SotO demon leader/creator?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

23 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I disagree on Sunqua holding relevance to anything in EoD simply because the overall plot is somehat similar.

It's only real link is a few children in Shing jea talking about the location really.

IIRC, leading up to Sunqua's release, ANet devs did mention it would be related to the plot of EoD. I know some folks brought it up to me before and how they got confused and disappointed over the lack of lead-in, until I pointed out the parallels in the narrative themes.

There is no direct relation between the two, but the parallels in the narrative about a grieving mother is more obvious than a brick through a window.

23 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

However, I noticed on the mini of Kanaxai (I haven't done the fractal yet myself) it looks like he has arms crossed over his chest, similar to Deimos. While I read somewhere that all the arms on Deimos were supposed to be Saul's men sacrificed to the Mursaat in that battle, it's a shared visual aspect.

Yeah that's been noted by many people, but there can't be a relation between the two. Weird choice on Kanaxai's redesign all the same, imo. But more than just the simple arms texture, Kanaxai's new look highly resembles the Kryptis - esp the color scheme.

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

but the parallels in the narrative about a grieving mother is more obvious than a brick through a window.

When we reduce our analyses to focusing solely on the most basic plot architecture of the two stories, perhaps. 

[maxwelgm.4315]

I think the parallels in between the main plot of EoD and Sunqua Peak are far more obvious than the mother/daughter dynamic from the Fractal. Ai has literally been possessed by her excessive magic and general "negative feelings" such as grief/sorrow/fear manifesting as demons from the Mists and trying to consume her. The way her magic builds up and manifests as a non-elemental type in the end is pretty much a mirror to both concepts of Dragonvoid (magic acquiring sapience) and demons from the Mists manifesting from torment.

But this whole thing doesn't need to be right even for Kanaxai to have been very explicitly connected to the future plot by means of the secondary achievements for the fractal and the fact it's been in-game suggested you investigate the Fractals by Gorrik. The CM surely will have dialogue even further indicating a connection as was the case with Ai's dark phase for Sunqua.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

I think the parallels in between the main plot of EoD and Sunqua Peak are far more obvious than the mother/daughter dynamic from the Fractal. Ai has literally been possessed by her excessive magic and general "negative feelings" such as grief/sorrow/fear manifesting as demons from the Mists and trying to consume her. The way her magic builds up and manifests as a non-elemental type in the end is pretty much a mirror to both concepts of Dragonvoid (magic acquiring sapience) and demons from the Mists manifesting from torment.

Yes. As I said in my earlier posts, the parallels is more than just the grieving mother plot. And it's more than that + Dragonvoid / darkness manifest taking over the mother too.

In Sunqua Peak, you fight through multiple element-themed foes, get led into the situation by a female character who initially deceives you, and make your way to the grieving mother of elemental power who is losing control of herself due to innate darkness, which you then (in the CM) force out of her to subsequently beat up, giving her a bittersweet ending before she moves on.

While it obviously isn't an exact 1:1, the parallels are many and far more than just "grieving mother" that some people seem to solely focus on with my post.

[mandala.8507]

31 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

get led into the situation by a female character who initially deceives you

Again, the diction here isn't doing you any favors.

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

On 7/5/2023 at 8:55 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

However, I noticed on the mini of Kanaxai (I haven't done the fractal yet myself) it looks like he has arms crossed over his chest, similar to Deimos. While I read somewhere that all the arms on Deimos were supposed to be Saul's men sacrificed to the Mursaat in that battle, it's a shared visual aspect.

Yeah that's been noted by many people, but there can't be a relation between the two.

And like...says who? Could you elaborate on why you believe there can be no relation between Deimos and Kanaxai?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 7/7/2023 at 10:03 AM, mandala.8507 said:

And like...says who? Could you elaborate on why you believe there can be no relation between Deimos and Kanaxai?

For once I'm going to bother responding to you again...

Because we know Deimos' origins in full. And he is not a random demon from the Mists. He was born out of Saul D'Alessio's guilty conscious in the Bastion of the Penitent, a place close to the Mists. This is why Deimos cannot have relation with Kanaxai, who is 200+ years Deimos' elder and was trapped in the Jade Sea (or dead) when Deimos was born in Tyria.
Honestly it doesn't take much digging to realize this - a very brief purview of Deimos' wiki page explains this. We even know why Deimos has a many hands motif - a mantle of arms representing those who Saul led to their death grasping and clinging onto his face.
Deimos was created in a very similar manner to Ai's demon, except Ai's demon was born fully in the Mists from a fractal - Kanaxai's origins may be unknown, but the closest relation would be "created through similar methods during completely unrelated events taking place centuries apart". And the fact Tyria has zero history of Oni while Cantha does indicates Kanaxai never showed up in the northern continents.
Kanaxai's redesign also implies that he is a Kryptis, or being tied to them. And Deimos very much isn't.

So who says? The artists of Deimos' design and writers of Bastion of the Penitent lore says. Chris Bennett and Bobby Stein - who is now lead narrative design - says.

Sources, because you apparently cannot do a brief wiki search: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/4QVDk and https://youtu.be/DHT-zIsOWm8?t=48m9s

Edited July 8, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:59 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Sources, because you apparently cannot do a brief wiki search:

This statement you make

On 7/8/2023 at 11:59 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Because we know Deimos' origins in full.

simply is not what is stated on the wiki or what could be reasonably concluded from either of the sources you linked (in my opinion). The biography section of Deimos' wiki reads:

Quote

Deimos is a being of unclear origins. Though called a demon, which are beings born of malevolent energies of the Mists, it is a manifestation of Saul D'Alessio's sins and guilt. Due to the unclear nature of demons, and the Bastion of the Penitent overlapping with the Mists, it is possible for Deimos to be both. Deimos's very body depicts Saul's guilt and sins. The arms draped around Deimos's shoulders are the arms of fallen White Mantle soldiers who had died under Saul's command, while on its chest is a carving of a mursaat glyph representing the Eye of Janthir.

Though its origins are unclear, Deimos worked with the Eye of Janthir, tormenting the mursaat's valued prisoner in order to break his psyche and turn him into the mursaat's puppet while feasting on his suffering. In the depths of the Bastion of the Penitent, Deimos thrived within Saul's mind via demonic realm and within Tyria.

I feel like a brief wiki search rapidly calls into question the validity of your statement, and I'm not sure why you are insistent upon there being no possible connection between Deimos and other demons.

[Logos.5603]

11 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

This statement you make

simply is not what is stated on the wiki or what could be reasonably concluded from either of the sources you linked (in my opinion). The biography section of Deimos' wiki reads:

I feel like a brief wiki search rapidly calls into question the validity of your statement, and I'm not sure why you are insistent upon there being no possible connection between Deimos and other demons.

"Though called a demon, which are beings born of malevolent energies of the Mists, it is a manifestation of Saul D'Alessio's sins and guilt. Due to the unclear nature of demons, and the Bastion of the Penitent overlapping with the Mists, it is possible for Deimos to be both. Deimos's very body depicts Saul's guilt and sins."

Both here refers to being both a manifestation of D'Alessio's sins and guilt, and a demon. The only relation or connection we can (should?) infer from the wiki is that they are both (possibly) demons, Deimos also being something more (a manifestation of sins and guilt).

[mandala.8507]

25 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

The only relation or connection we can (should?) infer from the wiki is that they are both (possibly) demons, Deimos also being something more (a manifestation of sins and guilt).

We know both Kanaxai and Deimos are demons, so it's not possibly, but definitely.

Whether or not Deimos' existence extends beyond the confines of Saul's individual anguish could be debated, but my point is that we don't know the degree to which Deimos could or could not be related to other demons. It is simply an unknown, and so it is odd that some people insist we know everything we ever could know about him and how he connects to demon lore and origins, despite that part of the lore expanding with the latest content updates.

I would be more surprised to see Arenanet ignore the demon lore already in the game moving forward than to see them weave it into the new story they are telling with Secrets of the Obscure; taking the opportunity to further our understanding of these creatures as a whole, as opposed to just focusing on the one novel Kryptis faction being highlighted in the expansion press so far.

Could I be wrong in thinking they'll do this? Absolutely.

But it isn't outside the range of possibilities and nothing I've read from those in opposition to that possibility has proven it to be so, so I'm not sure why we are trying to stifle discussion about it.

On 7/6/2023 at 8:08 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yeah that's been noted by many people, but there can't be a relation between the two.

When Konig says this, it's with a degree of certainty I don't feel we can have about the situation, because we don't really know enough about Deimos or Kanaxai to be so definitive here.

[Logos.5603]

4 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

We know both Kanaxai and Deimos are demons, so it's not possibly, but definitely.

Whether or not Deimos' existence extends beyond the confines of Saul's individual anguish could be debated, but my point is that we don't know the degree to which Deimos could or could not be related to other demons. It is simply an unknown, and so it is odd that some people insist we know everything we ever could know about him and how he connects to demon lore and origins, despite that part of the lore expanding with the latest content updates.

I would be more surprised to see Arenanet ignore the demon lore already in the game moving forward than to see them weave it into the new story they are telling with Secrets of the Obscure; taking the opportunity to further our understanding of these creatures as a whole, as opposed to just focusing on the one novel Kryptis faction being highlighted in the expansion press so far.

Could I be wrong in thinking they'll do this? Absolutely.

But it isn't outside the range of possibilities and nothing I've read from those in opposition to that possibility has proven it to be so, so I'm not sure why we are trying to stifle discussion about it.

When Konig says this, it's with a degree of certainty I don't feel we can have about the situation, because we don't really know enough about Deimos or Kanaxai to be so definitive here.

Mmm...in what sense do we "know" that they are both demons? The wiki classifies them as demons, but does the demon classification pick a natural kind? Demons can be (1) just product of the mists,  (2) products of the mists + manifestations of sins and guilt, and (3) they can be mortals turned into demons by powerful magical creatures ("demons" or gods [i.e., Abaddon]). My worry is that game classifies these creatures as "demons" because Tyrians classify them as demons, and as such we are reading "demons" as natural kinds (as denoting an ontologically real kind) when they are not supposed be such in the lore. Tyrians are just wrong about thinking of them as one and the same thing. The fact that (1-3) can be "demons," despite their different origins I think suggests this, hence the "possible."

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Mmm...in what sense do we "know" that they are both demons?

In the sense that they are both called demons explicitly in-game and by developers.

[Logos.5603]

3 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

In the sense that they are both called demons explicitly in-game and by developers.

Yea, but these things being called demons in-game by NPCs does not mean that they are (a) demons, nor (b) that there is a natural kind "demons" to which they all belong. Second, the developers might just be calling them what they are called within the context of the known lore. In which case, they may or may not turn out to be demons (i.e., because there is not a natural kind "demons" in the lore after all).

Lore-wise, the evidence we have that demons exist is that there are creatures with at least three different origins that look creepy and are bad, and that these are called "demons" by Tyrians. Whether or not this means that they are all actually demons, and that there is a natural kind "demon" to which they belong is pure speculation.

[Logos.5603]

It is worth pointing out that in the youtube link that Konig shared it is suggested that perhaps Deimos is not even real, raising the question of whether it is even a demon at all though the devs call it a demon just right before they raise this possibility.

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Whether or not this means that they are all actually demons, and that there is a natural kind "demon" to which they belong is pure speculation.

So then why are we trying to stifle said speculation? If we actually don't know everything about them, then isn't Konig incorrect in assuming we know everything and and in telling us that speculating upon a connection between these two entities is fruitless?

Which is it, in your view? Do we know everything about Deimos, and so there's nothing to speculate about concerning his origins and relations to demonkind, or do we know less than everything and should therefore be free to speculate away?

[Logos.5603]

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

So then why are we trying to stifle said speculation? If we actually don't know everything about them, then isn't Konig incorrect in assuming we know everything and and in telling us that speculating upon a connection between these two entities is fruitless?

Which is it, in your view? Do we know everything about Deimos, and so there's nothing to speculate about concerning his origins and relations to demonkind, or do we know less than everything and should therefore be free to speculate away?

I think it is possible that they are both demons, though establishing this would require more info than we currently have regarding the nature of demons in GW. As for speculating about a relationship between the two...it depends on what we are speculating about. I think we know enough about Deimos and  Kanaxai to rule out some relationships. For example, they were not produced the same way, and one is much older than the other.

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Logos.5603 said:

For example, they were not produced the same way, and one is much older than the other.

And could you point me to the reference stating Deimos' age and the process by which he came to be?

[Logos.5603]

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

And could you point me to the reference stating Deimos' age and the process by which he came to be?

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/4QVDk

"Saul's Demon is the final raid boss in the Guild Wars 2 raid Bastion of the Penitent. It was released alongside the Living World chapter "The Head of the Snake" on February 8, 2017. This creature is the manifestation of the all the inner demons of the character, Saul D'Alessio. I was responsible for the concept, model and texture" (Chris Bennett, emphasis mine).

[mandala.8507]

6 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

"Saul's Demon is the final raid boss in the Guild Wars 2 raid Bastion of the Penitent. It was released alongside the Living World chapter "The Head of the Snake" on February 8, 2017. This creature is the manifestation of the all the inner demons of the character, Saul D'Alessio. I was responsible for the concept, model and texture" (Chris Bennett, emphasis mine).

Yes. I am aware of the themes that played into the creation of his in-game model. But could you point me to a reference to Deimos' definitive origins in-universe? I know the form he takes in Bastion of the Penitent is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions, but do you have anything more concrete than this? Do you have a concrete reference to Kanaxai's origins?

Or is it all up for interpretation and fair-game for speculation?

[Logos.5603]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

Yes. I am aware of the themes that played into the creation of his in-game model. But could you point me to a reference to Deimos' definitive origins in-universe? I know the form he takes in Bastion of the Penitent is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions, but do you have anything more concrete than this? Do you have a concrete reference to Kanaxai's origins?

Or is it all up for interpretation and fair-game for speculation?

But this is not denoting a theme, but an origin of the creature. 

Saying that "I know the form he takes in Bastion of the Penitent is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions" implies that you know that he existed as an entity separate from Saul's inner negative emotions. However, the devs have explicitly stated that Deimos is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions at least on two occasions (whether he is also the product of the mists is open to speculation). This is pretty concrete evidence of Deimos' origin (at least part of its origin). Why do we need a definitive in-universe reference as well? Where do you get the idea that he is taking a form in the Bastion of the Penitent. Am I missing something?

True, we only have rumors of Kanaxai's origins, but he predates Deimos.

[mandala.8507]

5 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Saying that "I know the form he takes in Bastion of the Penitent is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions" implies that you know that he existed as an entity separate from Saul's inner negative emotions. However, the devs have explicitly stated that Deimos is a manifestation of Saul's inner negative emotions at least on two occasions (whether he is also the product of the mists is open to speculation). This is pretty concrete evidence of Deimos' origin (at least part of its origin). Why do we need a definitive in-universe reference as well? Where do you get the idea that he is taking a form in the Bastion of the Penitent. Am I missing something?

I'm saying that him manifesting as Saul's tormenter in the raid isn't necessarily the be-all or end-all of his possible existence in-universe. Because we don't know anything about his existence outside of this raid wing, and him manifesting to torture Saul doesn't, in my mind, mean he didn't exist before that in some form or another.

[Raknar.4735]

I wonder if Razah is involved in any way.

I wonder where it ended up.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Raknar.4735

[Nosrorav.4703]

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

We know both Kanaxai and Deimos are demons, so it's not possibly, but definitely.

[...]

When Konig says this, it's with a degree of certainty I don't feel we can have about the situation, because we don't really know enough about Deimos or Kanaxai to be so definitive here.

What degree of certainty do you have that Kanaxai is a demon though?
Maybe he's like the Oni, a human transformed into something demonic. Like Margonites. Or Nightmares and Titans being souls turned into something demonic.

But devs do state Deimos is a manifestation of Saul's sins and guilt.

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'm saying that him manifesting as Saul's tormenter in the raid isn't necessarily the be-all or end-all of his possible existence in-universe. Because we don't know anything about his existence outside of this raid wing, and him manifesting to torture Saul doesn't, in my mind, mean he didn't exist before that in some form or another.

But that's just wild, baseless, speculation. There's nothing to support or imply Deimos being more, even from developer statements.

[mandala.8507]

2 hours ago, Nosrorav.4703 said:

What degree of certainty do you have that Kanaxai is a demon though?

His title of "Unknown Demon" from the Silent Surf fractal makes me pretty much 100% certain.

2 hours ago, Nosrorav.4703 said:

But that's just wild, baseless, speculation. There's nothing to support or imply Deimos being more, even from developer statements.

There was nothing to imply Mordremoth and Zhaitan were siblings before IBS, but someone speculating that all the elder dragons were related would have been absolutely correct. I'm not even speculating something so specific, just that there could be more to Deimos' origins because of his connection to demons and the Mists. I don't think that's wild or out-of-the-box thinking on my part.

Still not sure why we're insistent that it can't be something they expand upon. Why? Tell me why there can be nothing more to learn about this character, y'all.

[Logos.5603]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

His title of "Unknown Demon" from the Silent Surf fractal makes me pretty much 100% certain.

There was nothing to imply Mordremoth and Zhaitan were siblings before IBS, but someone speculating that all the elder dragons were related would have been absolutely correct. I'm not even speculating something so specific, just that there could be more to Deimos' origins because of his connection to demons and the Mists. I don't think that's wild or out-of-the-box thinking on my part.

Still not sure why we're insistent that it can't be something they expand upon. Why? Tell me why there can be nothing more to learn about this character, y'all.

I think all of this is fair grounds for speculation (however wild), and all lore can be expanded upon in all kinds of ways, but if the goal is to try to draw accurate connections (less speculative, and more substantive) then we should restrict our speculations to what we can infer from the lore (both from what is said in-game and what devs say).

Also, we need to be really careful with signpostings like "Unknown Demon." Is this what our characters are thinking? Or is this a sign that the developers are using to let us know that Kanaxai belongs to the natural kind "demons"? We don't know for certain, though I would suspect that this is what our characters are thinking, and as such, it is mere speculation on their part.

"but someone speculating that all the elder dragons were related would have been absolutely correct."

True, but at the time that would be a baseless speculation and rightfully dismissed as not really contributing to the development of an accurate picture of the in-game world. I guess the question is "why should we entertain wild speculations?" There might be a reason to do so, but lore enthusiasts might not really care for such questions since they don't really contribute to understanding the in-game world from the evidence at hand.

[Senti.2890]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

His title of "Unknown Demon" from the Silent Surf fractal makes me pretty much 100% certain.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Demon_Hunt

margonites and oni are often called demons

including the ravenous wanderer who seems to be captain thess

i dont think we can be '100% certain'