What's Renegade's intended purpose in PvP now?

[Yasai.3549]

7 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

i dunno if it's actually gonna be worth anything, but the new relic of zakiros is... potentially really silly for an elite that gets as much free crit as this one
if you press hammers you're getting like 300 hp/s from them via the built-in heal and the crit damage conversion from the relic (i average ~50 healing per hit, plus the 53 it does, and it hits around 3x a second)
while also getting 20% damage reduction
plus whatever you're doing with other attacks

you could swap amulet/runes for 100% crit even when brutal momentum isn't up, but idk if it'd be worth it

extremely nice for being able to shrug off stray hits/condis, really not wanting to become some infinite sustain god that only dies if it gets bursted tho, assuming it gets further buffs in june which seems highly likely

You can already heal sufficiently by doing the whole Soulcleave dump due to its Lifesteal. 

The relic that cleanses non damaging conditions on evade however can be extremely useful when coupled with Salvation to quickly shrug off crippling conditions that would severely hinder the player. (things like Weakness, Cripple, Chill, Blind especially are all enemies of Revenant players) 

[Shagie.7612]

Charged Mists doesn't exist in PvP, you can't dump energy that easily without its extra.
It's also not nearly as much as WvW can get without Cele.

Playing Salvation over Dev/Invo is asking to throw away all your damage for a minor amount of extra survivability, tbh.

That relic's actually quite nice for bursty builds that get wrecked by weakness/blind/aegis though, wonder if you'll see like mesmers pick it up.

[Shagie.7612]

Okey dokey friends, season officially ends tomorrow, so wall of text before the big patch.

I kinda lost steam halfway through and struggled to play, but I finished it in plat as purely condi renegade. Not super high above it, cause I tanked a bunch since the season required 165 games instead of the normal 150 and I planned incredibly poorly, but NA only has like 100 plat players anyways so I'm decently happy about it. I didn't finish all the games in EU cause it's exhausting, but stayed mostly in plat there as well.
I'm pretty confident in saying that I'm very likely the only person playing it at that rating consistently, almost certainly on NA, but probably EU too, and that I have a decent grasp on why Renegade, and especially Condi Ren, struggles so much, both in the modern game and since its creation.

Anyways, I don't think the changes coming with the patch on Tuesday are going to be that significant UNLESS Vindication's healing is very large, but I see that as causing a lot of troublesome balance if it is. Improvements, for sure, but significant changes to its interaction with the meta? Doesn't seem as likely.

Like, if I land an Icerazor/Razorclaw combo in a teamfight am I now basically immortal for the next 15s or however long? Does it even work on condi damage? Their wording sounded like it, but who knows until it happens.
I fully believe Renegade needs better help surviving in PvP, but I really enjoy how it plays currently as a flighty, kiting spec and don't want the best strategy to be facetank to trade damage. I think blinds, blocks/aegis, and cleanses would be a much better solution to improving it. Regardless, it's definitely a great help when it comes to shrugging off stray damage, so that's welcome.
If it's not very good sustain then poor WvW Ren players just lost like all their damage for some weak heals, and PvP won't change in that aspect at all lol

I don't think the giga nerf to Citadel Bombardment's damage/burning was warranted in exchange for making it more reliable, it's still a decently expensive, very telegraphed, very delayed stationary skill, it should be very scary.

I think there's a very obvious problem with the reworked Kalla design in terms of energy costs, cooldowns, and their purpose. Renegade has no situational utility beyond the stunbreak (which is on a large delay from when the cast finishes anyways unlike something like Reaver's Rage), it's a pure damage spec that isn't given more damage than everyone else in exchange for what it lacks.
I don't think the constant energy cost reductions can fix that very well, and I don't think just giving it a bajillionty damage would be very good design either. I think it's time to create utility through Citadel Orders/traits, if another Kalla rework isn't on the table.

I could be wrong, and I'd love to actually win match ups when I land lots of stuff and avoid lots of theirs, which you're often not rewarded with currently, but the changes coming to both Renegade and Herald seem to be pretty underwhelming for two elites that have been dramatically underperforming for a very long time now.

[Sonderm.4639]

On 6/24/2024 at 5:53 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

If it's not very good sustain then poor WvW Ren players just lost like all their damage for some weak heals

2% damage converted to healing per stack...

Edit: 1% in PVE

Edited June 25 by Sonderm.4639

[arazoth.7290]

20 minutes ago, Sonderm.4639 said:

2% damage converted to healing per stack...

Edit: 1% in PVE

It's OP !!!!!!

[Sonderm.4639]

4 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

It's OP !!!!!!

Unkillable. Losing 25 might stacks was worth it.

[Chiral.8915]

LOL, Vindication will be nerfed in WvW. Probably mid-week patch lol....to 0.5% per stack of Kalla's favor. 

[Sonderm.4639]

Because you heal the damage of a single autoattack every 20k damage you land?

[Chiral.8915]

Just now, Sonderm.4639 said:

Because you heal the damage of a single autoattack every 20k damage you land?

No, because Renegade (historically) has not been allowed to have nice things in competitive play 🤣 

[Shagie.7612]

Did a handful of games as both power and condi.
It's not bad, if you wear Zakiros as power you can heal quite a bit. Jalis hammers heal for a ton and give you damage reduction on top of that. It's not saving you from getting w keyed by the other team, I certainly don't think it'll return you to the old Renegod days (and that's a good thing), but in terms of extended fights, it's pretty decent.
It's great for shrugging off stray shots and condi though, which is nice. Lets you stick around on the edges of a fight a little better.

I'm not sure whether or not it's gonna make a significant difference yet. It's not the change I would have preferred, quite honestly, but I'll take it considering the alternative is being abandoned for 90% of the spec's lifetime.

My only real complaint at this point is that condi rev in general struggles with its damage sticking because of a lack of cover condis and condi spread. I also don't think torment is a very good condition anymore since they flipped the conditional effect, but those aren't really Renegade specific problems.

[Yasai.3549]

Zakiros feels redundant for healing, the 10% from Vindication is really legit, along with Jalis Hammers. 

What's amazing is being a decent mid node fighter with Soulcleave turned on and GS Power build. I really enjoy running Retribution with the new All for One. 

Only thing I do miss is in WvW where I have to keep pressing F2 to upkeep Might but since I use Cele on Renegade in WvW, I can hit up to 20 Might which is fine for burst windows. I can hit 25 Might if I used Lasting Legacy but I lose the lifestealing from Vindication.

Also worthy a mention that Citadel Bombardment is pretty legit now. Faster and more focused, it actually deals the damage you want, as opposed to old one realistically only getting half its missiles to hit. The damage nerf to it could have been a preemptive nerf but I feel like we should have been allowed to test it all the same at any rate. It's also still a costly button to press so unless you're like, pressuring Downs or bombarding Siege, you will never touch this in real combat against 1 v 1. 

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

My only real complaint at this point is that condi rev in general struggles with its damage sticking because of a lack of cover condis and condi spread. I also don't think torment is a very good condition anymore since they flipped the conditional effect, but those aren't really Renegade specific problems.

 

What is your condi spread looking like on cRen? I've seen this criticism several times but I've never felt particularly lacking in cover condis *at least* on condi herald (ie torment, poison, weakness, chill, burn, vuln, blind). I can imagine Ren struggles more, but to me the issue of "condis sticking" is more of a cleanse-inflation issue than condi Rev not having enough cover. Only pain-point for cover condis was the removal of slow from axe, but even then it still exists on Song of the Mists.

 

Though I can imagine there's a middle ground to be reached. Not saying I'm against slight increases to weapon condi durations (even though mace charges exist and Diabolic inferno durations are phat) or careful additions of new condis, but anything creeping to Condi Zerk levels is v cringe.

[Shagie.7612]

2 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

What is your condi spread looking like on cRen? I've seen this criticism several times but I've never felt particularly lacking in cover condis *at least* on condi herald (ie torment, poison, weakness, chill, burn, vuln, blind).

You can get the same as Ren, when in Mallyx/mace, but the vuln, immob and chill from Kalla skills aren't that long cause there's no expertise.

Like, 90% of your damage is bleed/torment, and something like Shadow Arts completely and utterly negates your pressure. The deadeye just puts you into the dirt over and over, the condi reaper is you but better, that kinda stuff.

It's not just cover condi but also that Ren is a relatively burst application heavy class because of a combination of energy, cooldowns, Kalla summons being one and dones, and so it lacks things like sustained applications like an actual good condi build like CReaper, meaning proper cleansing is more damaging to you than someone else.

Up until now, it didn't really have some of the characteristics like tankiness, heavy CC, heavy cleanse, or transfer that most condi builds do, even with rabid amulet, which also hurt your ability to continually pressure. That might change with the Vindication change, I'm not sure yet.

[Yasai.3549]

5 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

My only real complaint at this point is that condi rev in general struggles with its damage sticking because of a lack of cover condis and condi spread. I also don't think torment is a very good condition anymore since they flipped the conditional effect, but those aren't really Renegade specific problems.

Correct, this is actually a Corruption and Mallyx problem. 

Mallyx used to have much more Condition application with their old leap and had sustained Condition application using EtD. (EtD also used to increase all your stats, making you do more damage, take more damage, but that's another topic) 

Corruption used to apply more Conditions via Rampant Vex (Torment on Crit chance), Venom Enchancement (Inflict Poison when you inflict Torment).

If we never get Rampant Vex and old Condi tanking back, we should at least get Venom Enchancement back because it helped round out Revenant's Condi application. Honestly just replace Replenishing Despair, it has very little use in every mode right now. 

Edited June 26 by Yasai.3549

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

we should at least get Venom Enchancement back because it helped round out Revenant's Condi application.

I would LOVE to have something that could stick to SA thieves (aka every thief because that trait line is bananas), even if it's not super frequent.
Abyssal Chill just doesn't cut it.

As it stands like, say you land a decent amount of bleeds/torment on a thief, and the thief starts to pop something to go into stealth.
Even if you time your Sevenshot/Bloodbane Path to land after they dodge and while they're in stealth, they take like one tick of it before it's off thanks to Shadow's Embrace. They removed both your damaging conditions with one dodge/blackpowder+bound/whatever, while your ability to remove their condis or recover from their strike is way, way less effective. You have no way to counterpressure them because of it.

I wouldn't mind that situation being just like, a losing match up, but you lose that as power too. Sword/dagger beats you in melee, rifle beats shortbow. They're not weak to you either way. I think that's really silly.
It doesn't just apply to thief, it's almost all the specs that have strong condi removal and still have decent uptime on blocks/blinds/evades, it's just the most infuriating one lol

That and the lack of Rampant Vex are part of what makes it infeasible to run Rabid Amulet, because your only hope of actually hurting them is taking advantage of Shortbow and Mace's strong power coefficients through Carrion.

Good condition builds don't have that problem. We'll see if Vindication and the Herald buffs are enough to make up for that for condi Rev.

[Yasai.3549]

13 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

We'll see if Vindication and the Herald buffs are enough to make up for that for condi Rev.

Vindication? No. It's basically nerfed into a defensive trait. I actually use it in small scale and zerg surfing now because that heal plus the cleaving of Soulcleave + Summons actually makes the heal worth it, especially if you're in Celestial gear. For PvP, if you're playing bunker with Retribution, Vindication is good too for just sustaining on point with Jalis Hammers. 

If you want actual damage now, you have to use Lasting Legacy for that +5% Condi and Crit damage from enhanced Fervor, as well as +5 Might from F2 which thankfully they reduced the cost of in PvP. So right now I just run Kalla/Jalis and sit on mid, or else I'm playing Core Rev or Herald to +1 Sidenode. 

Herald actually not a bad change at all, because it makes Glint a more defensive Legend (which she already was anyways) and the Cleanse baked into True Nature makes it great for ditching Staff once and for all and go Swords/Greatsword (which previously was a risky load because of lack of burst healing from Consume if you want to run Shield Condi Cleanse or just running Shieldless) 

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

 Herald buffs are enough to make up for that for condi Rev.

From pvp atleast,

Herald noting changed much except the group condi cleanse in dragon stance. 

condi Renegade you have littleeee bit extra, but still a joke. It's a plaster on the real problems which they don't listen at all 🤷.

You could run power rene with zakiros relic + that trait for 20% yes..., but power has less sustain then condi bc no weakness condi mitigation.

But I guess in group fights it could survive now little bit longer as long they don't too much hard focus you

Edited June 26 by arazoth.7290

[vilesoldier.9826]

6 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Correct, this is actually a Corruption and Mallyx problem. 

Mallyx used to have much more Condition application with their old leap and had sustained Condition application using EtD. (EtD also used to increase all your stats, making you do more damage, take more damage, but that's another topic) 

 

You can say this is a Corruption issue, with all the condi-focused traits we've lost, but I don't think you can *in good faith* say that Mallyx has gotten worse in its condi application.

 

Banish Enchantment - Range and boons removed have only improved over the years. Removal of confusion was the correct decision (5 stacks??).

Call to Anguish - Old leap (and even older non-leap aoe) was extremely inconsistent. You had 4 torment pulses, but no one stood in aoe for that long, and a 3/4s animation lock with no restriction on enemy movement meant free interrupts for days. I will take a larger radius cc leap 1000 times over.

Embrace the Darkness - For me, this is the crowning achievement of Mallyx changes. +15% to all stats and unblockable were the only standouts on the old elite, decent but what they gave us instead adds way more synergy and more burst application ONTOP of sustained application. Extra torment on energy use + mobile dark field is so goated and I will thank Anet every time I use it 🙏

 

Now Corruption of course, is a different story. And tbh looking back at the older traitline versions it's actually insane how many interactions with condi have been removed. I miss Bolstered Anguish, Opportune Extraction, and Rampant Vex.

[Shagie.7612]

Yo this is is entirely me whining and being really petty, but how come Citadel Bombardment got nerfed by 50%/33% on both power and condi in order to make it more reliable but Solar Storm, Guardian's spear 4, does just as much damage pre-nerf, cleanses, gives them their special weapon mechanic, has a larger radius, and no cost to it like energy, despite having the same CD?

Don't get me wrong, it's a weapon skill vs a profession mechanic so they're not super equivalent, but it's a bit upsetting to be like "oh yeah Guard just got a better Citadel Bombardment lol blue class rules"

Anyways spear won't fix what makes condi builds bad on Rev, Renegade has no blocks/blinds/evades or cleanses still, and Kalla has zero situational utility and a terrible stunbreak. Those are always going to be problems and Vindication can't fix it in making it playable in competitive, though it certainly helps.

That's about all I have left to say for now.

Edited June 28 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Yo this is is entirely me whining and being really petty, but how come Citadel Bombardment got nerfed by 50%/33% on both power and condi in order to make it more reliable but Solar Storm, Guardian's spear 4, does just as much damage pre-nerf, cleanses, gives them their special weapon mechanic, has a larger radius, and no cost to it like energy, despite having the same CD?

Don't get me wrong, it's a weapon skill vs a profession mechanic so they're not super equivalent, but it's a bit upsetting to be like "oh yeah Guard just got a better Citadel Bombardment lol blue class rules"

Anyways spear won't fix what makes condi builds bad on Rev, Renegade has no blocks/blinds/evades or cleanses still, and Kalla has zero situational utility and a terrible stunbreak. Those are always going to be problems and Vindication can't fix it in making it playable in competitive, though it certainly helps.

That's about all I have left to say for now.

For condi rev (would help a little, defense and more condi cover) ==> 

Shortbow skill 4, Spirit Crush: Make the aoe field also pulse blind conditions.

It would give the weapon some more defense without the need of block or evade AND same time more condi cover.

 

[Yasai.3549]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

but Solar Storm, Guardian's spear 4, does just as much damage pre-nerf, cleanses, gives them their special weapon mechanic, has a larger radius, and no cost to it like energy, despite having the same CD?

Because it's insanely slow xD

I was doing duel sessions with a Willbender of all things trying to use it on me and I just waited for any Spear animations to start playing and check him with a Phase Traversal. He was out of dodges before he knew it and the next time he tried he was dead. 

In this regard, I can appreciate that Citadel Bombardment was sped up and tightened so that if you cast it on an Area, anyone in the inner center of the area is gonna get a face full of actual hurt, something the old spread essentially sabotaged itself on. However it must be said: If the damage has been nerfed, it needs more Energy cost reduction. 20 Energy, please Anet. 

[Shagie.7612]

hello hello
overall much happier with Vindication, patch was good, hard to be super unhappy

i would like to suggest a change that i think would help condi Renegade, now that power has a good choice in All for One
it would also make Renegade the "best" shortbow user again, sorta like how Harb has an improved pistol even if condi Reaper is better

basically, hammer is now a quick powerful and premier strike damage choice, while shortbow has been replaced for power, which is good imo, and i think there's pretty good reason to believe spear's gonna be changed and powercrept to be a better condi weapon considering it's the selling point of the expansion
additionally, Heartpiercer's been really underwhelming since the pierce was removed on it, there's like, two other traits in the game that are just a straight bleed buff like that. most have some other kind of effect, and i'm pretty sure there's ZERO elite traits that are that way.
Bold Reversal on the other hand was previously only picked because there was nothing else to take on that line

i propose changing either Heartpiercer or Bold Reversal to be something along the lines of druid's Eclipse trait, something that augments shortbow skills to cover it and condi Rev's weaknesses, like condition spread, lack of a defensive skill, and absence of evades/blocks/blinds.
i don't think Renegade needs to make more damage trade offs to gain the situational utility everyone else gets for "free" as part of their builds though, so i would like to suggest augmenting them in such a way that heartpiercer would give roughly the same dps boost via additional condi stacks, while also covering the above areas as well

overall Renegade Adept and Master traits are kinda poop and i would like to see them get a pass over, even if that's power creep

On 6/28/2024 at 5:17 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

Because it's insanely slow xD

i roughly timed it during the beta by counting frames and the total time difference wasn't that large for how much extra you get
citadel bombardment's just over 2s to cast and all 5 hits to land, guard spear 4 is 1.5ish for three hits, 2.15ish for five, the difference between start up and first hit is about the same too
anyways that was mostly just complaining for the sake of whining and because i wanna drop fifteen 3ks on someone who doesn't avoid it because it's reparations for how long the spec was bad :^)

Edited 14 hours ago by Shagie.7612

[Yasai.3549]

38 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

i roughly timed it during the beta by counting frames and the total time difference wasn't that large for how much extra you get
citadel bombardment's just over 2s to cast and all 5 hits to land, guard spear 4 is 1.5ish for three hits, 2.15ish for five, the difference between start up and first hit is about the same too
anyways that was mostly just complaining for the sake of whining and because i wanna drop fifteen 3ks on someone who doesn't avoid it because it's reparations for how long the spec was bad :^)

If it were up to me this is what I'll do with Renegade, not that it'll change much:

Orders removed entirely, replaced with Ambush.

Ambush (20s cooldown): 

Command a Charr Operative to attack your target ferociously. Ambush gains different properties based on the GM you trait. 

Vindication: When you are at 5 stacks of Fervor, your attacks launch a follow-up missile at your target, inflicting Burning. Ambush becomes ground targeted and commands a squad of Charr Operatives to attack repeatedly, inflicting Cripple and Bleed.

Lasting Legacy: When you gain Fervor, you gain Might. Ambush instead summons a Charr Operative to guard you, negating attacks for you and countering with dazing strikes. 

Righteous Rebel: When you are at 5 stacks of Fervor, you pulse Alacrity around you. Ambush grants the Charr Operative ability to Steal Boons from your target.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Yasai.3549

[arazoth.7290]

I think renegade will never be really good and meta either unless it gets the dumbest buffs making it faceroll.

For example, I don't like at all that the Vindication traitline + zakiros trait gives it that passive sustain with devastation lifesteal traits... . It's a bandaid on the real problem renegade has and I am pretty sure it will never be solved.

It should need a really big overhaul, also not a fan of extra weapon traits, weapon specific traits shouldn't exist...