Raids are worth developing

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Because it should be obvious to people like the OP that 'raids being worth' developing is not JUST about the fact they want them

It's not "just about the fact they want them". Again, did you read OP? Because if you did then maybe you should respond with what he said in mind instead of repeating what boils down to empty "it's about money" when reasonably you don't really have anything to say in that regard because you have no real insight into that.

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what do they mean 'worth it'?

Again, read what OP said and it should be clear what "worth it' means here, because pretty sure he explained the concept behind that wording? Like... what exactly is not clear about that?

Edited March 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Again, did you read OP?

Yes I read it. Basically "LOTS" of people do it every week, so he concludes it's worth it. Also, concluding that raids ahve typical characteristics of any sustainable MMO content. That's a very simplistic assessment. The question is if you read MY posts, because I did address the points he has.

There is nothing 'empty' about recognizing what is 'worth' being in the game is money ... because it is, and the OP happily dodges the point every time he makes a 'I want Raids' thread. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes I read it. basically "LOTS" of people do it, so he concludes it's worth it. That's a very simplistic assessment. 

No, basically if you want to have a discussion about anything here, you could stop asking "what does he think worth it means" when he already descirbed what "worth" he's talking about here. Then you can comment directly on what was said about that "worth" instead of simplifying it by yourself just to have an opportunity to call it "a very simplistic assessment".
In other words, you're absolutely free to disagree with whatever you want, but for now you're still skirting around what he said just to ask about things that were -I think fairly clearly- explained.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758
typo

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, basically if you want to have a discussion about anything here, you could stop asking "what does he think worth it means" when he already descirbe what "worth" he's talking about here.

Yeah I did that. Concluding raids are 'worth it' because they demonstrate (in his opinion), characteristics of any good MMO content is a simplistic assessment. 

Again, if you think we can exclude facts or use opinions as a basis for 'worth' (which includes if they are ALSO worth it for Anet) this isn't a discussion at all. It's just people banging a drum about what they want and passing that off as a contrived conclusion raids have 'worth' to be redeveloped. My posts aren't a disagreement about worth. It's about pointing out that the OP consistently ignores factors and historical events that are indicative to whether raids are 'worth' being in the game or not. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

40 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah I did that. Concluding raids are 'worth it' because they demonstrate (in his opinion), characteristics of any good MMO content is a simplistic assessment. 

Again, if you think we can exclude facts about what makes raids worth it (which includes if they are ALSO worth it for Anet) this isn't a discussion at all. It's just people banging a drum about what they want. 

Who's excluding them? How? When? What point can YOU make about any content being worth monetarily for anet?

In the edit of your previous post you're also writing this:

45 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is nothing 'empty' about recognizing what is 'worth' being in the game is money

even though on the previous page you clearly understand that...

On 3/13/2023 at 5:45 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, there are LOTS of factors that go into determining the 'worthiness' of developing a specific kind of content

So are you trying to limit worthiness to money here or do you understand it's not just about money?

 

I don't know what you're not understanding here, seeing how you repeatedly asked about "what do they mean when they say 'worth'":

On 3/13/2023 at 3:54 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, when people say it's 'worth' it to develop more raids, what do they mean?

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what do they mean 'worth it'?

Is OP's post not clear what they mean when they say "it's worth it"? Do you not understand content's "worth" can be judged by more than just direct income it generates? I'm sure you do, considering the above quoted post of yours from the previous page where you literally write about "lots of factors going into detrermining the worthiness". And yet... you're skipping everything and defaulting into "but people don't understand moneyz". That's false, people do undestand what you mean by repeating "but money", they just talk about a broader take on content worthiness than the direct income you seemingly try to hug so closely in every other post.

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

45 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't know what you're not understanding here

Probably because there is no misunderstanding. The OP can't simply justify raid 'worth' in game because of his self-focused, opinion-based assessment while ignoring all the other factors that contribute to evaluating it's worthiness, including the value raids have (or NOT have) for Anet. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You don't know because there is no misunderstanding. The OP can't simply justify raid 'worth' in game because of his self-focused, opinion-based assessment while ignoring all the other factors that contribute to evaluating it's worthiness, including the value raids have for Anet. 

Yet you're not talking about any factor other than money and then keep asking what they mean? when they already explained what they mean.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yet you're not talking about any factor other than money and then keep asking what they mean? when they already explained what they mean.

I don't need to because the point is that the OP ignores any factor that doesn't support his own position raids are worth it. Seems that if he believes we ignore the reasons raids are not worth it ... all the sudden they are. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't need to talk about any other factor because the point is that the OP ignores those that don't support his own position raids are worth it. 

You don't need to anything, but at that point your repeated question about "what they mean when they say worth" simply doesn't make any sense, considering you understand what they mean, as well as you understand that "there are LOTS of factors that go into determining the 'worthiness' of developing a specific kind of content". In other words, pretty sure OP isn't dodging here, but you are.

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You don't need to anything, but at that point your repeated question about "what they mean when they say worth" simply doesn't make any sense, considering you understand what they mean, as well as you understand that "there are LOTS of factors that go into determining the 'worthiness' of developing a specific kind of content".

OP is ignoring factors in assessing raid worthiness that are important and relevant to the question of if raids are worthy for development and does so continuously.  🤷‍♂️

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OP is ignoring factors in assessing raid worthiness that are important and relevant to the question of if raids are worthy for development and does so continuously. Not sure what else there is to say. If you seek an argument about something, I doubt you will find it here. 

Where is he ignoring it? He simply presents why x content can be worth outside of direct cash influx, you keep clenching despite being unable to say anything specific since you have 0 information about it. You clearly have no intention to talk about anything here, but instead do the usual "skirting right outside of people's posts" and if that wasn't clear even on the previous page (but it was), it became rather clear after you dodged the whole post above:

with a rather dismissive response of "there's no misunderstanding" despite repeatedly asking "what they mean when they say it's worth it". If there's no misunderstanding about anything, why are you repeatedly asking about something you... apparently -according to your current stance- understand? Is it because you don't want to discuss it, but just want to keep repeating the same thing you basically have no access to in the first place? Because for now that's exactly how it looks like.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

OP isn't ignoring anything, but presents why x content can be worth outside of direct cash influx you keep clenching despite being unable to say anything specific since you have 0 information about it.

Well, I guess if you want to think that, you can. OP continually makes the case Anet should develop raids for whatever reasons he can think of. Decides the reasons they don't shouldn't be talked about. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I guess if you want to think that, you can. OP continually makes the case Anet should develop raids for whatever reasons he can think of. Decides the reasons they don't shouldn't be talked about. 

And you continually don't respond to anything, but instead keep asking the same question he already answered, just to then say there's no misunderstanding on your part. So, again, what's the point of that repeated question? 🤔  (because this is another thing you keep dodging for... quite a while now)

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And you continually don't respond to anything, but instead keep asking the same question he already answered, just to then say there's no misunderstanding on your part. So, again, what's the point of that repeated question? 🤔 

That's true, I don't respond to your attempts to argue over some question, because my point isn't about the details of any particular reason for or against raids. It's simply to point out there is more to determining the 'worth' of raids outside of the shallow assessment the OP gives. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That's true, I don't respond to your attempts to argue, because my point isn'tabout the details of any particular reason for or against raids. It's simply to make sure people understand there is more to determining the 'worth' of raids outside of the shallow assessment the OP gives. 

These are not attempts to argue, these are direct responses to what you wrote. In this case it's a direct response to your repeated question you apparently -at least that's what you claim now- know answer to. So what's the point of that question when you understand what "worthiness" they're talking about?

[Obtena.7952]

47 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

These are not attempts to argue, these are direct responses to what you wrote. In this case it's a direct response to your repeated question you apparently -at least that's what you claim now- know answer to. So what's the point of that question when you understand what "worthiness" they're talking about?

I guess rhetorical questions aren't part of your vocabulary when making a point. You are literally asking me what the point of questioning the OP's claims about 'worthiness' is by asking him what he means by 'worthiness', especially when it's obvious he is defining worthiness so that it only includes reasons that make them appear worthy.  😐

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I guess rhetorical questions aren't part of your vocabulary when making a point. 

They are, the issue with your repeated question is that it didn't show anything. 🤷‍♂️

Your consistent dodging about, well, everything is enough of an answer though.

 

e: Nice ninja edit, when what I quoted above was all you wrote. 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You are literally asking me what the point of questioning the OP's claims about 'worthiness' is by asking him what he means by 'worthiness', especially when it's obvious he is defining worthiness so that it only includes reasons that make them appear worthy.  😐

Or -what should be clear considering you apparently understand "there are LOTS of factors that go into determining the 'worthiness' of developing a specific kind of content"- OP says there are reasons to consider content being worth it other than the direct monetary gain from it and discusses why it's worth developing? 🙄 Something you're appartently unable to discuss, since despite saying you understand there are a lot of factors, all you constantly do in this thread is default into direct monetary value (which, again, is something you have 0 idea about in this context) while completely disregarding anything else.

Funnily enough it goes back to this question you already avoided above (and which you'll continue avoiding since, as mentioned multiple times, including in this post, you have 0 insight into that):

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Who's excluding them? How? When? What point can YOU make about any content being worth monetarily for anet?

If you want to keep repeating "but it's about money!" then no content is worth developing, perhaps other than gemstore skins people can directly pay for. This is as much of an "'argument"" here as it is for any other content, so... it pretty much isn't one. You're repeating nothingness and that's also what you're basing it on.

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

especially considering those same reasons are likely still relevant from when they decided to stop developing them 3 years ago. 👍

Baseless, considering the moves they made, directed at bridging other content into raids during this time. 🤷‍♂️

(aaand another edit which made what I quoted above disappear 🤨)

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't need to because the point is that the OP ignores any factor that doesn't support his own position raids are worth it. Seems that if he believes we ignore the reasons raids are not worth it ... all the sudden they are. 

So all Anet should ever produce anymore is gemstore items since those are the only ones that pay for themselfs?

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

So all Anet should ever produce anymore is gemstore items since those are the only ones that pay for themselfs?

I don't know ... maybe they could. It simply depends on what content people are willing to settle for to continue supporting the game. I don't have any data that suggests one way or the other but it does appear Anet has found a formula for game content development that IMPLIES what you are suggesting wouldn't work. 

What I do know is that ... if we want to discuss raids being 'worth' developed (and not just pretend like it's a given fact they are), it's not JUST a function of the reasons the OP cherrypicked to make the claim that they are worthy. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Linken.6345]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't know ... maybe they could. It simply depends on what content people are willing to settle for to continue supporting the game. I don't have any data that suggests one way or the other. 

What I do know is that ... if we want to discuss raids being 'worth' developed (and not just pretend like it's a given fact), it's NOT just a function of the things the OP cherrypicked to make the claim that they are. 

Cant say I disagree with the op have played the fractals and raids (now strike is creeping up on it) more times then any of the core, expansion or living world story episodes so yea.

Money for developer time spent they got me hocked longer then any of the other things they have done.

I bet you Im not the only one.

And yea I might not spend cash (outside of expansions) but I do gold to gems so the ones who do spend cash to get gold think its worth it to them to buy it.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Cant say I disagree with the op have played the fractals and raids (now strike is creeping up on it) more times then any of the core, expansion or living world story episodes so yea.

Money for developer time spent they got me hocked longer then any of the other things they have done.

I bet you Im not the only one.

And yea I might not spend cash (outside of expansions) but I do gold to gems so the ones who do spend cash to get gold think its worth it to them to buy it.

OK I'm not disagreeing with the fact that some people think it's worth it. I'm disagreeing with the idea that raids being worth it is just based on solely player's opinions that it is. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What I do know is that ... if we want to discuss raids being 'worth' developed (and not just pretend like it's a given fact they are), it's not JUST a function of the reasons the OP cherrypicked to make the claim that they are worthy. 

If you want to discuss anything being "worth" developed, you'd need to stop repeating "but money", which -again- is something you have 0 insight into and ""fits"" here as much as it fits in context of literally any other content. Complaining about cherrypicking while cherrypicking something you have no idea about doesn't remotely look like an attempt to have any discussion. Similarly to claiming "the reasons are likely the same they were 3 years ago" which conveniently forgets about what was released in that time.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If you want to discuss anything being "worth" developed, you'd need to stop repeating "but money", which -again- is something you have 0 insight into and ""fits"" here as much as it fits in context of literally any other content. Complaining about cherrypicking while cherrypicking something you have no idea about doesn't remotely look like an attempt to have any discussion. Similarly to claiming "the reasons are likely the same they were 3 years ago" which conveniently forgets about what was released in that time.

That doesn't make sense. Obviously 'money' is a factor in what Anet considers worth delivering as content to players. Only a basic level of business savvy is needed to state this typical and obvious factor in of any business making decisions about what to offer to customers. I don't have insight? That's not true ... we ALL have enough insight to know there ARE factors that resulted in Anet stopping raid development over 3 years ago. Why does anyone think those factors not relevant today?

You continually claim I shouldn't be pointing out the fact that the OP doesn't consider factors, like money, to conclude if raids are worth developing. Why?  People think raids are worth it? That's not what an objective review of the game history indicates. You are right ... there IS no discussion here, especially considering the OP doesn't want to acknowledge there ARE reasons raids are not worth developing. As I already said ... this thread is just a ruse for the OP to get something he wants. 

So again, the problem here isn't that I don't have 'insight' ... the problem here is people passing off their opinions and limited, anecdotal evidence as proof that raids are 'worth' developing when there have been clear indications they aren't. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. Obviously 'money' is a factor in what Anet considers worth delivering as content to players.

Nobody says it's not.

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't have insight? That's not true ... we ALL have enough insight to know there ARE factors that resulted in Anet stopping raid development over 3 years ago. 

You have insight into what content generates what amount of money? Ok, share.
As for "factors stopping raid developmnet over 3 years ago", I already responded to that bit in the post above before you deleted it from your post, where you tried to baselessly claim probably nothing changed.

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You continually claim I shouldn't be pointing out the fact that the OP doesn't consider factors, like money, to conclude if raids are worth developing.

Am I? Where?

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You have insight into what content generates what amount of money? 

No I don't ... and I didn't claim I did. I simply expressed the fact that the OP only focuses on factors that indicates raids are worth it and continually ignores the ones that could indicate it's not, obviously with the intent to 'prove' raids should be brought back. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952