BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Echo.3725 said: You are factually wrong here. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in the fact that the issue is not 6/6 after the patch it is 6/7 where 7 may not impact your rune bonus but it certainly will impact what runes currently provide. Lets call our current 6/6 rune set Rune A, and lets call "Relic" Rune B. Bonus 1-6 will be Function A with bonus on 6 being Function B. Rune A currently does Function A and Function B pre- SotO Rune A now will only do Function A Rune B now will only do Function B Rune A + Rune B = Rune A Pre SotO Do you see why this is an issue for a player who already has Rune A Pre SotO? I already have the "New" content they are proposing. They are quite litterally kicking you off an arbitrary cliff that they created called SotO and asking you to climb back up to regain the same functions you currently have. If it was net new, or an override, or anything as an optional gain there would be no issue. The problem is that it is forced and impacts all current builds negatively until they can regain a Rune B item that recovers the lost functionality of Rune A prior to SotO No runes are still only 6/6. Relics aren’t runes, they aren’t even going to have the same bonuses as the 6th slot bonuses of runes. Relics are their own separate mechanic completely separate from runes. It’s not a 7th rune as you keep trying to claim. again they are balancing all runes to be inline with each other and making a completely separate mechanic. Remember runes are specifically tied to each other to provide 6/6 bonuses relics don’t fall in that category. You still can’t show any loss of functionality since the functions of runes and legendary runes stay exactly as is 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: Well, those are getting buffed then aren't they. Exactly. So in the case of Rune A1 that has THE EXACT SAME stats 1-5 as Rune A, but has no stat bump at #6, it will... be equalized in effect with Rune A, so that both then provide the exact same stats in #1-6... and then the Relic slot will balance the previously-tied-to-runes effects independently? Yeah, sure, you "lose the ability to choose the integrated effect", but it does sound like this is much more of a balance and character building move than an "oh noes they are nerfing me and me specifically because I bought X and once you buy X that means X is never to be changed or nerfed only buffed and this is bad" type of thing. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo.3725 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: No runes are still only 6/6. Relics aren’t runes, they aren’t even going to have the same bonuses as the 6th slot bonuses of runes. Relics are their own separate mechanic completely separate from runes. It’s not a 7th rune as you keep trying to claim. again they are balancing all runes to be inline with each other and making a completely separate mechanic. Remember runes are specifically tied to each other to provide 6/6 bonuses relics don’t fall in that category. You still can’t show any loss of functionality since the functions of runes and legendary runes stay exactly as is You can't claim a separate mechanic is separate if it already exists... Again if it was net new or an optional gain that is fine. that is what NEW equipment should be. This is the same argument that if they cut a greatsword in half and said you can run around and hit things with the blade and have one sigil slot now, but you see this grip over here? yea, this one you had a few months ago? you can do the same damage you did a few months ago with an extra sigil slot if you grind it out instead of just using your boring blade that we for some reason cut in half and put some functionality into this new gear slot. Edited July 12, 2023 by Echo.3725 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 51 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: No you’re using extreme examples for shock value, that have no bearing on the current situation. Your last example acts like Anet is moving all of what a Rune is to Relics and renaming them relics, which they aren’t they are just balancing one portion of a Rune what they’ve done many times before. While simultaneously making a completely new item that is its own mechanic with its own unique effects. Then just answer a question. What amount of "transferring" would change the latter situation into the former? Where that threshold exists to you? 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Echo.3725 said: You can't claim a separate mechanic is separate if it already exists... Again if it was net new or an optional gain that is fine. that is what NEW equipment should be. This is the same argument that if they cut a greatsword in half and said you can run around and hit things with the blade, but you see this grip over here? yea, this one you had a few months ago? you can do the same damage you did a few months ago with an extra sigil slot if you grind it out instead of just using your boring blade that we for some reason cut in half and put some functionality into this new gear slot. It doesn’t exist… sorry but there’s no mechanic like Relic in the game currently. Runes mechanics are completely separate you get bonuses for multiples of the same item being slot into Armor Rune slots up to 6/6 bonuses… hmm Relics don’t fit into that description in the slightest… And Relics aren’t going to have the same bonuses that Runes provide again sounds like a different mechanic… smh 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Then just answer a question. What amount of "transferring" would change the latter situation into the former? Where that threshold exists to you? When I asked the same question, I got booed at and confuseyed out the wazoo, lol. "no compensation can possibly make this good" and stuff like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Astralporing.1957 said: Then just answer a question. What amount of "transferring" would change the latter situation into the former? Where that threshold exists to you? What amount of transferring? You mean what’s representative of the current situation? Oh you know if your “arguments” would reflect what’s actually happening like a 1 for 1 balance change. Like Anet has done multiple times to multiple different Superior Runes on the 6th Rune bonus… but you keep failing to do that intentionally for shock value 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrets.3891 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) Here is what Anet's post stated: Quote As they exist in the game today, runes have five tiers of relatively straightforward stat bonuses, and the sixth tier is a wild card that can offer additional bonuses or special effects. The wild card sixth tier arbitrarily linked two build components to a single choice. Keeping with the theme of our combat updates for the expansion, we’re splitting those into two separate choices to give players more meaningful control. With the first release on August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely. ... Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership will cover the functionality of popular sixth-tier rune bonuses. For example, the Relic of the Trooper’s effect is identical to the previous sixth-tier Trooper rune effect: “Remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill.” So presumably if they did not change the stats for Trooper runes, the sixth-tier rune would only give "+125 Toughness" after August 22nd and no longer include "remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill." From my understanding- all runes are losing the wild card effect which is going to Relics and Legendary Runes are also losing the functionality to pick the wild card effect since it is no longer part of Runes. I have a full set of 7 legendary Runes and it would be disappointing to lose the wild card functionality from Legendary Runes. However, it could be interesting if the Relics are account-based for everyone, instead of character-based, like the legendary armory is today and new relics are unlocked by doing achievements and other things in-game. Looking forward to the announcement next week with more details Edited July 12, 2023 by Andrets.3891 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Andrets.3891 said: However, it could be interesting if the Relics are account-based for everyone instead of character-based like the legendary armory is today and new relics are unlocked by doing achievements and other things in-game. It is *super* annoying how ANet chose to communicate this change. The tempo of updates, the vague language employed, everything is just wrong. Two weeks now, and the most recent update is "we'll have it well-formatted for you next week"? Really? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo.3725 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: It doesn’t exist… sorry but there’s no mechanic like Relic in the game currently. Runes mechanics are completely separate you get bonuses for multiples of the same item being slot into Armor Rune slots up to 6/6 bonuses… hmm Relics don’t fit into that description in the slightest… And Relics aren’t going to have the same bonuses that Runes provide again sounds like a different mechanic… smh "August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely. But fear not—special bonus effects in combat aren’t just going away as a category! We’ve split them off into their own build component, so you can choose both the stats you want and which special effect is right for your build. Which brings us to…" I'll go ahead and let you infer the "which brings us to" is going to announce next... The fact that the original announcement stated that the 6th bonus is altering the 6th bonus to just complete the stat bonus - it says nothing about initially adding a new stat bonus - just completing the stat bonus. It also states they split those special effects that just got removed and are now migrating to their own category. That just happens to be added as they are removing something that was existing. Again we don't know the specifics until the 18th and that may be a dud announcement as well, but we do know that they are removing the special effects that make rune sets unique and moving them to a new "equipment" slot to encourage people to grind their new content. Again - I honestly have no issue with things like Jade Bot, that was a unique addition tied to Masteries. This expansion, in three of its large announcements of features, is reusing a lot of assets. Skyscale - mastery line already exists in PoF - they are adding an additional one, Weapon master changes - we are getting a few new ones but mostly access to elite spec specifics weapons, and relics are litterally taking the 6th rune bonuses and splitting them into potential stat bonuses or redistributing existing stats to 6th bonus and the special effect to Rune B (relics). Weapon Master and Sky Scale are great changes - optional increased functionality. Rune and Relic - not so much. Rune change is fine - balance that to your hearts content, give each rune set a bit more flavor or variation. Relic - net new equipment for something I get on runes? No thanks, unless they can provide something at the start with equal flexibility that I earned. 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: Well, those are getting buffed then aren't they. They don't need to be buffed, that really depends on the way anet wants to solve it. The runes are getting rebalanced anyways, so any runeset that doesn't have simple stat bonus on 6 can result in adding up the stats and dividing them between 6 runes instead of 5 runes. Edited July 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: They don't need to be buffed, that really depends on the way anet wants to solve it. The runes are getting rebalanced anyways, so any rune that doesn't have simple stat bonus on 6 can result in adding up the stats and dividing them between 6 runes instead of 5 runes. So a rune adding 400 stats (Scholar) will add 400 stats, but a rune adding 275 (Ogre) is... going to remain 275, but *diluted*? Do you honestly think that!? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourexcellency.1458 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 On 7/9/2023 at 6:36 PM, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Why should you get rewarded for not losing anything? How would it be a reward? By your logic, we aren't losing anything by having them strip the functionality away, then we wouldn't technically be gaining anything by having them return it. 2 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: So a rune adding 400 stats (Scholar) will add 400 stats, but a rune adding 275 (Ogre) is... going to remain 275, but *diluted*? Do you honestly think that!? Then they'll rebalance the runes to add the same amount, it still doesn't mean that something necessarily will be buffed and other options will remain the same, the stronger options can be pulled down or both can be averaged to meet in the middle. Some rune options might simply disappear completely if they're competing for the same stat combinations. One way or another: They don't need to be buffed, that really depends on the way anet wants to solve it. Edited July 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758 will 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said: "August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely. But fear not—special bonus effects in combat aren’t just going away as a category! We’ve split them off into their own build component, so you can choose both the stats you want and which special effect is right for your build. Which brings us to…" I'll go ahead and let you infer the "which brings us to" is going to announce next... The fact that the original announcement stated that the 6th bonus is altering the 6th bonus to just complete the stat bonus - it says nothing about initially adding a new stat bonus - just completing the stat bonus. It also states they split those special effects that just got removed and are now migrating to their own category. That just happens to be added as they are removing something that was existing. Again we don't know the specifics until the 18th and that may be a dud announcement as well, but we do know that they are removing the special effects that make rune sets unique and moving them to a new "equipment" slot to encourage people to grind their new content. Again - I honestly have no issue with things like Jade Bot, that was a unique addition tied to Masteries. This expansion, in three of its large announcements of features, is reusing a lot of assets. Skyscale - mastery line already exists in PoF - they are adding an additional one, Weapon master changes - we are getting a few new ones but mostly access to elite spec specifics weapons, and relics are litterally taking the 6th rune bonuses and splitting them into potential stat bonuses or redistributing existing stats to 6th bonus and the special effect to Rune B (relics). Weapon Master and Sky Scale are great changes - optional increased functionality. Rune and Relic - not so much. Rune change is fine - balance that to your hearts content, give each rune set a bit more flavor or variation. Relic - net new equipment for something I get on runes? No thanks, unless they can provide something at the start with equal flexibility that I earned. Completing the stat bonus means if the rune goes power ferocity power ferocity power the last one is going to be ferocity for the 6th slot and complete that stat bonus pretty simple to understand. also they’ve shown that the Relics aren’t the same bonuses as Runes they may be similar but not the same like Rune of the Thief isn’t at all like Relic of the Thief they are different bonuses completely. again the Bonuses on the runes aren’t the functionality of the Runes the functionality of the Runes are upgraded for armor pieces that stack together to provide increasing bonuses up to 6/6 nothing more nothing less. Relics are their own separate mechanic with a different bonus and don’t go into armor so aren’t the same mechanic as Runes as you keep trying to claim. they aren’t removing something that was existing since the 6th bonus is still on runes it would be removing something if they made all runes 5/5 and not 6/6 but that’s not happening is it? No runes still have 6/6 bonuses it’s just the bonus has been balanced across the board on all runes to be online with each other. so again you’re not losing anything from Legemdary runes so you require zero compensation and again the ToS you agreed to states they may and will make changes to the game and are not required to provide any compensation. but again I get it some players just want to whine and get free things handed to them. 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, yourexcellency.1458 said: How would it be a reward? By your logic, we aren't losing anything by having them strip the functionality away, then we wouldn't technically be gaining anything by having them return it. What do you mean? The whiners are asking for a free item that was never taken from them for free. Why should you get something for free that is new and you never had before for compensation for not losing anything? You aren’t losing any bonus on Runes since Runes are still 6/6 bonuses and Legendary Runes still allow you to freely swap between every available Rune so again if you aren’t losing anything why should you be freely rewarded with an item. 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: They have, you're just ignoring it. They've reduced it down to simple analogies for you. You're still not getting it. We don't want free things, we want what we currently have, and have struggled to attain, to not be taken away and have to reattain it. This. 41 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: No runes are still only 6/6. And this sort of argument is exactly what I meant by just repeating 6=6 and 5+1=6. Both ignore the underlying issue of losing the wildcard ability and being forced to work to get it back. 41 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: You still can’t show any loss of functionality since the functions of runes and legendary runes stay exactly as is Rune of the Golemancer. I use it on my mechanist. The summon golem ability is the important part. I could get the stats off a much cheaper rune set (one I didnt have to run dungeons over and over for). I will lose that after this change. 24 minutes ago, Andrets.3891 said: I have a full set of 7 legendary Runes and it would be disappointing to lose the wild card functionality from Legendary Runes. However, it could be interesting if the Relics are account-based for everyone, instead of character-based, like the legendary armory is today and new relics are unlocked by doing achievements and other things in-game. Looking forward to the announcement next week with more details Agreed. and emphasis mine....me too. 13 minutes ago, yourexcellency.1458 said: How would it be a reward? By your logic, we aren't losing anything by having them strip the functionality away, then we wouldn't technically be gaining anything by having them return it. The argument is that we will still have 6/6 stats, so no one should complain. Edited July 12, 2023 by idpersona.3810 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo.3725 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 minute ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Completing the stat bonus means if the rune goes power ferocity power ferocity power the last one is going to be ferocity for the 6th slot and complete that stat bonus pretty simple to understand. also they’ve shown that the Relics aren’t the same bonuses as Runes they may be similar but not the same like Rune of the Thief isn’t at all like Relic of the Thief they are different bonuses completely. again the Bonuses on the runes aren’t the functionality of the Runes the functionality of the Runes are upgraded for armor pieces that stack together to provide increasing bonuses up to 6/6 nothing more nothing less. Relics are their own separate mechanic with a different bonus and don’t go into armor so aren’t the same mechanic as Runes as you keep trying to claim. they aren’t removing something that was existing since the 6th bonus is still on runes it would be removing something if they made all runes 5/5 and not 6/6 but that’s not happening is it? No runes still have 6/6 bonuses it’s just the bonus has been balanced across the board on all runes to be online with each other. so again you’re not losing anything from Legemdary runes so you require zero compensation and again the ToS you agreed to states they may and will make changes to the game and are not required to provide any compensation. but again I get it some players just want to whine and get free things handed to them. Just going to point out that you literally quoted a quote of ANET stating that they are removing something from runes and putting it into its own equipment slot. Read your quote again and let me know if you still think others are having a hard time reading. Just because something is being added does not change that something got removed. There are also no specifics on your claim to the 6/6 bonus becoming something significant like the current special bonus effects. You are trying to take some sporadic examples that are still in development. We are questioning the entire system, not the specific effects. If you want to nitpick I'll return on the 18th. I have an issue with the relic system as a whole. If it was additive it would be fine. Currently, it removes functionality from an existing system and claims it as its own, as stated by its own announcement. 4 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: The whiners are asking for a free item that was never taken from them for free. No one wants free. People want what they already worked for. 6 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Why should you get something for free that is new and you never had before for compensation for not losing anything? People are losing the access to bonus effect, it has been explained to you for the past 10 pages and you still keep dodging it as if "picking any 6 thingies" means the utility remains the same. But it obviously doesn't. And, again, even anet literally spelled that out for you if you somehow didn't understand that beforehand. Edited July 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758 1 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulvar.1239 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 minute ago, idpersona.3810 said: No one wants free. People want what they already worked for. They worked for 6 legendary runes, they have 6 legendary runes. Why would people before SotO who worked for 6 legendary runes get 6 legendary runes +1 legendary relic, but people who do the same work after SotO get 6 legendary runes + 0 legendary relic? 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 minute ago, idpersona.3810 said: This. And this sort of argument is exactly what I meant by just repeating 6=6 and 5+1=6. Both ignore the underlying issue of losing the wildcard ability and being forced to work to get it back. Rune of the Golemancer. I use it on my mechanist. The summon golem ability is the important part. I could get the stats off a much cheaper rune set (one I didnt have to run dungeons over and over for). I will lose that after this change. Emphasis mine....me too. The argument is that we will still have 6/6 stats, so no one should complain. Again I haven’t ignored any “point” look at my reply to that quoted comment, you will see how you and the quoted player are wrong. again simple reasoning shows Runes are losing zero function as I’ve previously stated before, just because some players don’t know how to apply basic maths and reading comp doesn’t change that. Rune of the Golemancer are being rebalanced again something that’s happened many times before to many individual Runes without any outrage of loss of functionality of Legendary Runes so in this case there is zero loss of functionality of Legendary Runes you still will have 6/6 bonuses after this change just as it is now. again show where any functionality of the Legendary Runes are lost, you haven’t in 35 pages of “discussion” I highly doubt you will be able to now. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said: No one wants free. People want what they already worked for. You didn’t work for Relics, you worked for Legendary runes which allow freely swapping between any 6/6 Superior Rune Freely. And that’s not being taken away from you. you just want free things 1 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said: They worked for 6 legendary runes, they have 6 legendary runes. No, "they" worked to have a rounded up build using legendary gear between the gear tabs and characters. Offloading rune effect onto a new item directly works against the goal that legendary gear was crafted for. It's not somehow "the same" just because you dilute the previous 5 rune bonus into 6 runes, I seriously don't know what you and BFyre don't understand about that. If they rework runes to changing gear color, it doesn't mean it does what you made them for "because you pick 6 thingies on 6 runes and so you still get 6 thingies like you did!". Nobody cares about that weird -and irrelevant- hyperfocus on "counting the select boxes", that was never the point. Edited July 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758 1 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo.3725 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Again I haven’t ignored any “point” look at my reply to that quoted comment, you will see how you and the quoted player are wrong. again simple reasoning shows Runes are losing zero function as I’ve previously stated before, just because some players don’t know how to apply basic maths and reading comp doesn’t change that. Rune of the Golemancer are being rebalanced again something that’s happened many times before to many individual Runes without any outrage of loss of functionality of Legendary Runes so in this case there is zero loss of functionality of Legendary Runes you still will have 6/6 bonuses after this change just as it is now. again show where any functionality of the Legendary Runes are lost, you haven’t in 35 pages of “discussion” I highly doubt you will be able to now. After this change, with my superior runes, be able to quickly swap between my special bonus effects without having to acquire a relic for each of my builds that I currently can do this on? Edited July 12, 2023 by Echo.3725 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts