build and more to do with actual knowledge of encounter and playing the game. 

So the answer to your question; No, it doesn't really matter if some people 'leech' in most endgame content. Even if it does matter to people, they STILL don't need an inspect function to filter players for performance, just like no one else gets in-game features for other characteristics they want to filter players for building their teams.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[BumboJumbo.1308]

3 hours ago, Xerac.1542 said:

Okay, normal strikes only :

Saved space.

Fair point

[Noah Salazar.5430]

On 12/19/2022 at 2:05 AM, Gatzy.1043 said:

The party/squad and LFG features are worse than what other games have had for a decade. Why is there no party leader? Why does everyone in a party have full control over it? Why do you need to pay 300 gold for the privilege of sorting people into subgroups, or placing markers on the ground? Why is there no way to mark or self-mark as quick/alac/heal to facilitate party organization?

and the big one: Why is there no inspect?

1. Quality check

mmo is long term game, asuming you can earn 20g per h by fishing or open word meta it's 15h

if you play 3h per day, you schold be able to buy commander tag in 5-7d

Alternativly you can buy commander tag for 10$+4h of 20g farm 

I agree tho it should cost 150-200g to make it more accessible

 

2. Ther is gear inspection outside of game

on discord by bots by typing !!character gear or /character gear, despend what bot discord server is  using

(bot just links your provided api, that you gived permision to inspect your gear)

 

@Gatzy.1043

I hope i anwasred you properly, you can ignore rest ppl in this topic, as thay using emotion insted of logic

 

for more specific grouping/lfg, your using outside game tools

for rest of ppl, thay will hurt themself or others insted, so it's better when thinks are hidden, and unhidden for people that deserves it

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Gatzy.1043]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So the answer to your question; No, it doesn't really matter if some people 'leech' in most endgame content. Even if it does matter to people, they STILL don't need an inspect function to filter players for performance, just like no one else gets in-game features for other characteristics they want to filter players for building their teams.

"you are obligated to carry kitten players"

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Almost all the problems with group content in this game come down to the LFG tool being trash and making it hard for players to actually find anything. I promise you there's at least 10x more things going on than you ever see in LFG, but you probably miss the majority of them since you can't stare at all categories 24/7, and the lack of any automated group finder means aggressively at LFG for 15+mins is your only choice.

 

Dwayna forbid you try to do anything that is super rare (ike DRMs, Cold War, Forging Steel, and so on..). You get to sit in the LFG for a whole hour or two at least once a week.

 

I don't even walk to talk about the raid LFG which is just an online store now.

 

Gear, roles and so on can be worked out. Players have actually become really good at the game after Dragon's End, often come with multiple builds even in PUGs, and tend to do at least 10k real-world DPS. I haven't had problems clearing anything with random players in a very long time due to powercreep and a general increase in skill in the playerbase in the last year especially.

 

Its hardly the biggest issue affecting the game anymore, not like poor mechanics like a disorganised and featureless LFG tool, no auto-grouping, private/public instanced content separation, emboldened mode only working on one wing, killproof shenanigans and so on and so forth in a very long list.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Cyninja.2954]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Assuming we're talking about normal strikes only:

My point is that if you badly want to play with people that are similar to you and want that speedrun/clean run, then why not just create or join a guild group with those people?

By using the lfg you're gambling on the type of player you're going to get despite the kill proof. And if the kill proof is high (10+) or absurdly high (250) you might as well stick to finding people in a guild. 

and many players do that. What you are seeing on the LFG is the remainder which for whatever reason decide to PUG content. In fact, many of the very engaged players PUG content just for fun, or trying things out (like new builds). It might b hard to imagine, but some players actually enjoy the raid and strike content in this game beyond 1 clear per week.

Experienced players have just as much a right to make use of the LFG as inexperienced players.

If EVERY experienced players decided to stick to statics and guilds, there would be absolutely no groups for inexperienced players besides inexperienced groups. Given the high barrier to self organize and actually start a group, this would lead to far less groups on the LFG.

On 12/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Having atleast 1 newer player join a group is a positive for everyone. More players = more strikes and more people to play with that'll become more skillful.

No, it's not. Having 1 or more players who are inexperienced does not in any way mean it is a net positive. It can be, but it can just as well create incorrect expectations. Who guarantees that those players don't get used to getting carried? It certainly hasn't worked for open world content, has it?

The issue here is: failure IS something which is part of the learning process. Having no failure state directly affects an individuals desire or strive to improve but in a negative way. After all, if success is guaranteed, why improve?

Edited December 23, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

36 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No, it's not. Having 1 or more players who are inexperienced does not in any way mean it is a net positive. It can be, but it can just as well create incorrect expectations. Who guarantees that those players don't get used to getting carried? It certainly hasn't worked for open world content, has it?

The issue here is: failure IS something which is part of the learning process. Having no failure state directly affects an individuals desire or strive to improve but in a negative way. After all, if success is guaranteed, why improve?

If you are not going to teach another player in instance content its fair enought .

But don't try to mess with other modes like OW , by implanting Content the majority dont like, in order to get rdy for the Raids.

You should have taught that 1 guy instead , if you want more Raiders

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Cyninja.2954]

2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

If you are not going to teach another player in instance content its fair enought .

But don't try to mess with other modes like OW , by implanting Content the majority dont like, in order to get to the Raids.

You have no proof that the "majority" don't like something you personally might dislike.

Players in open world content are a wide mix of players from all game modes and content. Stop assuming that everyone in open world content agrees with your personal preference.

2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

You should have taught that 1 guy instead

 

and there are places where experienced players do that, constantly. So your point goes out the window once again.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You have no proof that the "majority" don't like something you personally might dislike.

Players in open world content are a wide mix of players from all game modes and content. Stop assuming that everyone in open world content agrees with your personal preference.

and there are places where experienced players do that, constantly. So your point goes out the window once again.

Teach that one person instead , rather than hoping that you creat more raiders from thin air.

Dont destroy our content ,otherwise lets stop the instance version and focus on hardcore/easy OW events

Edited December 23, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Teach that one person instead , rather than hoping that you creat more raiders from thin air.

Dont destroy our content

 

Again, until you understand that it's not "your content", there is nothing further to discuss.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Again, until you understand that it's not "your content", there is nothing further to discuss.

And you should focus that 1 newer guy instead . Thats why you dont have new guys in istance contentc over 10 years

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

And you should focus that 1 newer guy instead . Thats why you dont have new guys in istance contentc over 10 years

 

Again not true and most recent content updates have been more focused on delivering a more varied amount of content to the game than before, so it seems the developers disagree with your take as well.

 

Learn to live with it or leave, that's your choice.

[The Boz.2038]

4 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Teach that one person instead , rather than hoping that you creat more raiders from thin air.

Dont destroy our content ,otherwise lets stop the instance version and focus on hardcore/easy OW events

The one person is more than welcome to join any group on LFG, discord, forum, or other with the labels "newbies welcome", "training run", "PUG progression", or similar.
Don't try to sneak into "clears" looking for free rides and hoping nobody notices and comments, and then, when they inevitably do, accuse them of being """"toxic"""".

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Again not true and most recent content updates have been more focused on delivering a more varied amount of content to the game than before, so it seems the developers disagree with your take as well.

 

Learn to live with it or leave, that's your choice.

Wel li could say with same with you hoping them to release new raids rather than strikes .

And that happened becaue you didnt teach that 1 new guy 😛

 

Well gl i guess 😛

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Wel li could say with same with you hoping them to release new raids rather than strikes .

And that happened becaue you didnt teach that 1 new guy 😛

 

Well gl i guess 😛

 

I'm perfectly happy with their approach to strikes and the CMs. You might noticed I have all the CMs done, am raiding and happy to do Dragon's End occasionally. I'm not the one on the forums whining about the game changing.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

14 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The one person is more than welcome to join any group on LFG, discord, forum, or other with the labels "newbies welcome", "training run", "PUG progression", or similar.
Don't try to sneak into "clears" looking for free rides and hoping nobody notices and comments, and then, when they inevitably do, accuse them of being """"toxic"""".

And if 1000 OW people will be created in the future to want to try Instance content , they will face the same loop/fate like the past people or the 1x that shouldnt be carried .

You havent fixed the baseline issues (infostactures -auto lfg ) .

 

I wouldnt like the same raiders telling them to "create your own group or get out" . I prefer those 10-15 people to try another game 😛

Edited December 23, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Cyninja.2954]

6 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

And if 1000 OW people will be created in the future to want to try Instance content , they will face the same loop/fate like the past people or the 1x that shouldnt be carried .

You havent fixed the baseline issues (infostactures -auto lfg ) .

 

I wouldnt like the same raiders telling them to "create your own group or get out" . I prefer those 10-15 people to try another game 😛

Good news then, the developers have taken the years of complaining about the game not teaching players properly to heart and have implemented steps to ensure players developer a baseline competency in this game, for example via the EoD story missions and the more challenging open world content in EoD, primarily the Dragon's End map.

So you see, you don't need raiders to tell you to get better any more, you get the developers telling you that with the content they are adding to the game.

You've been on your nonsense loop for years now. Meanwhile new players, especially this year, have been joining the game, leaving the game, entering raids, entering fractals, playing the game and achieving things you haven't even touched. The latest raid tournament held by Sneb and Teapot had the most teams to sign up ever (28 teams in total, and that's players who are willing to participate in a tournament, not only clear the content).

Aren't you growing tired of your obviously not representative view at this point?

Edited December 23, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Good news then, the developers have taken the years of complaining about the game not teaching players properly to heart and have implemented steps to ensure players developer a baseline competency in this game, for example via the EoD story missions and the more challenging open world content in EoD, primarily the Dragon's End map.

So you see, you don't need raiders to tell you to get better any more, you get the developers telling you that with the content they are adding to the game.

You've been on your nonsense loop for years now. Meanwhile new players, especially this year, have been joining the game, leaving the game, entering raids, entering fractals, playing the game and achieving things you haven't even touched. The latest raid tournament held by Sneb and Teapot had the most teams to sign up ever (28 teams in total, and that's players who are willing to participate in a tournament, not only clear the content).

Aren't you growing tired of your obviously not representative view at this point?

Good news for you .

The majority of the casuals didnt have a problem with Soo won , but wanted a 15% HP reduction  , that means people where taugst very nicly the mechanics over the year . They didnt have  aproblem understanding each mechanic

The company didnt deny 1x new raider each time from beeing taught , because he might be "carried" as you said.

 

So fix your issues that cost you future Raiders  , before touching my casuals

Edited December 23, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940