gunflame needs to pierce

[Lighter.5631]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:41 AM, Edu.6984 said:

 

The most popular version is full marauder or mixed. Anyway, what point are you trying to make here? That DH needs a nerf? 

 

 

the most popular version is berserker, also i can also say the most popular version is marauder for gunflame builds which is so much weaker then any version of true shot build, so what

i can also ask you, whats your point here, that berserker needs a nerf?

you are so funny man, first you say gunflame damage in unacceptable on a meme glass build, yet when people bring up true shot, which has the exact number multiplier. you mention the damage from a non full glass build that has 10x more survivability. 

get your argument straight.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[Sobx.1758]

There's no reason for gunflame to have pierce.

[Dr Meta.3158]

The maximum damage you can get with true shot is much lower than what you can get with gun flame.

[eXruina.4956]

26 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

There's no reason for gunflame to have pierce.

and i still believe there is no reason for gunflame to not have pierce in this regard. sorry bro i just disagree. 🤣

 

if for no other purpose than being stronger.

 

there's really no balance argument against, specially when we have broken things running about out there with easy 100% protection uptime, perma stealth, invul cycling, etc.. list goes on.

 

whats gunflame piercing compared to any of that. 🤣

 

when they actually fix the game, then and only then an argument of that capacity becomes sound.

 

 

but as the game is now? no. theres no sound realistic reason not to buff it, specially not on warrior. 🤣

Edited April 12, 2023 by eXruina.4956

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, eXruina.4956 said:

and i still believe there is no reason for gunflame to not have pierce in this regard. sorry bro i just disagree. 🤣

 

if for no other purpose than being stronger.

 

there's really no balance argument against jt, specially when we have broken things running about out there with easy 100% protection uptime, perma stealth, invul cycling, etc.. list goes on.

 

whats gunflame piercing compared to any of that. 🤣

 

when they actually fix the game, then and only then an argument of that capacity becomes sound.

 

 

but as the game is now? no. theres no sound realistic reason not to buff it. 🤣

It's a strong long range burst skill, there's your reason to not give it pierce. Yes "being stronger" is often a reason against the buffs.

[eXruina.4956]

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's a strong long range burst skill, there's your reason to not give it pierce. Yes "being stronger" is often a reason against the buffs.

its a strong enough range burst skill, only when fully invested in with 3 damage traitlines and a minimum of 2 skill slots.

 

and almost always it has to be a double tap with blood reckoning, if you don't land both hits you don't get to kill fluff, unless you're hitting 11k hp in zerk gear. *shrugs.

 

run it on a standard warrior build and it hits like fluff like everything else.

 

at the end of the day it only truly works when nothing is looking your way.

 

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes "being stronger" is often a reason against the buffs.

in that regard, its fair to argue, 100% protection uptime, invul cycling, perma stealth, abundance in teleportation, etc etc.. are reasons for nerfs, so where are they? 🙂

Edited April 12, 2023 by eXruina.4956

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

its a strong enough range burst skill, only when fully invested in with 3 damage traitlines and a minimum of 2 skill slots.

No, it's a strong enough range burst skill, period. It doesn't need to oneshoot things with whatever investment to be considered that. The fact it can also do that only adds to it and adds a reason against its pierce.

4 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

at the end of the day it only truly works when nothing is looking your way.

Even if that's what you think, slapping pierce on it doesn't address anything about that. If you think that's the problem, the proposed buff doesn't match it as a solution.

4 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

in that regard, its fair to argue, 100% protection uptime, invul cycling, perma stealth, abundance in teleportation, etc etc.. are reasons for nerfs, so where are they? 🙂

Whataboutism. If you think something's too strong, go talk about it. It's irrelevant to anything said here.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[eXruina.4956]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Whataboutism. If you think something's too strong, go talk about it. It's irrelevant to anything said here.

i am talking about it, everyone's been talking about it for years. 🤣

 

and its not whataboutism, its actually reality. 🤔

Edited April 12, 2023 by eXruina.4956

[eXruina.4956]

@Sobx.1758   lets just agree we disagree, instead of having a long winded back and forth that will really go nowhere, and achieve nothing, i just disagree with you. and you disagree with me. ^~^

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

i am talking about it, everyone's been talking about it for years. 🤣

That's great! Still as irrelevant to anything said here as it was in the previous post.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[eXruina.4956]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

That's great! Still irrelevant to anything said here.

its relevant because it shoots down any balance argument against adding piercing to gunflame, when mechanics like that are at large, simply because "why not?" when stuff like that exist.

 

and thats discounting how hard other skills in the game are actually hitting too, and with less investment.

 

so its relevant, and i say "why not?"

[Edu.6984]

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

gun flame can not one shot, unless you are severely under-geared or glass yourself.

 

I took a nearly 18k gun flame on a full ascended/legendary cele catalist. While it was not a 1 shot because I have 20k hp, not all classes are running so  much toughness and vitality, and that is not even close to be glass on under-geared.

 

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

till ignoring the fact that true shot does the same damage

 

You are still ignoring the fact that guardian does not have quick access to unblockable and 25 stacks of might. Your true shot will simply get blocked/reflected. 

 

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

while other classes, same, using 4 skills, but as instant cast damaging skills, damaging enemy spontaneously at the same time, while having teleport/stealth/range is fine,

 

Not only those classes have a lot less hp, armor, invul frames and overall survivability than warrior, most of those combos are not unblockable, are not aoe, take longer to complete most do less dmg.

 

There is a huge difference between 1 shot kill and a couple seconds kill. If you are not 1 shotting, the enemy has room to teleport away/ invul/ block/ reflect, well, not block/reflect since warrior has unblockable.... 

 

It is a big joke to compare a 11k guardian wasting a stun break and getting melee range to try to land a hammer hit that can be blocked with a warrior with about twice that HP hitting from 1200 range. You may not be familiar, but guardian does not have a healing to ignore dmg like defiant stance. 

 

 

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:57 AM, Xperiment.6923 said:

In pvp wvw I'm struggling with this build. It's crazy how often I am blocked..it takes time to set up all the triggers so a wasted shot usually  means death. Its never like the videos you see with a gunzerker 1000 yards away picking off people leisurely. I get swarmed! Also down states tend to pop up on me too...crazy! Maybe it all chalks up to me sucking but still determined.

Internet montages are BS. They NEVER show player failure. I take them about as seriously as Trump talking about his taxes...

[Edu.6984]

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

the most popular version is berserker

 

Source? Pretty much every single build website suggests marauder for roaming DH. Don't belive? Go look at Metabattle, guildGen, etc. It is quite reasonable claim that the most popular version is the one most avaiable on the most popular websites. 

 

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

i can also say the most popular version is marauder for gunflame builds which is so much weaker then any version of true shot build,

 

Except it is not. A full marauder guardian has less hp than naked warrior. A warrior has room to run full berzerker and still have enough HP, blocks and mobility to survive, while a DH running zerker can just get its true shot blocked and then get 1shotted by pretty much anyone. It does not matter if the power scaling coefficient is slightly higher, if the warrior has acess to 25 might and the guardian doesnt, the warrior will hit higher. Those 750 power do make a big difference.

 

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

can also ask you, whats your point here, that berserker needs a nerf?

 

Not berzerker as a whole, but gun flame. I consider that gun flame needs a nerf dmg wise. Could be combined with a buff to make it pierce, but the dmg needs to go down. 

 

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

yet when people bring up true shot, which has the exact number multiplier.

true shot coefficient is actually higher, go check your data. 

 

18 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

get your argument straight.

you and most guys on the warrior section are just doing some hard mental gymnastic to twist any facts in favor of buffing warrior

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Edu.6984 said:

you and most guys on the warrior section are just doing some hard mental gymnastic to twist any facts in favor of buffing warrior

Most guys on the warrior section are just trying to get it to where it needs to be. Those same guys will not disparage other mains for doing likewise for their classes. Is it so difficult to respond in kind?

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, eXruina.4956 said:

its relevant because it shoots down any balance argument against adding piercing to gunflame, when mechanics like that are at large, simply because "why not?" when stuff like that exist.

 

and thats discounting how hard other skills in the game are actually hitting too, and with less investment.

 

so its relevant, and i say "why not?"

And I told you why not and how it's irrelevant to the thread:

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

2 hours ago, eXruina.4956 said:

its a strong enough range burst skill, only when fully invested in with 3 damage traitlines and a minimum of 2 skill slots.

No, it's a strong enough range burst skill, period. It doesn't need to oneshoot things with whatever investment to be considered that. The fact it can also do that only adds to it and adds a reason against its pierce.

2 hours ago, eXruina.4956 said:

at the end of the day it only truly works when nothing is looking your way.

Even if that's what you think, slapping pierce on it doesn't address anything about that. If you think that's the problem, the proposed buff doesn't match it as a solution.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Edu.6984]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Most guys on the warrior section are just trying to get it to where it needs to be.

 

"where it needs to be" is highly subjective. If anet just listened to everybody's demand the powercreep would be even worse. Everyone wants their skills to have smaller cd, do more dmg, pierce, be unblockable, cost less initiative, etc.... 

 

[The Boz.2038]

On 3/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, Edu.6984 said:

First gunflare needs a dmg nerf. Got hit by nearly 18k on a 2.8k armor ele on wvw. No ranged skill should do so much dmg in 1 hit. If I didn't had 20k hp I would be one shotted. People complain about thief, and yet thieves don't hit even half of this in 1 skill. 

 

Blocking/reflect is not a solution because warrior also has instant 6s unblockable from signet that has no cast time.  

Every time you eat 20k damage from a skill that has half a minute's worth of ramp-up time and clear warning lights that it's about to go off, you fully deserve to, and whoever executed it has earned their win.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Every time you eat 20k damage from a skill that has half a minute's worth of ramp-up time and clear warning lights that it's about to go off, you fully deserve to, and whoever executed it has earned their win.

In what world does it have half a minute of ramp-up? 😄 

[Polar.8634]

nice idea! why one-shot one player when you could one-shot 5 players! sounds fun!

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

19 hours ago, Edu.6984 said:

 

I took a nearly 18k gun flame on a full ascended/legendary cele catalist. While it was not a 1 shot because I have 20k hp, not all classes are running so  much toughness and vitality, and that is not even close to be glass on under-geared.

Welcome to elementalist. Elementalilsts will get bursted like wet paper regardless of build. That's just how it is with the class with the lowest armor and HP in the game.

19 hours ago, Edu.6984 said:

You are still ignoring the fact that guardian does not have quick access to unblockable and 25 stacks of might. Your true shot will simply get blocked/reflected. 

This coming from the class that has the unblockable skills of: Zealot's Flame(torch), Pull(greatsword), Ring of Warding (hammer), Line of Warding (staff), Sanctuary (utility skill), Test of Faith (DH utility).

Also, Aegis exists...

19 hours ago, Edu.6984 said:

 

 

Not only those classes have a lot less hp, armor, invul frames and overall survivability than warrior, most of those combos are not unblockable, are not aoe, take longer to complete most do less dmg.

 

There is a huge difference between 1 shot kill and a couple seconds kill. If you are not 1 shotting, the enemy has room to teleport away/ invul/ block/ reflect, well, not block/reflect since warrior has unblockable.... 

Yes...the ONE unblockable skill to our name! (Signet of Might) Also, it triggers again via traits but it's still the same dam skill!

19 hours ago, Edu.6984 said:

It is a big joke to compare a 11k guardian wasting a stun break and getting melee range to try to land a hammer hit that can be blocked with a warrior with about twice that HP hitting from 1200 range.

I will give that guardian HP is pretty bad. Guardians need more base vitality. Out of the three heavy-armor classes it does feel the lightest.

19 hours ago, Edu.6984 said:

You may not be familiar, but guardian does not have a healing to ignore dmg like defiant stance.

It has damage mitigation (Protection) and direct damage nullification (Aegis). If guardians had damage absorption skills like warrior's Defiant Stance and revenant's Infuse Light, it would be a juiced-up Herald.

[Sobx.1758]

23 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Welcome to elementalist. Elementalilsts will get bursted like wet paper regardless of build. That's just how it is with the class with the lowest armor and HP in the game.

Not linking a whole vid, just a timestamp +/-2sec. Guys you can try to downplay it all you want, but none of that is "it requires 30 sec build up" nor "just against paper ele".

And yes, I know what compilations are, but compilation is not the point here. The point is that what you just said is false.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

20 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not linking a whole vid, just a timestamp +/-2sec. Guys you can try to downplay it all you want, but none of that is "it requires 30 sec build up" nor "just against paper ele".

And yes, I know what compilations are, but compilation is not the point here. The point is that what you just said is false.

See...what I've said up above was a FACT.

I know it's difficult for people to accept those things in the digital and social media age.

So, anyway...a youtube montage...pffft typical. Such proof! (/sarcasm)

See, a montage NEVER shows the failed attempts. And let me assure you, there are more failed attempts than people think. Although gunflame is a problem (aka being insta-gibbed with barely any warning), it is no more a problem than say shatter mesmer, which I argue is worse. At least with warriors, you can SEE whatever they do...

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

See...what I've said up above was a FACT.

What's a fact? That elementalist will get bursted? But you said it as if it just bursts elementalists because "That's just how it is with the class with the lowest armor and HP in the game". Meanwhile that clearly has nothing to do with "just being elementalist".

 

11 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

See, a montage NEVER shows the failed attempts. And let me assure you, there are more failed attempts than people think.

 

Nothing I said was somehow directed at number of failures/success rate/whatever you're implying here, it was -I hoped pretty clearly- directed at your "that's just elementalist with its lowest hp/armor in the game!" claim (did you click play at the marked timestamp?). But it is not. In fact I went out of my way to point out this, because I knew "but it's compilation!" is what will get focused on:

48 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not linking a whole vid, just a timestamp +/-2sec(...)

And yes, I know what compilations are, but compilation is not the point here. The point is that what you just said is false.

 

____________________

11 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Although gunflame is a problem (aka being insta-gibbed with barely any warning)

Hence: there's no reason to give it pierce, while some people try claiming it's some huge half-a-minute buildup towards it or that it's just against low hp/armor targets. It's not. And it's not.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What's a fact? That elementalist will get bursted? But you said it as if it just bursts elementalists because "That's just how it is with the class with the lowest armor and HP in the game". Meanwhile that clearly has nothing to do with "just being elementalist".

 

Nothing I said was somehow directed at number of failures/success rate/whatever you're implying here, it was -I hoped pretty clearly- directed at your "that's just elementalist with its lowest hp/armor in the game!" claim. But it is not. In fact I went out of my way to point out this, because I knew "but it's compilation!" is what will get focused on:

So basically, you're saying: "But other classes get bursted, too!" Yes, correct. It still does not disprove what I've said. Classes with low armor and HP are more likely to go down first when bursted and focused. I do not see how this is so controversial.