Exposed weakness and Premeditation need to be capped

[SlayerXX.7138]

Exposed weakness and Premeditation are both scaling multiplicative Damage modifier. They introduce way to much variance. With balance changes generally nerfing overperformers, these traits as they are now, are chains shackling power thief. They also inflate benchmarks, and probably played a big role in DE nerfs. They should cap these traits up to a certain number of boons and conditions, then relocate the lost power to something else. preferable not in another %damage trait.

[TheThief.8475]

I agree, as they are now they are 100% effective only at golem or in open world

[Yureii.4236]

imo Exposed Weakness should just be a vuln modifier like +0.5% per stack, and Premeditation should just be some other boon modifier like deal 10% increased damage when you have might or striking a boonless foe or something idk

Edited July 20, 2023 by Yureii.4236

[Mixchimmer.7230]

I actually can get on board for this.  

It feels pretty bad to feel like you had a really smooth rotation only to notice you didn't have a very condi-heavy group comp, so your damage suffered for it.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I remember back in the day, EW provided a static 10% modifier if the target was affected with a condition, and was one of the reasons why kitten was taken in the PvP modes along with Mug, thanks to it being a reliable source of multiplicative damage.

Easy and didn't provide an insane ~26% damage on its own scaling based on the comp.

At < 50% HP with Executioner, it means these two traits alone account for over 1/3 of the thief's damage.

I still don't get why they changed it.  They cited wanting to promote kitten as the line for condi/hybrid thief more rather than pure defensive lines, but if they wanted to do that, just make it also give 10% condition damage and then restore the 30% damage they took from CS.

Edited July 22, 2023 by DeceiverX.8361

[Funky.4861]

I completely disagree. The combination of those traits was clearly designed to reward optimal gameplay, especially as thief isn't really taken in instanced content due to its lack of utility.

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Funky.4861 said:

I completely disagree. The combination of those traits was clearly designed to reward optimal gameplay, especially as thief isn't really taken in instanced content due to its lack of utility.

i don't think OP wants to lower thief DPS in group content, but distribute the damage from those modifiers to less restrictive options that can be fully utilized outside of raids for a more consistent performance.

[Funky.4861]

This is one of the few instances of a class being rewarded for high-quality group play. By 'simplifying' or 'redistributing the damage' of those traits, you're just dumbing it down, much like the change to flanking/rear damage bonuses. Though i do admit that positioning can be difficult in mechanic-heavy fights.

[bq pd.2148]

what you see as rewarding for high quality group play, can easily be seen as a dependency on a high quality group play, especially if overall performance is fine tuned assuming that you have very high modifiers for those two going.

if however high quality group play would lead to exceptional DPS on the thief, beyond the regular benchmarks that the devs seem to use for balancing, then i would also call it a reward.

Edited July 24, 2023 by bq pd.2148

[SlayerXX.7138]

22 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

This is one of the few instances of a class being rewarded for high-quality group play. By 'simplifying' or 'redistributing the damage' of those traits, you're just dumbing it down, much like the change to flanking/rear damage bonuses. Though i do admit that positioning can be difficult in mechanic-heavy fights.

Could you explain what you mean high quality group play? Having 12 conditions instead of 8 is no really in your hands if you are not forming the group, so it mostly random. Even then potentially compromising your group for 4k dps seems silly. You could maybe make a case for Premeditation, but that seems kind of a stretch if you are against a cap. Most relevant buffs are on you anyway. If you get free dps because your subgroup just happens to have free buffs thanks to class choice, that are not needed feels kind of cheap.
Don't want power thief in a bad spot, because Jonny dps makes sure to over stacks his groups with resistance and resolution on fights without conditions.

[Funky.4861]

@SlayerXX.7138 What i'm referring to is organised, role-compressed squads/parties where each player pulls their weight whether that be through buffs, damage, cleanses or healing. If your thief isn't going to get good value from exposed weakness due to the absence of condi-classes, they would swap to another class which is less reliant on condi's on the boss for it's damage. It seems that you want that to happen to thief (ie: keep the same dps but find a way to nerf exposed weakness) but thief already has low-intensity builds.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Funky.4861 said:

What i'm referring to is organised, role-compressed squads/parties where each player pulls their weight whether that be through buffs, damage, cleanses or healing. If your thief isn't going to get good value from exposed weakness due to the absence of condi-classes, they would swap to another class which is less reliant on condi's on the boss for it's damage. It seems that you want that to happen to thief (ie: keep the same dps but find a way to nerf exposed weakness) but thief already has low-intensity builds.

So you think it is good game design that power thief should only be viable on high condi groups? You do realize not everybody has an army of geared alts? Are you Jonny dps?
So it should be a niche pick? If thief is your only main, you are just kittened? Also I don't get what connection you draw between exposed weakness and LI Builds.

[Funky.4861]

1) It's good game design to reward co-ordinated play. This is an edge-case which rarely sees the light of day outside organised groups and i think that it's ok for a raid build to rely on a raid squad.

2) Not very many will people have an 'army' of geared alts and nowhere did i say they needed that. Power thief is brought for dps (SURPRISE!) and most people have more than one char they play which can fulfill that role. With several classes hitting 41k, there are options for dps which don't rely on 'all condi's on the boss and all boons on me'.

3) Jonny dps goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

4) Thief was always a niche pick.

5) If thief is your only main, that's totally your fault for limiting yourself so much. Going into a raiding group with only one geared char shows a gross lack of flexibility; this is ok for training groups but raids demand more than other content and players need to meet that demand to progress. A good rule of thumb is to have a couple of: dps build,  tank build, heal+buff build, buff+dps build on your acct. Sometimes this is all on one char (eg: firebrand) but most often people will log to fill gaps in the squad- even for strikes.

6)  Few raid bosses have dps-checks and a LI build is usually enough to pass. Exposed weakness is a LI trait because it exploits the condi's which would naturally be on the boss during group play; the thief doesn't have to do anything special as long as there are a couple of condi classes in the squad for less common condi's like torment and confusion.

[bq pd.2148]

9 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said:

1) It's good game design to reward co-ordinated play. This is an edge-case which rarely sees the light of day outside organised groups and i think that it's ok for a raid build to rely on a raid squad.

every dps relies on a group for its bench dps by not having access to permanent  might , fury, quickness, alac - they might have some of it but not all.
exposed weakness and premeditation are not a raid build but thief traits and the game is more than a raid boss.
 

18 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said:

2) Not very many will people have an 'army' of geared alts and nowhere did i say they needed that. Power thief is brought for dps (SURPRISE!) and most people have more than one char they play which can fulfill that role. With several classes hitting 41k, there are options for dps which don't rely on 'all condi's on the boss and all boons on me'.

5) If thief is your only main, that's totally your fault for limiting yourself so much. Going into a raiding group with only one geared char shows a gross lack of flexibility; this is ok for training groups but raids demand more than other content and players need to meet that demand to progress. A good rule of thumb is to have a couple of: dps build,  tank build, heal+buff build, buff+dps build on your acct. Sometimes this is all on one char (eg: firebrand) but most often people will log to fill gaps in the squad- even for strikes.

being able to play multiple classes is fine, but you shouldn't need to swap to a different class with the SAME role just because your damage modifiers depend too much on your group setup.

23 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said:

4) Thief was always a niche pick.

even more reason to change something about it.

[Funky.4861]

True, but if those traits make thief a better choice for certain content that's quite alright. You can take the traits in open world, but won't receive as much benefit from them. I run raid builds outside of raids and rarely have any issues.

 

Swapping to a different class to mitigate the dps loss from a poor composition is what a good/considerate player would do. Knowingly sticking to a sub-optimal class is akin to leeching/being carried. If i knew that i would do 6k more dps on my virtuoso than my thief due to group comp, why would i stay on my thief?

 

Thief is a niche pick in the same way necro is; until harbinger brought group quickness with decent dps, necro in raids was a meme. Now that scourge has alac, it's popping up as groups test their comps. Similarly, thief didn't have much presence in raids outside of a couple of encounters where boonshare was a thing. Now that we have spectre with alac and DE with quickness we can see it more often. 

[bq pd.2148]

i really cant seem to understand your point of view.

why would it be bad for the thief to have less dependency on their group composition?

the only reason that you keep bringing for it is that it supposedly rewards good group play, but does that mean you see being able to play thief without dragging down group performance is a reward? and if so, why on earth should it?

[Vidit.7108]

I think capping the damage could be fine. As it stands neither is really a big issue since a lot of rare boons and conditions are short term anyway, the inconsistency really shines more on deadeye than thief as a whole. 

Removing or reworking these traits is just going to lead to that extra damage going away and I really doubt we'd get back even half of what possible maximum increase is. Changes I would want in exchange for them I don't think this balance team would do. Instead we might just get some other new buff that is difficult to maintain in it's place.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

I could imagine that those traits a la get + power when using weapon x and also those percentage increases will be vanishing sooner or later and replaced with more interactive stuff, like they already did to some degree with acro and shadow arts (yes i know swindlers is still there) they just don’t have the time to do it all in one go.

But yeah could also be not the case, who knows.

[Funky.4861]

@bq pd.2148 You've answered your own question; thief should be chosen without bringing down group performance and rewarded for group optimisation.

If you're asking anet to rework (read: nerf) those two traits they will redistribute the average damage hopefully to the minors, at worst to traits on unrelated lines thus gutting the build completely.

[bq pd.2148]

36 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said:

@bq pd.2148If you're asking anet to rework (read: nerf) those two traits they will redistribute the average damage hopefully to the minors, at worst to traits on unrelated lines thus gutting the build completely.

thank you, that is the answer i was looking for.

of course no one here wants to reduce the performance of a thief in an optimal setting, just limit these two modifiers and put that it into more reliable places. i understand your concerns for anet does not really have a track record of getting things right on their first attempt and adjusting the numbers of underperforming builds can take quite a while unlike overperformering ones that get hotfixed.

Edited July 26, 2023 by bq pd.2148

[Funky.4861]

My concern is that anet will reduce the damage cap of both of those traits (exposed weakness used to be a flat 10% dmg boost if the target had even one condition on them) and move that damage away from the DE and kitten traitlines onto a different traitline, effectively double-nerfing them (unless the relocated the dmg boost to critical strikes traitline).

[SlayerXX.7138]

12 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

My concern is that anet will reduce the damage cap of both of those traits (exposed weakness used to be a flat 10% dmg boost if the target had even one condition on them) and move that damage away from the DE and kitten traitlines onto a different traitline, effectively double-nerfing them (unless the relocated the dmg boost to critical strikes traitline).

But they do nerf everything anyway? Premeditation just got nerfed. Instead of exposed weakness being capped, iron sight got nerfed too. The high potential of multipliers is the reason for all the nerfs in the last patch.

[Funky.4861]

The problem is that it seems anet can't do skill-splits anymore. If they are worried about thieves one-shotting people in competitive modes, apply the nerfs there. The funny thing about that though is that many classes can 'one-shot' and they are not touched. I don't see what the issue is with having high single-target damage (which requires outside influence to maximise) in pve, especially when other classes can achieve the same or higher and offer more (in terms of buffs or utility).

[Szymon.5369]

I mean they didn't even state anything about competitive in context of recent Deadeye tuning, it was pretty explicitly because they wanted QDE lower. Also ANet doesn't need to worry about Thieves oneshotting people in competitive modes, reliance on Trickery (and Shadow Arts) somewhat prevents Thieves from taking Deadly Arts + Critical Strikes and doing actually meaningful damage anyway

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

20 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

The problem is that it seems anet can't do skill-splits anymore. If they are worried about thieves one-shotting people in competitive modes, apply the nerfs there. The funny thing about that though is that many classes can 'one-shot' and they are not touched. I don't see what the issue is with having high single-target damage (which requires outside influence to maximise) in pve, especially when other classes can achieve the same or higher and offer more (in terms of buffs or utility).

Just because of stealth thief isn’t allowed to one-shot.

It is considered unfun by anet to get critted out of stealth, being arrow barraged at 1500 range by soulbeast is fine, because you see the projectiles flying in your face before hitting the ground as a fresh comp player. 

while this sounds like a sarcastic rant, i genuinely think some of those lines aren’t far-fetched.