SoTo quality need to be off the charts

[Beast Sos.1457]

With the lackluster amount of content (from what we can see) the quality of this expansion needs to be top notch. 2 maps 2 strikes. Thats pretty much this expansion, content wise. Replay-ability seems like its there but with the limited amount of content I can see that becoming boring really fast. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for it but then again I am a simp for gw2. 

On a side note. Is it really that hard to make instance content to the point where we get 2-3 a year? On top of that these kitten strikes are just reused assets from the story. How hard can it be to add more? I really don't understand the current pace of making instance content. IMO if a AAA gaming studio can't make a instance encounter in under a month, something is really off. 

PS: I simp for this game so hard that I bought the ultimate edition just for the fact they released new content. 

[Mukizo.1269]

I think it is because they are working on another game and are relatively understaffed, or they are stuck in a loop. It was a massive mistake not taking advantage of the leverage of new and returning players after EoD released. Sure, they deserved a break after hard work, but the break should have been way later in order to convince the new players to stay. 
 

When your game doesn’t get updated in 1 year you know something is wrong. Timing is everything and frankly SoTo’s timing couldn’t be worse. But hey at least we are getting something. I pre ordered as well.

[Beast Sos.1457]

37 minutes ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

I think it is because they are working on another game and are relatively understaffed, or they are stuck in a loop. It was a massive mistake not taking advantage of the leverage of new and returning players after EoD released. Sure, they deserved a break after hard work, but the break should have been way later in order to convince the new players to stay. 
 

When your game doesn’t get updated in 1 year you know something is wrong. Timing is everything and frankly SoTo’s timing couldn’t be worse. But hey at least we are getting something. I pre ordered as well.

What do you mean a break. Work is work. If I'm a work and finish a project, its on to the next one unless there is nothing to work on. What kind of break is expected here? I don't understand. Breaks to me are holidays, weekends, and your vacation time.

You're probably right. I just have been to naive in thinking Anets main focus was Gw2. I guess I should just stop expecting anything. 

 

 

[idpersona.3810]

SotO quality will very much be "on the charts".

I just hope it's enjoyable. I've yet to pre-order though since I'm waiting for their July 18th blog post to clarify some things. Everything aside from the possible relic implementing looks fantastic to me.

I am hoping the story is way better than the What Lies Beneath story. But if not that'll be 2 in a row.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Isn't it two maps at start then another map from quarterly updates?

[Linken.6345]

29 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Isn't it two maps at start then another map from quarterly updates?

Correct + 2 strikes with cm editions and 1 fractal.

[Fueki.4753]

At this point, "off the charts" for GW2 means no more than better than Icebrood Saga's Champions chapter.

And that is something we haven't seen since Champions.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Batalix.2873]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

At this point, "off the charts" for GW2 means no more than better than Icebrood Saga's Champions chapter.

And that is something we haven't seen since Champions.

I think that is a bit of a stretch, even if I agree with the general sentiment.

Nothing in Cantha is as blatantly resource-conservative as Champions. Yes there are a lot of cut corners, lack of content, and general signs of rushed/unpolished development.

But it's not quite at the same level of non-content. Now, if this "reflections of Tyria" thing in SotO turns out to be just a lot of recycled map assets...

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I can not wait to hear the whining when the new "pve" armor set ends up requiring strikes like turtle. Reread the announcement, they only said it would not require raids, wvw or pvp.

[Fueki.4753]

50 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Nothing in Cantha is as blatantly resource-conservative as Champions. Yes there are a lot of cut corners, lack of content, and general signs of rushed/unpolished development.

It may not be as resource-drained as champions and have more content, but that doesn't mean the actual quality of the content is any better. And the quality is what this topic is about.

49 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Now, if this "reflections of Tyria" thing in SotO turns out to be just a lot of recycled map assets...

I won't be surprised, if this partially resembles Champions.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Batalix.2873]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It may not be as resource-drained as champions and have more content, but that doesn't mean the actual quality of the content is any better.

And the quality is what this topic is about.

It's...marginally better? New maps are pretty. Got a turtle and I guess the jadebot isn't totally useless. Fishing...exists.

I'm by no means defending EoD, it is not up to the quality of pre-Champions GW2. But... It's not Champions.

Now, the strikes...yeah I could consider those to be approaching Champions-level quality since they literally just reuse story bosses. And by that extension maybe the Jade Sea since it's almost exclusively populated by old monsters.

Some good chunks of EoD, sure. The whole EoD... I'm just trying to keep things from being too hyperbolic. If Champions is a 1 on the scale of 0 to HoT/PoF, EoD ranges from like...2-5?

Edited July 10, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

New maps are pretty. Got a turtle and I guess the jadebot isn't totally useless. Fishing...exists.

To me, the maps could have been pretty, had there been literally not one piece of jade junk.

Why is the forest almost completely wood again, yet the jade see is still mostly stone? It makes no sense that the they revert at such vastly different rates. Why is New Kaineng modelled after dystopian mega cities, rather than one of the more beautiful cities East Asia has to offer?

With the flood destroying old Kaineng (and probably killing a substantial part of the population), Cantha had the chance to build a better town, not a worse one.

The bot is effectively just unnecessary attribute creep. Fishing just... exists. On that one I agree.

The turtle needs maps dedicated to it's functions to have a use. This limits the map design and thus counts as a negative to me.

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Now, the strikes...yeah I could consider those to be approaching Champions-level quality since they literally just reuse story bosses. And by that extension maybe the Jade Sea since it's almost exclusively populated by old monsters.

Dragon's End and Gyala Delve are just bad. And yes, I'm lumping them together because they effectively are the same with the same bad points. They sacrificed the entire Jade Sea biome and most of its unique fauna for two maps entirely dedicated to far-too-long and tiresome whole-map meta event chains with boring reskins of old enemies. Even the old Jade Sea fractal gives the Jade Sea a bit more character. And these metas heavily incentivise the use of the Turtle (or even force its use in Gyala Delve), which limits player options needlessly.

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Some good chunks of EoD, sure. The whole EoD... I'm just trying to keep things from being too hyperbolic. If Champions is a 1 on the scale of 0 to HoT/PoF, EoD ranges from like...2-5?

DRMs weren't 100% bad either. I somewhat enjoyed a few of the bosses. But the overall package just ended up being a negative for the game. To me, EoD is no different.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Batalix.2873]

I agree on jadebot attribute creep. In general the jadebot was a disappointment, needed to do a lot more than just increment other existing systems.

I agree Echovald would have been more interested if it remained petrified. As it stands it just feels like a pathetic attempt at recreating HoT instead of being its own thing.

I kind of disagree on turtle in that it was reminiscent of old horizontal design that designed expansions holistically, maps and masteries working together. But they didn't go as far with it as I think they should have.

Would have hated the DRMs a lot less if we didn't have to do every single one as part of the core story. It was a slog and really diluted whatever variety the system might have afforded on replay enjoyment.

I do believe Gyala is better than Dragon's End, as a matter of (a) exploring new territory, (b) utilizing expac mechanics, (c) bringing in neglected parts of Cantha like oni and luxons, (d) having a more narratively and thematically coherent meta. It's not great, the boss fights are especially disappointing, but I feel like overall it would need much less massaging to feel "good". Whereas Dragon's End is just the most unnecessarily long, irrelevant escort meta in the game and just ruins the Soo-Won fight. And the map enemies are just...meh.

I think we are mostly in agreement on a lot of things, so these are just minor observations.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Fueki.4753]

32 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I kind of disagree on turtle in that it was reminiscent of old horizontal design that designed expansions holistically, maps and masteries working together. But they didn't go as far with it as I think they should have.

If it had been environmental masteries like Mushrooms in HoT, I would agree with this point. But the Turtle being an over-sized mount is just different.

Things like the mushrooms and the Lava geysers on HoT and Season 3 were placed with environmental design in mind. They blend in with the map and don't bite themselves with the visual experience of the map.

The turtle is over-sized, meaning it blocks one's own view and the view of other players (this is the same complain I have about Mechanist's abomination). The places where the turtle is intended/required to be used don't feel naturally fitting with the maps itself, as those are just walls that where placed to be destroyed rather than being part of the environment.

32 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Would have hated the DRMs a lot less if we didn't have to do every single one as part of the core story. It was a slog and really diluted whatever variety the system might have afforded on replay enjoyment.

DRMs should have been made optional at some point or at least reduced to three or four mandatory key DRMs that tell a bit of relevant story, rather than having each character always do all twelve when completing that story bit. Brisbane Wildlands, Lake Doric, Snowden Drifts and Fire Heart Rise are the ones with the most important events (the conversation between Caithe and Ryland, discovering that Jormag freezes people, Ryland destroying owl and Braham becoming a pseudo-Destroyer).

32 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I do believe Gyala is better than Dragon's End, as a matter of (a) exploring new territory, (b) utilizing expac mechanics, (c) bringing in neglected parts of Cantha like oni and luxons, (d) having a more narratively and thematically coherent meta. It's not great, the boss fights are especially disappointing, but I feel like overall it would need much less massaging to feel "good". Whereas Dragon's End is just the most unnecessarily long, irrelevant escort meta in the game and just ruins the Soo-Won fight. And the map enemies are just...meh.

In terms of the metas, both are equally terrible to me. If I ever wanted to do an hours-long whole-map meta ever again, I'd just do Dragon's Stand for that (abysmal) chance at invisible shoes. Metas aside, I dislike Dragon's End a bit less, because I can actually explore that map on my own time, rather than relying on the meta to progress.

The Oni were a bit of a nice touch in Gyala Delve. But them being combined with that mind-trickery didn't feel right to me. Oni were Assassins in GW1, not Mesmers (which in lore and GW1's abilities are far more mind-abusing than the playable Mesmers in GW2).

Edited July 10, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Batalix.2873]

42 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If it had been environmental masteries like Mushrooms in HoT, I would agree with this point. But the Turtle being an over-sized mount is just different.

Things like the mushrooms and the Lava geysers on HoT and Season 3 were placed with environmental design in mind. They blend in with the map and don't bite themselves with the visual experience of the map.

The turtle is over-sized, meaning it blocks one's own view and the view of other players (this is the same complain I have about Mechanist's abomination). The places where the turtle is intended/required to be used don't feel naturally fitting with the maps itself, as those are just walls that where placed to be destroyed rather than being part of the environment.

DRMs should have been made optional at some point or at least reduced to three or four mandatory key DRMs that tell a bit of relevant story, rather than having each character always do all twelve when completing that story bit. Brisbane Wildlands, Lake Doric, Snowden Drifts and Fire Heart Rise are the ones with the most important events (the conversation between Caithe and Ryland, discovering that Jormag freezes people, Ryland destroying owl and Braham becoming a pseudo-Destroyer).

In terms of the metas, both are equally terrible to me. If I ever wanted to do an hours-long whole-map meta ever again, I'd just do Dragon's Stand for that (abysmal) chance at invisible shoes. Metas aside, I dislike Dragon's End a bit less, because I can actually explore that map on my own time, rather than relying on the meta to progress.

The Oni were a bit of a nice touch in Gyala Delve. But them being combined with that mind-trickery didn't feel right to me. Oni were Assassins in GW1, not Mesmers (which in lore and GW1's abilities are far more mind-abusing than the playable Mesmers in GW2).

All very fair points.

I still think the turtle could have worked design-wise. Regarding obstrusiveness, it's not much bigger than Skyscale, but even still if they wanted to prevent screen clutter they could have done things like they did with jackal and roller beetle. Mount-specific nooks that players could hunt for without dominating the map. I especially think underwater would have been a great way to hide turtle features, cave diving with some walls you might need to blow up.

I actually quite like the turtle as a concept niche. I think it it could have facilitated more WvW style map design to help synergize WvW/PvE, as well as be a useful tool for chauffeuring new players in the game. But for all turt's potential the designers did so little to actually design gameplay around it, and in fact sabotaged the taxi utility by giving everyone a free raptor/springer. Like many of ANet's recent decisions, it feels like they nailed the concept design and totally skipped the workshopping and implementation phases, thinking that merely having new features for players to play with would excuse them from the responsibility of developing settings and content in which those features would be fun.

Totally agree on Mechanist though. Of all the jobs they had to overtune and make accessible for people who just want to autoattack, they chose the garish green giant. Mechanist encompasses so many things about current design philosophy that I absolutely abhor: visual clutter, one-note jade aesthetic, easy ranged combat, passive boon support, half-finished espec concepts, duplicative espec identities, unimaginative new weaponskills, a refusal to target nerf new classes and engage in much messier multi-class "balance" patches, narrowing of raid meta, LI abuse and apologism, spectacle marketing/design and pushing a single concept as the poster child of the expansion, etc.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[GEGEZZ.7563]

I think this expansion is a cornerstone in this game's evolution. It's a new concept for product selling and monetization. What interests me the most is not really this sole expansion, but i think the frequency of new releases is going to increase dramatically in the future if they keep the same concept.

We don't get much content i agree with that, but it took them like a year to do, maybe a bit less. If i could get such updates every year that would be something. Something better than waiting 5 full years to have a new combat skill to play with.

Of course the content is lighter than usual, but that's about what the devs can do in such a timeframe. You can't really compare expansions' depth between one who took 5 years of dev with one that took a year or less to make. Between one where most things were in place and one where you have to reinvent yourself.

It's like comparing a premade house with a million bucks manor and saying : hey the manor has more charm to it, why don't they make more of these manors ?

 

As for the strikes, i probably won't play them as usual unless i am forced to do so. Thing is they did more than just 2 maps and 2 strikes, this is just what interest you and what you remember. But they did more things that that in the xpac. Personally i like gameplay so what interests me the most is the new skills and the new rewards, and maybe the relics if something ends up different.

Edited July 12, 2023 by GEGEZZ.7563

[Ashen.2907]

I agree that SotO's quality needs to be top tier, moreso even than past expacs. If you are going to scale back size, and focus on rehashing long existing features rather than introducing new ones, then the quality of what is delivered (always important) becomes even more key. This is especially the case in the aftermath of a recent downward trend in content quality. After the truncated ending for IBS, EoD's mixed reception (post launch), and Gyala's lightweight delivery, I think that SotO needs to be amazing to dispell certain perceptions of GW2's direction and decline.

All opinion of course, but in any industry you want your new product to make a great first impression.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[GEGEZZ.7563]

Personally i saw a big upward trend in quality with EoD. First time the game really made me laugh (positively) with the story and adding fishing is the best thing that could happen to me.