I just had the most uncomfortable experience in GW2 since game launch

[Bladestrom.6425]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

Yes and from the information we got the commander was not toxic about it so why do you keep harping on with this comment?

I think you two are obsessing over winning an argument you have on your head.  bye.

[Sobx.1758]

...or maybe we just read your posts calling people toxic for something you now... agree is ok to do.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Nimris.3781]

54 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Neither require an obnoxious response right?  Il all it look was the leader to quietly whisper the guy and say sorry mate you are not hitting the mark i need to let you go etc etc, rather than a toxic attitude that doesn't do anything for the game apart from put of players from tuned  instanced content.

why do you constantly turn around situation OP's described? comm asked his role on /squad as he was sorting roles, but later comm whispered to him that he is doing subpar dps, OP ignored that. also OP was the one that was rude and tell comm that "he has got some issues"

51 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

read the Op post again., indeed read the title of the thread.  He was berated in chat, that's toxic and not needed, and you know fine well that is not an uncommon occurrence in raids and tuned strikes.

You think obnoxious behaviour should ever be tolerated, or worse normalised

maybe you should read OP post again? i dont want to ping OP again, but this is from his post:

Quote

Strikes go fine. My damage is good. At last one, Boneskinner, I get a whisper from commander saying I shouldn't say I'm dps when my dps is lower than some alac in the group. I figure the guy is looking at some of those dps tracking mods and comparing me to a probably better player. But like, I know I'm doing good, the dude is being pedantic, and at this point very annoying considering I've done a bazillion strike runs and never had any issues. Boneskinner goes well, no problems from me, good damage, didn't down once, helped rez downed players, Boneskinner dead fast.

I enter DS, decide to whisper back to the commander - "I'm doing fine, you've got some issues friend"

comm whispered OP that he is doing poorly, what else do you expect comm to do? take him to golem? check logs with him and give personal guidance?

also i agree with you, obnoxious behaviour should not be tolerated, thats why OP got kicked after his rude response.

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 hour ago, Nimris.3781 said:

comm whispered OP that he is doing poorly, what else do you expect comm to do? take him to golem? check logs with him and give personal guidance?

also i agree with you, obnoxious behaviour should not be tolerated, thats why OP got kicked after his rude response.

Maybe he exaggerated maybe he didn't that's why its worth abstracting and discussing the problem, I assumed he was genuine, maybe he was tilted (which i acknowledge) but its a topic worth discussing.  This does happen in PUGS and there is more than 1 root cause,  BOTH because players ignore requirements and under perform to a degree that is fatally detrimental to the group AND people including raid leaders getting tilted with people when they shouldn't.  Its also worth noting players don't always know if they are good enough but may think they do, that's not malicious - it can be an unknown unknown for them.

To summarise, surely this is not contentious:

- Players should be genuine when they join on a raid group with requirements.  However Its a given some players may unmaliciously underperform.
- Raid leaders need to have a realistic expectation for players unless they explicitly specify requirements.  E.g if a leader wants above average dps needed for target content, ask for it.
- Don't assume the worse about people and recognise when you are tilted, for e.g look at this thread with the ad hominins etc.
- Don't be toxic or obnoxious, its not needed in any circumstance including the above.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Linken.6345]

18 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Maybe he exaggerated maybe he didn't that's why its worth abstracting and discussing the problem, I assumed he was genuine, maybe he was tilted (which i acknowledge) but its a topic worth discussing.  This does happen in PUGS and there is more than 1 root cause,  BOTH because players ignore requirements and under perform to a degree that is fatally detrimental to the group AND people including raid leaders getting tilted with people when they shouldn't.  Its also worth noting players don't always know if they are good enough but may think they do, that's not malicious - it can be an unknown unknown for them.

To summarise, surely this is not contentious:

- Players should be genuine when they join on a raid group with requirements.  However Its a given some players may unmaliciously underperform.
- Raid leaders need to have a realistic expectation for players unless they explicitly specify requirements.  E.g if a leader wants above average dps, ask for it.
- Don't assume the worse about people and recognise when you are tilted, for e.g look at this thread with the ad hominins etc.
- Don't be toxic or obnoxious, its not needed in any circumstance including the above.

 

 

 

 

 

You do know that just asking for dps is already expecting above average right?

There are all welcome groups for the sub 10k dpsers out there, I know I join those when I need a strike done on my core only alt accounts.

Im upfront that my dps wont be great but I can do green tank to make up for it in old lions court.

Edit

I mean OP even said they tried to start their own squad but it took to long so they are already doing better then 95% of the people out there.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Bladestrom.6425]

ive clarified

 

  E.g if a leader wants above average dps needed for target content, ask for it.  So if a raid boss needs 20k per person an average, that's the reasonable min expectation.

Edited September 9, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Linken.6345]

4 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

ive clarified

 

  E.g if a leader wants above average dps needed for target content, ask for it.

So what is average dps in your oppinion?

5k, 10k, 15k, 20k?

I mean we must know that so we have a base line to know if we need to ask or not right?

edit

If we ask for dps and 5 out of 6 dps are 20-40k the last one is 8-12k

Is the last guy realy doing the role when its half to 1/4th of the other guys?

We still clear content sure but 1 is being carried by the other 5

Edited September 9, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Bladestrom.6425]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

So what is average dps in your oppinion?

5k, 10k, 15k, 20k?

I mean we must know that so we have a base line to know if we need to ask or not right?

?  its the average for every fight ie statistically from historical metrics. 

[Linken.6345]

Just now, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

?  its the average for every fight ie statistically from historical metrics. 

Well the lfg message would be so long that noone would bother to read it and it would fail in the end.

We dont want to read w1-4 vg 25k dps, goresavl 24k dps, sabetha 25k, sloth 30k, trio 15k, matthias 24k, escort 15k, kc 35k, xera 25k, carin 22k, mo 32k, sama 20k and deimos 24k.

Yea that lfg is much better then w1-4 60kp dps

[Nimris.3781]

12 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Its also worth noting players don't always know if they are good enough but may think they do, that's not malicious - it can be an unknown unknown for them.

"Ignorance of law excuses no one from compliance therewith". it wasnt OP, not being sure he well perfrom good enough, it was OP being sure he is doing completly fine, despite numbers proving otherwise and being rude to comm saying he had some issues. being ignorant is malicious in this case.

20 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

raid leaders getting tilted with people when they shouldn't

who would not kick OP in a scenario like this? squad leader wasnt tilted, after comm wrote to someone underperforming he got a reply saying "i am doing fine, you have got some issues". i know people that wouldnt bother pointing out someone is underperforming, but i am sure all of them would just kick OP after reply like this.

26 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

- Players should be genuine when they join on a raid group with requirements.  However Its a given some players may unmaliciously underperform.
- Raid leaders need to have a realistic expectation for players unless they explicitly specify requirements.  E.g if a leader wants above average dps, ask for it.
- Don't assume the worse about people and recognise when you are tilted, for e.g look at this thread with the ad hominins etc.
- Don't be toxic or obnoxious, its not needed in any circumstance including the above.

while i agree on these points, the only person that was toxic was OP, and not becouse of his dps, but everything else he did (not stating his role, joining with something that was not asked for, being ignorant and most importantly being rude)

[Bladestrom.6425]

honestly argue blue is pink for the sake or argument.

[Linken.6345]

Just now, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

honestly argue blue is pink for the sake or argument.

No just trying to show you what your beliefs would look like in practise

[rawisz.6439]

3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

honestly argue blue is pink for the sake or argument.

You are making some strange mental gymnastic in this topic, changing your statments every other post. In one hand you say that its okey to kick someone who clearly underperform on other you are saying that comander in that case was toxic. First you were saying that its toxic because he kicked OP for low dps, later you switched to saying that its "obnoxious behaviour" because the way he spoked to him. "I shouldn't say I'm dps when my dps is lower than some alac in the group." - which part of this sentence is rude/toxic/obnoxious? He just stated fact nothing more.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

42 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

?  its the average for every fight ie statistically from historical metrics. 

Considering how the potential DPS changed along the years I'd love to know how one would figure out the average when 5+ years ago 30k was about the highest possible DPS while right now 30k is below boonDPS. 2 years ago 40k DPS was a very high number that only a few builds could reach if played perfectly(Power Holo for example) or under right conditions(Virtues DH) and right now most DPS builds bench atleast 40k.

[Nimris.3781]

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

?  its the average for every fight ie statistically from historical metrics. 

whats the point of taking any historical data and apply statistical metrics if any balance patch makes past numbers irrelevant?

1 hour ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

E.g if a leader wants above average dps needed for target content, ask for it.  So if a raid boss needs 20k per person an average, that's the reasonable min expectation

i think all can agree that asking dps to do more than support-dps is reasonable expectation. SotO disbalance aside, most of the time support dps has benchmarks of about ~70-80% of what pure dps can do so even if dps doesnt have infusions, dont execute perfect rotation and is not playing top meta class, he should still be able to do more than support.

and comm in OP post pointed out that OP is doing less than support. it was perfectly reasonable request and OP failed to fulfil it.

[Zohane.7208]

2 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

i think all can agree that asking dps to do more than support-dps is reasonable expectation. SotO disbalance aside, most of the time support dps has benchmarks of about ~70-80% of what pure dps can do so even if dps doesnt have infusions, dont execute perfect rotation and is not playing top meta class, he should still be able to do more than support.

and comm in OP post pointed out that OP is doing less than support. it was perfectly reasonable request and OP failed to fulfil it.

Herein lies the problem, really. There seems to be 2 basic mindsets among people - one being that it's ok to call out people (or at least whisper them) when they're under-performing, and possibly even kick if it doesn't improve - and the other mindeset basically thinks all that is toxic and that a group should never kick and maybe never even call out people for under-performing, "as long as the squad can finish it's all fine". I honestly don't think there will ever be one correct answer to this since it's a matter of opinion.

(I've been called out quite a few times for low dps and sometimes even gotten kicked for it, but I still think that's the right way - if I'm not pulling my weight in the squad I don't belong there.)

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

Ok, so what I'll do from now on is just KICK people who are under performing, without saying anything to them, because that would be "TOXIC."

So you'll get kicked from the Squad, and you won't know why.

And I won't respond to your whispers, asking why you were kicked, because anything I say might be construed as "TOXIC."

That might now be what you want, but that's what will happen if what you all are advocating becomes the norm.

[Linken.6345]

24 minutes ago, Zohane.7208 said:

Herein lies the problem, really. There seems to be 2 basic mindsets among people - one being that it's ok to call out people (or at least whisper them) when they're under-performing, and possibly even kick if it doesn't improve - and the other mindeset basically thinks all that is toxic and that a group should never kick and maybe never even call out people for under-performing, "as long as the squad can finish it's all fine". I honestly don't think there will ever be one correct answer to this since it's a matter of opinion.

(I've been called out quite a few times for low dps and sometimes even gotten kicked for it, but I still think that's the right way - if I'm not pulling my weight in the squad I don't belong there.)

And thats why you got the 2qdps/adps(2 heals) 6 dps squads and the all welcome squads please know mechanics.

If you dont want to get kicked join all welcome squads or make your own all welcome squad and watch it fill quickly.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:47 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

You'd rather be -from your perspective- "randomly" kicked than knowing why you got kicked? By what logic?

Being randomly kicked is preferred to witnessing someone bawling their insecurities.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

25 minutes ago, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

Being randomly kicked is preferred to witnessing someone bawling their insecurities.

Telling people they should do their role is now being insecure. Lovely.

[Linken.6345]

3 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Telling people they should do their role is now being insecure. Lovely.

Yea need to get that jab in there the play it your way is not applicable for anyone else but the low effort guys sadly.

[Bladestrom.6425]

This has really turned into an echo chamber by a couple people with zero critical thinking or reflection, instead its a who can win the words war and prove the OP is wrong so therefore everything is perfect game, with an undercurrent of elitism, for e.g 'low effort guys' by previous poster. 

The vast vast majority of gw2 players avoid tuned content like the plague, and this thread shows why. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

16 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

This has really turned into an echo chamber by a couple people with zero critical thinking or reflection, instead its a who can win the words war and prove the OP is wrong so therefore everything is perfect game, with an undercurrent of elitism, for e.g 'low effort guys' by previous poster. 

The vast vast majority of gw2 players avoid tuned content like the plague, and this thread shows why. 

I assume you consider yourself part of that "couple of people" considering you jumping at the conclusion that anyone who dares to kick a person that is not performing well enough is toxic, hurling insults at others, changing arguments with each comment.

The early comments were each criticising both parties for what was described and then you jumped in with an argument that can only really be summarised as "toxic if you do it, fine if I do it"

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

Being randomly kicked is preferred to witnessing someone bawling their insecurities.

Nothing about informing you why you're kicked from the squad is somehow a sign of someone else's insecurities.

3 hours ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

This has really turned into an echo chamber by a couple people with zero critical thinking or reflection, instead its a who can win the words war and prove the OP is wrong so therefore everything is perfect game, with an undercurrent of elitism, for e.g 'low effort guys' by previous poster. 

The vast vast majority of gw2 players avoid tuned content like the plague, and this thread shows why. 

Isn't it fun how you said "bye" (possibly more than once, but won't go back to check) and now you're back (fast!) without addressing what other people said, but instead with the empty claim about echo chamber and another baseless strawman how "everything is perfect game since OP is wrong"? I think you doing that is saying enough about who counted on having an echo chamber, but didn't get one.

Ah -and of course it's perfectly justified when you keep calling people "toxic" and "elitist" throughout this thread, but the moment you see someone write "low effort guys" somehow it's just... proving you right or something. 🙃

Edited September 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Junkpile.7439]

For GW2 PvE:er every strike mission is like WoW world first try. Good thread. 😆