Elementalist "survivability"

[Yer.8096]

I know everyone have their own experience about how elementalists works. But, besides all criticisms I have about elementalists I think some weapons need a complete rethink and maybe a rework. Scepter needs more survivability, as well staff. Low evade possibilities, like sword (the best in my view). Scepter is a complete futility... For the last update, have damage. Thats it. Staff is another ridiculous outdated weapon, looks like we are playing an old game... Everyone can run from ALL staff skills, most of them you even dont need to evade. Last dagger update was good, but still need a little more to look a actual profession, in comparison to others. Lets do not talk about warhorn...

Its sad to me because elementalist looks soooo outdated and soooo abandoned. Everytime is buffed a little and nerfed a lot. Its just seem as damage, but not about survivability is really given to. Then you see a terrible skill (like druids roots) that you can literally die there, withou possibility to escape. Everytime you try a build you think, as elementalist: "be alive for one more hit or have more 500 damage on my best skill?" Another think I need to ask for is defiance damage: elementalists doesn't help with damage rotations... We need a rethink there to: maybe more defiance damage could help?

About slot skills... I think elemental weapons should be completely removed and their best skills merged with all viable weapons (specially scepter and staff, also dagger and warhorn). More viable and UTILITY skills could replace them.

Thats what I think could make elementalists better. People would say elementalist are fine, nowadays. A lot of profession can do better than any elementalist spec in any situation: control, damage, support... Elementalist could literally be removed from the game and the only thing you would realize is that scholars just have 2 options. To me, thats the truth. I dont want elementalists better than others: just equalized in terms of utility; to feel more useful. I'm compacting and expressing 10 years playing as ele... Thats really what I feel and I know I'm not the only one.

[draxynnic.3719]

I'm going to strongly disagree with removing the weapon conjures. They need a rework, sure, but they could play an important role in providing flexibility if their mechanics were adjusted to allow them to do so.

[AliamRationem.5172]

21 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm going to strongly disagree with removing the weapon conjures. They need a rework, sure, but they could play an important role in providing flexibility if their mechanics were adjusted to allow them to do so.

I agree.  Just rework them, get rid of the dated mechanics (i.e. the cast time, the weapon drop, the cooldowns), and overhaul the skills to be more complimentary to what ele is today.  It's sad we've been talking about this for years and there's been no action.  It could be a real game-changer for the class.

[Yer.8096]

I could agree about keep weapons. But I still think is a waste animation for cast, use 1/2 skills, animation to release. I really prefer better weapons and slot skills more viable for daily use and alternatives for utility like aegis for support and remove boons.

[Yer.8096]

2 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I agree.  Just rework them, get rid of the dated mechanics (i.e. the cast time, the weapon drop, the cooldowns), and overhaul the skills to be more complimentary to what ele is today.  It's sad we've been talking about this for years and there's been no action.  It could be a real game-changer for the class.

I really can agree with that.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I also disagree that scepter and staff should have more defense.  Some perhaps, but you seem to be suggesting make them like sword.  Unlike other classes which can weapon swap, elementalist is stuck with melee or range.  We've already made the mistake of making ranged weapons more powerful than melee with this class.  Now you want to make them stronger on defense as well?  Hard no from me.

[Yer.8096]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I also disagree that scepter and staff should have more defense.  Some perhaps, but you seem to be suggesting make them like sword.  Unlike other classes which can weapon swap, elementalist is stuck with melee or range.  We've already made the mistake of making ranged weapons more powerful than melee with this class.  Now you want to make them stronger on defense as well?  Hard no from me.

Sword have 2 evade. Thats enough when we get experience. About long range stronger than melee isnt a mistake, just look to dragonhunter, mesmer greatsword, deadeye rifle, ranger longbow... But I agree they cant be SO powerful. Just want some evade, a fast for a fast response. Staff at least have fire 4; but for weavers isnt fast enough for emergencial situation.
Maybe all the issues I gave my opinion are related to cast time (pre and post). Elementalists, in fact, have A LOT of skills. Not all of them can be so powerful. But, to cast all of them and have same effectiveness in a fast combat isnt possible with some weapons; it is possible that be the problem. Make our weapons more viable is the final thing to me; what should to do to get that is another path.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I also disagree that scepter and staff should have more defense.  Some perhaps, but you seem to be suggesting make them like sword.  Unlike other classes which can weapon swap, elementalist is stuck with melee or range.  We've already made the mistake of making ranged weapons more powerful than melee with this class.  Now you want to make them stronger on defense as well?  Hard no from me.

Now, if only there was some utility skill you could take in order to smoothly switch to a set of defensive skills without having to jump through hoops along the way. Maybe some sort of shield made from stone that can be conjured when needed?

Broadly speaking, there's usually some tradeoff to taking a ranged weapon. If it's not damage, it's usually access to defensive skills. If a ranged weapon both outDPSed and outsustained the melee weapon, why would you ever take the melee weapon?

[AliamRationem.5172]

13 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Now, if only there was some utility skill you could take in order to smoothly switch to a set of defensive skills without having to jump through hoops along the way. Maybe some sort of shield made from stone that can be conjured when needed?

Broadly speaking, there's usually some tradeoff to taking a ranged weapon. If it's not damage, it's usually access to defensive skills. If a ranged weapon both outDPSed and outsustained the melee weapon, why would you ever take the melee weapon?

That's a two-way street.  You can take earth shield on scepter and staff builds, too, and the range advantage must come at a cost or else why use melee?

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's a two-way street.  You can take earth shield on scepter and staff builds, too, and the range advantage must come at a cost or else why use melee?

If you take earth shield, you're not taking some other skill that could be boosting your damage instead, and you've had to stop using your DPS set, at least until you drop it again. This is the sort of thing that I think the conjures should be doing - running a ranged weaponset that's vulnerable in close? Pack a melee conjure that might help keep you alive until you can turn the situation around. Carrying a melee set but can't close the distance right now? Summon a ranged weapon!

Which kinda works, but is so clunky that it's hard to actually make it work in practice, with having to place the weapon, and only able to use the weapon twice in a 60s period and that's if you pick up the second weapon before it expires. The pickup weapon had a purpose once, but in the game as it is today, I'd happily trade the pickup conjure for making it smoother for the elementalist (and ArenaNet no longer having to balance for the possibility of sharing, which is how icebow got nerfed to death).

The big point I was making, though, was that having less defences on your weaponset than you'd like can be compensated for with utility skills. But either way, you need to make some sort of tradeoff. If you have a ranged DPS set with all DPS utilities, expect to have weaker defences. You can get better defences by giving up range or damage.

Edited May 21, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If you take earth shield, you're not taking some other skill that could be boosting your damage instead, and you've had to stop using your DPS set, at least until you drop it again. This is the sort of thing that I think the conjures should be doing - running a ranged weaponset that's vulnerable in close? Pack a melee conjure that might help keep you alive until you can turn the situation around. Carrying a melee set but can't close the distance right now? Summon a ranged weapon!

Which kinda works, but is so clunky that it's hard to actually make it work in practice, with having to place the weapon, and only able to use the weapon twice in a 60s period and that's if you pick up the second weapon before it expires. The pickup weapon had a purpose once, but in the game as it is today, I'd happily trade the pickup conjure for making it smoother for the elementalist (and ArenaNet no longer having to balance for the possibility of sharing, which is how icebow got nerfed to death).

The big point I was making, though, was that having less defences on your weaponset than you'd like can be compensated for with utility skills. But either way, you need to make some sort of tradeoff. If you have a ranged DPS set with all DPS utilities, expect to have weaker defences. You can get better defences by giving up range or damage.

Makes sense.  Now if they could just get around to overhauling conjures and making them awesome instead of annoying and/or worthless.

[Yer.8096]

Maybe the problem isn't all I think. Staff needs a rework: thats clear since 2012. But maybe I have the feeling elementalist need more defense because profession like mesmers... Virtuoso, more than other one.  Warrior too. They dont receive damage. That make me fell elementalist are bad, but there is a goo possibility to they are to over...

[Wayne.6253]

The only weapon that need a rework in my opinion is staff.

I play only pvp and I find scepter the strongest weapon, so OP. Sword is melee, so meh... dagger is in a middle ground but more defensive compared to scepter and naturally less offensive.

I would like to see a staff more condi orientended, 1,2,3 spells of fire should put burn, instead of only power damage and a rework of 5 spell of fire that is too slow . In this way should be available for a dps build. Acutually is only a support option.

[Khalisto.5780]

I feel staff fire could use some buffs

I have a strong feeling you using raid builds to do open world.

This changes to water staff give you so much chill uptime, that non defiance mobs will barely move.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Khalisto.5780

[Markus.6415]

4 hours ago, Wayne.6253 said:

The only weapon that need a rework in my opinion is staff.

I play only pvp and I find scepter the strongest weapon, so OP. Sword is melee, so meh... dagger is in a middle ground but more defensive compared to scepter and naturally less offensive.

I would like to see a staff more condi orientended, 1,2,3 spells of fire should put burn, instead of only power damage and a rework of 5 spell of fire that is too slow . In this way should be available for a dps build. Acutually is only a support option.

It is already in PvE. But somehow a complete different thing in PvP and WvW.

[Wayne.6253]

1 hour ago, Markus.6415 said:

It is already in PvE. But somehow a complete different thing in PvP and WvW.

yeah but i don't care about pve, for me is a braindead content... I dream to use it in dps build for pvp.

[Exzen.2976]

Unfortunately there is such a big gap between the top ele players and the average ele player. Any buffs to ele make it incredibly op in the hands of a top tier player and the nerfs to bring them in line effect the average player. 

I'm not saying "git gud" or anything, it's just a bit of a conundrum for the balance team. I personally think ele is in a good spot and scepter certainly doesn't need any buffs, but I could get behind a staff rework :)

[pallas.8150]

Scepter is great (also my primary weapon).

 

Staff, however - that really, really needs an overhaul.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Unfortunately there is such a big gap between the top ele players and the average ele player. Any buffs to ele make it incredibly op in the hands of a top tier player and the nerfs to bring them in line effect the average player. 

I'm not saying "git gud" or anything, it's just a bit of a conundrum for the balance team. I personally think ele is in a good spot and scepter certainly doesn't need any buffs, but I could get behind a staff rework 🙂

In a PvE context, I'm inclined to take a 'so what' attitude regarding what the very best players can do. If they've gone to the effort of perfecting the profession to that level and dealing with all the complications of elementalist builds, so be it. Balancing according to the top 1% while making the profession bad for everyone else is letting the tail wag the dog.

[FiveBunnies.5730]

On 5/21/2023 at 1:34 AM, Yer.8096 said:

Its sad to me because elementalist looks soooo outdated and soooo abandoned. Everytime buffed a little and nerfed a lot

Ele was recently reinforced by making the scepter's second skill self-directed. I play scepter+dagger, and I got stronger after that.

Edited May 23, 2023 by FiveBunnies.5730

[Exzen.2976]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In a PvE context, I'm inclined to take a 'so what' attitude regarding what the very best players can do. If they've gone to the effort of perfecting the profession to that level and dealing with all the complications of elementalist builds, so be it. Balancing according to the top 1% while making the profession bad for everyone else is letting the tail wag the dog.

Not disagreeing with you dude and not saying its fair. Just how it is.

[solemn.9670]

GW2 forums, the only place where elementalist is simultaneously game-breakingly overpowered yet also unplayable and underwhelming. 

[Khalisto.5780]

53 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

GW2 forums, the only place where elementalist is simultaneously game-breakingly overpowered yet also unplayable and underwhelming. 

Some blast their fields others don't, simple as that

Still dude is complaining about survivability in ele weapons, when it's prolly the class with most utility/survivability in its weapon kits

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

Some blast their fields others don't, simple as that

Still dude is complaining about survivability in ele weapons, when it's prolly the class with most utility/survivability in its weapon kits

I think it depends on mode somewhat as well. In PvP, especially sPvP, elementalist's high self-sustain and escape options make it survivable enough that the low health and armour is how they can be killed at all. In instanced PvE, everyone's getting supported by the healers, so elementalist self-healing and self-buffing doesn't do much but the low health and armour makes them easier for boss mechanics to spike down. Thief has a similar problem, and guardian mostly avoids it through having a high availability of blocks and invulns.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yes elementalist has may be the biggest spread and skewness of skill among the players. Close to thief I guess (class that haves the same issues of representation and diversity in pve).
Elementalist has so many mechanics, synergies and buffs to handle; you can easily be overwhelmed.

We can see it with Dragon's teeth : other players still complain about this skill while the base damage is kinda okai/meh now actually ... ; but they don't see the fresh air + lightning strike (and even GoEP etc), the gale etc and so all the work upstream.
Or on weaver and catalyst builds all the modificators to stack with a  lot of obligations, muscular reflex and rotation between elements, double attunements, combos, ... It's not just like warrior, SB, revenant, the more you roll your head the longer you keep your bonus.

 

It really gives satisfaction when you progress, but still there always comes a time you switch class and you just realise it has already all the good stuff in minor traits and class mechanic skills while you were struggling to find the perfect balance between traitlanes, traits, runes, sigils, vitality or HP in amulet,  keybinding ...
Or classes with free vitality bonus, passive regen/sustain, while you need to chose between your kitten utility skills and always be in a hurry for active condi cleanse and heals spread in all elements and traits ...

I mean you can play Mech with only skills 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 and still deal 28k DPS ... or give perma alacrity with AA.
Double signet CD reduction, shadow step 1200 range with condicleanse + breakstun + passive effect Versus ...  Lightning Flash !!!!??

Edited May 24, 2023 by Zhaid Zhem.6508