What relics should have been...

[Astralporing.1957]

42 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Well, Ferocity is already on scholar and precision on deadeye (2 runes who share the same stat with ogre)

If you look at the Ogre, it got 2 components on his 6th bonus, the first is damage (with the +4% damage), the second is sustain (the rock dog basically tanking a bit)

Considering the fact that scholar and deadeye already cover offensive option and that most of the time, you need more ferocity rather than more power (so no one wanting only damage would choose a rune with power on last instead of ferocity), vitality is actually a good choice, all factors combined. 

Nobody wants a vitality 6th tier bonus on an otherwise purely offensive runeset. For defence, there are far better options. Vitality just makes the whole Ogre rune useless compared to alternatives, and to a far bigger degree than it was a case beforehand.

[vares.8457]

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nobody wants a vitality 6th tier bonus on an otherwise purely offensive runeset.

How do you know what everybody wants? I can imagine that some casuals/open world players would want a bit of vitality. There have always been better options for purely offensive runesets. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by vares.8457

[Player.2475]

I haven't found any relics that really benefit me in any way more than the previous rune 6th tier bonuses did. Most of them are triggered by circumstances the classes I play don't have access to, activate effects that don't benefit me or scale with my stats, or are elite-triggered effects that gives me 2 seconds of a buff or the dps equivalent of delivering an extra autoattack once every 20/30 seconds (and my elite has a 60 second cooldown).

Edited August 29, 2023 by Player.2475

[Shuzuru.3651]

13 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nobody wants a vitality 6th tier bonus on an otherwise purely offensive runeset. For defence, there are far better options. Vitality just makes the whole Ogre rune useless compared to alternatives, and to a far bigger degree than it was a case beforehand.

The fact is, it isn't a purely offensive rune from the start, it always was the mostly offensive rune with a bit of sustain, and guess what, it's still is. 

By the way, did you see any other viable option ? 

[Astralporing.1957]

17 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

How do you know what everybody wants? I can imagine that some casuals/open world players would want a bit of vitality. There have always been better options for purely offensive runesets. 

There are also better options for sustain runesets as well. Ogre is a pure noob trap now - may look sensible, but in reality is a purely inferior option no matter what playstyle you might want. And if there's one thing this game does not need it would be more noob traps like that.

16 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

The fact is, it isn't a purely offensive rune from the start, it always was the mostly offensive rune with a bit of sustain, and guess what, it's still is. 

...what bit of sustain? It had power, ferocity, and damage bonus. It was a pure dps rune, and a very good one at that - just slightly inferior to Scholars. It was not used as a defensive option, it was used as a cheap scholar replacement.

[vares.8457]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

but in reality is a purely inferior option no matter what playstyle you might want.

It was inferior even before. As far as I know it was never meta for any DPS build. Scholar has always been the better option for DPS. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by vares.8457

[Shuzuru.3651]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

what bit of sustain? It had power, ferocity, and damage bonus. It was a pure dps rune, and a very good one at that - just slightly inferior to Scholars. It was not used as a defensive option, it was used as a cheap scholar replacement.

Well, the pet, like I said, it tanked stuff quite well actually and providing a more sustainable option for open world than scholar, actually. 

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

It was inferior even before. As far as I know it was never meta for any DPS build. Scholar has always been the better option for DPS. 

Sure. And now it's even worse than that. A change that in theory was supposed to make more runes useful resulted in the exact opposite, just making more runesets useless.

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure. And now it's even worse than that. A change that in theory was supposed to make more runes useful resulted in the exact opposite, just making more runesets useless.

Most runes haven’t been very useful before. There was always a handful of runes that were meta. This didn’t change so I don’t understand your crying. 
But maybe now more players will stop playing off meta builds with bad runes. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by vares.8457

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, vares.8457 said:

Most runes haven’t been very useful before.

Yes, and one of the reasons behind that change was supposedly to allow for a wider variety of runes to become useful. And yet the opposite happened.

1 hour ago, vares.8457 said:

Bir maybe now more players will stop playing off meta builds with bad runes. 

Nah, people that were running bad runes before will still run them now. The only difference is that some people that had decent runes before may end up running  bad runes now.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[vares.8457]

16 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, and one of the reasons behind that change was supposedly to allow for a wider variety of runes to become useful. And yet the opposite happened.

Do we know that already one week after launch? You have some data that shows what happened? Then please share it. 

[Astralporing.1957]

14 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Do we know that already one week after launch? You have some data that shows what happened? Then please share it. 

Yes. How? It's called having basic understanding of the stat system. It's even easier now to compare runes with each other than before, because we do not have to factor in the special 6th rune bonus. It's pure stat vs stat comparison. I.E we know that Rune of the Chronomancer is strictly inferior to Rune of the Pack., which makes the former useless. You don't need to wait for weeks to see things like that.

[vares.8457]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. How? It's called having basic understanding of the stat system. It's even easier now to compare runes with each other than before, because we do not have to factor in the special 6th rune bonus. It's pure stat vs stat comparison. I.E we know that Rune of the Chronomancer is strictly inferior to Rune of the Pack., which makes the former useless. You don't need to wait for weeks to see things like that.

So you don’t have any data to support it, thought so. I rather wait for all sites to update the meta builds than to jump to conclusions. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by vares.8457

[Ashantara.8731]

8 hours ago, Kalibri.5861 said:

Honestly, the only thing I really sort of understand people being upset about losing is the summons.

I couldn't care less about those. 😄

My biggest gripe is about the fact that Relic conditions don't work constistently across the field ("on using an elite skill", "on using a healing skill", etc), as they often don't proc when they should. Some skills that proc the Relic effect on land don't proc it underwater, is another problem I have.
 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Shuzuru.3651]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, and one of the reasons behind that change was supposedly to allow for a wider variety of runes to become useful. And yet the opposite happened.

Nah, people that were running bad runes before will still run them now. The only difference is that some people that had decent runes before may end up running  bad runes now.

Have you even checked any site talking about build since the change? 

I would assume that no, otherwise, you would have see that a wider range of runes are being used, now.

Thanks to the change, there are now more alternative for scholar and monk in the meta (since their 6th bonus where putting them here). 

The rest didn't change much since condi build tend to use rune for the stat and not the 6th bonus.

[Nekos.3649]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:29 PM, Xelqypla.6817 said:

It's fine.

It's nice not being forced to choose between Stats and the set power. The complaints are far overblown, especially when you compare them to balance changes to abilities.

this, the problem is some missing 6 bonus

[Kalibri.5861]

Once again, if everyone has the same set of widgets to use to assemble their build, what you get to do now is find your new favourite widget, and then, ideally, go play the game. Find the good one and move on. Someone else can find their favourite too. Even if ArenaNet has made some 'strictly infererior' sets (which I think is pretty subjective), as has already been said, there were plenty of rune sets that didn't get much play before. So what difference does it make? We're all playing with the same blocks right now, folks. Same playing field.

That aside, there were some pretty major systems changes and additions here, obviously. Whenever you have major changes, you're bound to see bugs. If there are actual bugs with certain relics, then report them. Even suggest changes or new relics here, sure. But that doesn't mean they should revert the new system, and it doesn't mean it's fundamentally bad.

Still so confusing to me to see such aggressively passionate anger for something that gives you more options and choice. 🙄

[nordicmeatball.1485]

6 hours ago, Kalibri.5861 said:

Once again, if everyone has the same set of widgets to use to assemble their build, what you get to do now is find your new favourite widget, and then, ideally, go play the game. Find the good one and move on. Someone else can find their favourite too. Even if ArenaNet has made some 'strictly infererior' sets (which I think is pretty subjective), as has already been said, there were plenty of rune sets that didn't get much play before. So what difference does it make? We're all playing with the same blocks right now, folks. Same playing field.

Still so confusing to me to see such aggressively passionate anger for something that gives you more options and choice. 🙄

More choice? But heaps of the relics you get in the box labeled "Condition damage" that you get for every character upon logging into them are just bit AOE blasts. One was a frost blast that chilled stuff, one was the AOE fear blast from the nightmare rune set, and there was another one I can't remember.

But they all feel very lackluster compared to to the relic of aristocracy, which straight up pumps up your condition damage numbers. In fact it feels like the only good one in that whole box.

[Linken.6345]

19 minutes ago, nordicmeatball.1485 said:

More choice? But heaps of the relics you get in the box labeled "Condition damage" that you get for every character upon logging into them are just bit AOE blasts. One was a frost blast that chilled stuff, one was the AOE fear blast from the nightmare rune set, and there was another one I can't remember.

But they all feel very lackluster compared to to the relic of aristocracy, which straight up pumps up your condition damage numbers. In fact it feels like the only good one in that whole box.

And that is if you can pump out weakness and/or vulnerability to make use of the relic.

[nordicmeatball.1485]

13 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

And that is if you can pump out weakness and/or vulnerability to make use of the relic.

Great point. I didn't even think of that. A big ol AOE isn't going to do that much if the target isn't vulnerable to begin with.

[Kalibri.5861]

Yeah, and I think your view is very limited to stats over strategy. When you create a build, part of what you have to consider is synergy. Obviously you're not going to slot something that procs on an effect you can't activate, but I can definitely think of an engineer build that would pretty constantly be running around with five stacks from Aristocracy, no problem.

A lot of the condition box relics seem like they could be very useful to me, and some of them are just a lot more (ahem) conditional than others. But that's okay - when you create a build, once again, you have to play to its synergies. I don't play condition builds much, but even I can see some potentially really awesome synergies there. I feel like people are looking for flat stat increases and aren't seeing anything past that, which is selling the whole system very short. The silly thing is that you already got that because now your relic effect is on top of the newly-extra stats from the sixth rune, which is (hooray) entirely up to you to choose.

If the collective outrage is keeping you from finding fun in this system, then I think that's a huge shame, and that you should maybe take a breath and a break. But I honestly believe that it's a fantastic change. Yes, there will be bugs, and yes, there will be balance passes. Feel free to criticise, but the system is a net benefit for players and it will get better with time.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Kalibri.5861 said:

Yeah, and I think your view is very limited to stats over strategy. When you create a build, part of what you have to consider is synergy. Obviously you're not going to slot something that procs on an effect you can't activate, but I can definitely think of an engineer build that would pretty constantly be running around with five stacks from Aristocracy, no problem.

A lot of the condition box relics seem like they could be very useful to me, and some of them are just a lot more (ahem) conditional than others. But that's okay - when you create a build, once again, you have to play to its synergies. I don't play condition builds much, but even I can see some potentially really awesome synergies there. I feel like people are looking for flat stat increases and aren't seeing anything past that, which is selling the whole system very short. The silly thing is that you already got that because now your relic effect is on top of the newly-extra stats from the sixth rune, which is (hooray) entirely up to you to choose.

If the collective outrage is keeping you from finding fun in this system, then I think that's a huge shame, and that you should maybe take a breath and a break. But I honestly believe that it's a fantastic change. Yes, there will be bugs, and yes, there will be balance passes. Feel free to criticise, but the system is a net benefit for players and it will get better with time.

There aren't any amazing synergies for condi builds among core relics. Those options may look nice on the surface, but do not actually do much. Aristocracy is pretty much the only one worth taking (and not even for all of the builds). Expansion relics add two more options, but one of them is likely gonna get nerfed hard soon. All the rest is pretty much a padding to make it seem as if there were more options that we've actually received.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Kalibri.5861]

Even if that were the case, would that actually mean that the relic system overall needs to be reverted, or just that some individual relics themselves need tweaking?

Edited August 30, 2023 by Kalibri.5861