What's Renegade's intended purpose in PvP now?

[arazoth.7290]

23 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

That's tended to be its history, yes. Or as a really memey spec abusing inexperienced/unaware people with the old Rune of the Mad King.
I will say they were very, very quick to nerf it back in PoF (because it "made people mad") even though they left Scourge and Firebrand vomiting out aoe all over for a very, very long time, and that was a pretty lame double standard.

But anyways, I agree that Vindication+Zakiros is a bit of a silly combo. You can even drop Devastation and play like Invo/Salv and it's still quite a bit of lifesteal.

I've gone back and forth on it in this thread, at some points just kinda giving up and asking for a bunch of free sustain and at others really not wanting to be some dumb facetanking beast, but I don't think there's any chance of it actually getting a large overhaul at this point, so realistically it's the only way it'll ever actually have survivability. Maybe making it barrier like Scrapper's trait is a smarter move, so it's something that wears off when not actively swinging.

I do think Renegade needed some more sustain though, particularly for getting through small attacks, stray condi hits, and the like. You could dodge as many important skills as possible and still lose sometimes just because of the sustain difference.
It's been pretty bad at surviving ever since they nerfed it in 2020, and then they reworked the damage reduction formula later down the line which hit it just as hard.

I don't mind it not being truly meta, I just want it to hit a point where it's good enough and feels like making good plays actually matters.
It's much closer to that level now than it was when I started this thread.

Yea, I found out in fights that combo I said, can be pretty strong.

The only thing that really works against it is when enemies are tankier, you have weakness condi on you. Less outgoing damage is less incoming passive self sustain.

The feeling I have when in kalla stance compared to every other core/espec stance, I don't feel safe enough. Kalla stance abilties don't have enough impact ln self sustain directly and the F skills either. On these things they should be working and energy overall lower f skills/kalla skills, because if in theory all would be useable they should be able to get pressed more...

Many things we can all say on it, but I have that they rather focus on ma spear/scepter as weapons and updating some other weapons first. If these are stronger by nature, everything gets overall little stronger in their roles.

 

 

 

[Buran.3796]

On 7/6/2024 at 1:36 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

Many things we can all say on it, but I have that they rather focus on ma spear/scepter as weapons and updating some other weapons first. If these are stronger by nature, everything gets overall little stronger in their roles.

   Renegade is quite strong/meta...  Just in WvW zergs while NOT running  Kalla. Ren gt buffs in PvE, specially in solo builds. Yes, is crap at PvP, but core Guard is also way better than Firebrand or WB at PvP, and being realistic the meta at MATs can only fill 5 slots x team in each match, so the competition for the 36 specs is hard.

[arazoth.7290]

43 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Renegade is quite strong/meta...  Just in WvW zergs while NOT running  Kalla. Ren gt buffs in PvE, specially in solo builds. Yes, is crap at PvP, but core Guard is also way better than Firebrand or WB at PvP, and being realistic the meta at MATs can only fill 5 slots x team in each match, so the competition for the 36 specs is hard.

From what it looks, in zergs just used bc giving alac.

Still sad kalla stance isn't used. Some may disagree but imo if an elite spec isn't used, it's just really badly made if you have to choose 2 core stances on an elite spec.

I mean you have core if you want 2 core stances to be used. But like I said that is my point of view, how I look at elite spec for revs 🤷

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

From what it looks, in zergs just used bc giving alac.

   Nah, check the video from Perish VS from May about the WvW zerg meta:.

   Renegade is used due the versatility:

* Effortlessly provides alacrity.

* Second best source of AoE stability on demand.

* Access to boon removal, strong sources of damage mitigation for the squad, decent AoE crowd control, ability to fight both at range and mele.

* Quite easy to play.

   While is not outstanding at any role and the damage is mediocre, do provides good support tools and dps to the zerg:

   I saw a bit of his streams lately (as late as this night) and the zerg in which was playing had no less than 9 Renegades, more of the same spec than any other profession (closest was 7 Firebrands), so in the 2 months since the video his points only became truer. Renegade is REALLY good at WvW zerging at the moment. Most stackable WvW zerg spec in the game right now.

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

Until they get around to changing the alacrity on renegade to might/vigor/fury or whatever useless boon they deem. Then It'll still be dwarf... maybe mallyx, but be a completely different espec. Honestly I wish they'd just stop deciding what classes get quickness and alacrity and which don't because it leads to unnecessary nerfs. Back with that patch that changed a few of the providers should have been a blanket removal of ALL AOE QUICKNESS AND ALACRITY traits. You can still keep personal ones, but those two boons have proven time and time again to be too difficult for the current balance team to balance around. Those two boons completely removed from the boonball boon table would be a good first step in getting a clearer view of what needs to be balanced.... I mean their whole point for removing those 20% cooldown weapon traits was because they said they had to balance it as if you always had that trait, but if you didnt take it, it felt useless. I don't know how that's any different to alacrity, and to a lesser extend, quickness.

 

[Shagie.7612]

This really wasn't and has never been about WvW, but I am kinda surprised Renegade still has it in WvW when they've stripped it from almost everyone else.

Wouldn't be surprised to see it as the next elite on the chopping block for losing it.

[mirage.8046]

We could get to the point where any skills won't apply alacrity due to traits, but such a boon isn't the only problem.

The more effective nerf would be to limit its duration rather than outright remove the boon. Removing group alacrity in WvW and PvP was a harsh nerf, but this hasn't stopped boonballs whatsoever. Nerfing concentration as a stat would better nerf the constant boon uptime rather than outright remove group alacrity and group quickness. However, balance patches have gone in the opposite direction. I also don't see how being able to spam a different boon (like might/protection/vigor or whatever boon) over alacrity or quickness is helpful or sensible.

[arazoth.7290]

6 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Nah, check the video from Perish VS from May about the WvW zerg meta:.

   Renegade is used due the versatility:

* Effortlessly provides alacrity.

* Second best source of AoE stability on demand.

* Access to boon removal, strong sources of damage mitigation for the squad, decent AoE crowd control, ability to fight both at range and mele

 

2nd point number aoe stability, revenant can do that on any spec/core.

The 3 rd point you listed is noting renegade exlucsive only either.

So the only point that carries this build is Alacrity, like I said, so how is this a "nah"?

If now in theory they would make renegade a pure damage spec and move alac to vindicator, what would this build have over core rev unique?

[Buran.3796]

13 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

So the only point that carries this build is Alacrity, like I said, so how is this a "nah"?

  Alacrity access is the main difference between Renegade and core Rev, Herald or Vindicator at WvW. All of those have access to the same core legends and traits, and all the weapons. So you have a point.

   But cele alacrity Renegade is chosen in WvW instead of other alac builds because the whole package. Vindi is played as support because shines at that. Hearld is barely used because doesn't have quickness access at WvW and doesn't do anything special which other builds/classes can. Power Vindi also doesn't shine in zergs. But the Alliance is strong as support and that's the role which fulfills.

   I understand that you would like Kalla to be competitive in WvW and PvP. But the problem is that neither Renegade in general nor Kalla in particular was designed to be good at those game modes. Kalla arrived as a pet (worse than pets) build, and pet builds usually suck vs competent humans, unless they are broken (and then end nerfed and useless again). Renegade was released with a breakstun in the health skill, proving the designer had 0 clue about competitive game modes. Changes made short bow viable, but the core design of the Renegade as PvE build is still there. Trying to play Kalla at PvP is like trying to run full spiritual weapons as Guardian, makes little sense due there's  better choices. But with Revenant we can't pick lone skills, only legends, so Kalla is poised to remain subpar forever.

   The same happens with the scepter and the spear: they were designed with 0 care about what could be usable in WvW/PvP. So while I undestand people asking for improvements, I just prefer to play the cards available the best I can, and just ignore the crapy ones.

   I think that people not using new weapons that are bad are excellent news; not because could force developers to care about those (which are unsalvageable), but because maybe the next time they will spent some time trying to figuring something usefull instead of a filler or placeholder. So instead of 3-4 usable weapons x expansion maybe the next one has 5 and then 6 or 7 after that...

[ArthurDent.9538]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:37 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

From what it looks, in zergs just used bc giving alac.

Still sad kalla stance isn't used. Some may disagree but imo if an elite spec isn't used, it's just really badly made if you have to choose 2 core stances on an elite spec.

I mean you have core if you want 2 core stances to be used. But like I said that is my point of view, how I look at elite spec for revs 🤷

Builds not using the respective e-spec legend wouldn't matter as much if ren and herald elite spec mechanics weren't so boring. Compared to stuff like photon forge, full-counter, mirage cloak, celestial avatar, etc. citadel orders and facet of nature just don't provide much in terms of gameplay and since you lose ancient echo for them they're debatably downgrades. Heroic command and orders from above are litterally just press button to get a boon for a bit, citadel bombardment is now a pretty ok dps skill but there's not really much of a theme to any of it. Facet of nature upkeeps are all overpriced with barely noticeable effects and the consumes are mostly very minor effects. Energy meld is the worst of them all by far but vindicator does have the sky dodges which do add actual flavor to the e-spec even without aliance stance. Renegade used to have the identity of its exclusive access to short bow, then exclusive access to piercing short bow, but now it's just Kalla that really defines it now unless you want an alac bot. Herald is totally defined by its access to glint in competitive, if you don't want glint then just about every trait line is a better option than herald.

[arazoth.7290]

24 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

 Facet of nature upkeeps are all overpriced with barely noticeable effects and the consumes are mostly very minor effects. 

juppp and I find sad 😮‍💨

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Alacrity access is the main difference between Renegade and core Rev, Herald or Vindicator at WvW. All of those have access to the same core legends and traits, and all the weapons. So you have a point.

   But cele alacrity Renegade is chosen in WvW instead of other alac builds because the whole package. Vindi is played as support because shines at that. Hearld is barely used because doesn't have quickness access at WvW and doesn't do anything special which other builds/classes can. Power Vindi also doesn't shine in zergs. But the Alliance is strong as support and that's the role which fulfills.

   I understand that you would like Kalla to be competitive in WvW and PvP. But the problem is that neither Renegade in general nor Kalla in particular was designed to be good at those game modes. Kalla arrived as a pet (worse than pets) build, and pet builds usually suck vs competent humans, unless they are broken (and then end nerfed and useless again). Renegade was released with a breakstun in the health skill, proving the designer had 0 clue about competitive game modes. Changes made short bow viable, but the core design of the Renegade as PvE build is still there. Trying to play Kalla at PvP is like trying to run full spiritual weapons as Guardian, makes little sense due there's  better choices. But with Revenant we can't pick lone skills, only legends, so Kalla is poised to remain subpar forever.

   The same happens with the scepter and the spear: they were designed with 0 care about what could be usable in WvW/PvP. So while I undestand people asking for improvements, I just prefer to play the cards available the best I can, and just ignore the crapy ones.

   I think that people not using new weapons that are bad are excellent news; not because could force developers to care about those (which are unsalvageable), but because maybe the next time they will spent some time trying to figuring something usefull instead of a filler or placeholder. So instead of 3-4 usable weapons x expansion maybe the next one has 5 and then 6 or 7 after that...

Yeaa too bad they can't figure it out......

I don't have hope for rene but the weapons fixing they might, only is how long till it happens

[Shagie.7612]

4 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

Renegade was released with a breakstun in the health skill, proving the designer had 0 clue about competitive game modes.

Breakrazor was only a stun for the beta test weekend, this never actually made it to the PoF release.

Anyways WvW is not and has never been PvP (what this thread is explicitly about lol) but whatever

Kalla as a legend doesn't work well in PvP because you have two damage skills and a really crappy stunbreak, and an upkeep elite that's stationary and a huge time consumer if you want to use it often. It's also mostly another damage skill, the healing is only significant, relative to how much extra you'll take trying to stay in it, when you can wear a set like Cele.

The way to fix that would have been making Citadel Orders the utility, ala Guardian virtues, but that was probably never considered. It would also have just been straight power creep at a time when they at least pretended to care about avoiding it.

As it stands currently Vindication+Zakiros is pretty silly, Renegade is an okay spec 1v1 or when it's not focused but folds very quickly when it is because of that lack of situational responses, or ability to escape or anything.
I don't think it was a great way to try and buff it to competitive viability because the more you buff lifesteal like that, the more you move towards specs that don't care about what their opponent presses because trades are always in their favor, but it's much better now than it was, and Ren DID need some better survivability.

Lastly this is my personal bias but I think it's kinda lame that all decent Rev builds are power and have always been power. The only time it's not is when cHerald has a gajillionty sustain. This would have been the time to create a decent condi build that isn't that, especially since Ren was originally created to fill the missing half of its condition builds. They coulda let me be the next condi Reaper maaaaaan~

Edited July 12 by Shagie.7612

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Lastly this is my personal bias but I think it's kinda lame that all decent Rev builds are power and have always been power. 

   The main problem with conditions in Revenat is that outside Renegade at PvE, your conditions barely do damage at all..

   Just starting: torment is maongst the worst condition for PvP since the base damage is low and the premise is that no one will stand still at competitive game modes, so the damage will be even lower. Torment, which was born to punish foes which flee from you and then was entirely reverted, is weaker (in order) than bleed, poison, confusion and burns, and is the main condition from Revenants.

   The second problem is that Rev in general has low amounts oif cover conditions, and over time ANet  did reduce those even more: Rev used to have a decent amount of sources of chill, which could be traited to proc more torment, but in the latest patches ANet has been busy removing most of those sources of chill. We have some sources of burns, but most of them are exceptional and can't be easily stacked as Guardians, Elementalist or Warriors can.

   The obvious solution would have buff Renegade's bleeds, which originally expanded the condi options of Revenants and used to have decent condi traits, but guess what? The damage from those trais were overnerfed and now power Renegade is better at dealing damage than condi Renegade, and both are BAD in PvP.

   So yes, I agree that condi Rev didn't last long (except release Herals and a short period in the Renebunker meta) and that Renegade would have been the perfect place to make it a thing (as is happening in WvW albeit not for the pity damage itself). But instead the condi damage is trash (and even trashier in the new weapons).

   The solution? Hire a different guy to design next Rev skills. Because the current ones just doesn't care...

[Jobber.6348]

8 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

The solution? Hire a different guy to design next Rev skills. Because the current ones just doesn't care...

Especially after seeing land Spear, yea this has to be done. 

They know NOTHING about what makes a weapon work. All I see is a whole ton of flair and 0 logical application of game mechanics. And for the love of god, another weapon with little to no Combo-ing potential on a 2 handed set which leave us back again with Shortbow being the only good Condi/Hybrid set.