Does the Dream exist even without the Pale Tree?

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

Was wondering if the Dream is independent from the Pale Tree. Or if it exists because of the Pale Tree? We know the Pale Tree doesn't really control the Dream, on the other hand, sylvari outside the Pale Tree (the only one we know of so far is Malyck) don't seem to experience the Dream.

Thanks!

Edited January 24, 2023 by TheLadyOfTheRings.9148

[Telgum.6071]

Ah, a fellow sylvari enjoyer.

It seems there is a clear connection between the Dream, the Pale Tree and the sylvari born from the Pale Tree. The Dream seems to be indeed independet of the Pale Tree.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

The Pale Tree says that she is not the creator nor controller of the Dream, but merely its "caretaker". Similarly, for HoT-spoilers:

Spoiler

Mordremoth as well does not seem to be the origin of either Dream or Nightmare, but has a connection to both (while Pale Tree only has a connection to the Dream) and is able to manipulate them slightly. Early HoT writing drafts planted Mordremoth as the origin of the Nightmare but this appears to be changed mid-development, as in early version all Nightmare Courtiers were instantly following Mordremoth, while in the final version many Courtiers are rebelling against Mordremoth too, and even Mordrem Guard can revert to their old self if separated from the whispers.

Even of Mordrem, not counting Mordrem Guard, the only one shown to hold a connection to the Dream or Nightmare is the Shadow of the Dragon - and that's only based on the sylvari tutorial, so it might not be reflective of the Season 2 version of the Shadow of the Dragon which, for all we know, is merely a champion Mordremoth created in copying the Dream version from the tutorial. So like Malyck, it isn't a default connection just because Mordremoth/Pale Tree has a connection.

Additionally, in one of the sylvari storylines, you have the White Stag, who is connected to the Dream of Dreams but is not tied to the sylvari in any form.

[DarcShriek.5829]

Does the dream exist anymore with the dragons defeated?

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

Does the dream exist anymore with the dragons defeated?

I happen to believe it's independent of the dragons, as @Konig Des Todes.2086's post indicated.

As for what the Dream actually is, I think it's an independent phenomenon that sylvari possess a uniquely strong link to. The final story chapter of HoT demonstrates that non-sylvari can at least access the Dream (if only to pass through it somehow on the way to getting inside Mordremoth's mind). I think the Dream would still exist even if all sylvari disappeared, there'd just be nobody to access or populate it with their consciousness.

[goodberry.8913]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:23 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Additionally, in one of the sylvari storylines, you have the White Stag, who is connected to the Dream of Dreams but is not tied to the sylvari in any form.

The white stag is really cool. Exploring the dream more and finding new non-sylvari characters/creatures connected to it would be neat.

Is there any indication how old the dream and nightmare are?