mandala.8507 Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 4 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said: Anet systematically dismantling GW1 lore over the last decade is an objective fact. Receipts? You still have not backed this up in any way on this forum, despite repeatedly making this claim across multiple threads. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) On 9/6/2023 at 9:22 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said: As yes, show the people how dangerous the dragons are... by mass murdering the people yourself. The theory I am familiar with is the same one that Mai Trin and the recordings in LWS1R promote: Scarlet created the alliance with the intent of forcing Mordremoth to wake up (thus become vulnerable) and then attack Mordremoth directly. All originating from Scarlet's journal: It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet_Briar's_Journal But LWS1R expanded on it: Scarlet...?: If... WHEN the time comes, everything I know will be devoured. It is going to happen, and I am not prepared. Mai Trin...?: If you're talking about the attack, preparations are— Scarlet...?: I am talking about the result. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Recording_1_(The_Evacuation_of_Lion's_Arch) Scarlet...?: There's nothing else I can do. Scarlet...?: Jennah didn't listen. Trin... A disappointment. Scarlet...?: We were born to call you "mother". The others look to you for protection. Guidance. They follow like livestock. Scarlet...?: Where is my guidance? Where is my neatly paved path to "enlightenment"? Scarlet...?: Argh! (pounds table) Scarlet...?: There is no path. My cards were dealt in blood. My mind, torn open. Scarlet...?: (heavy breathing) Scarlet...?: I only have one option. And the earth will crumble and crack beneath it. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Recording_2_(Scarlet's_End) But if her goal was to confront the Elder Dragon, to prepare for its awakening after forcing it awake... why not tell the Commander when they first met. This... mind boggling direction... made more sense back in the original LWS1, when it was written to take place concurrently to the personal story - before the Pact was founded. But with LWS2 it became "after the PS", after the Pact, after felling Zhaitan. So all the comments of "you don't know what you face" by Scarlet to the Commander... Scarlet Briar: Well, well... The rats scurried out of the sewer. Nice to finally put a face to the tail. Scarlet Briar: It's a shame the queen forced my hand, but I must say: you're quite the dance partner, "Commander." Scarlet Briar: This is something I didn't anticipate, and while I love a bit of excitement... Scarlet Briar: I urge you to desist. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet's_Playhouse Scarlet Briar: My little friend from the Pact. Just couldn't stay away, could you? Scarlet Briar: You're curious. I can smell it. Scarlet Briar: I was curious, too... Scarlet Briar: You don't know who you face... Scarlet Briar: What you face. Scarlet Briar: I see it for a fleeting moment. Every time I close my eyes. Scarlet Briar: (pained grunt) Get...out! Scarlet Briar: (heavy breathing) Scarlet Briar: (laughing) Scarlet Briar: The ground is writhing beneath us. Scarlet Briar: Oblivion. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Tower_of_Nightmares#Dialogue Well, they make no sense. Why wouldn't the Commander know what they face, they've killed its sibling already. Her log entires document her decent into madness and her loss of control to Mordremoth… the last one is one of her final moments of lucidity still able to recognize that her thoughts are nolonger her own, and stating that Mordremoth is more of a danger than we believe them to be. We may have killed Zaitan, but Mordremoth is worse… stronger… and to her (a sylvari) unstoppable because he’s literally taking over her mind… it’s reasonable even to assume that she was instrumental in him being able to infiltrate the minds of other sylvari… remember, the Sylvari didn’t start hearing his voice the moment he awoke, it was after Scarlet fully lost her mind to him that others started to hear him too. The Sylvari are known to have a connection of sorts between them all… the Pale Tree having the greatest connection able to feel the hearts and minds of all her children… so when Mordremoth tookover Scarlets mind, he had a direct connection to the Pale Tree and through her a connection to all Sylvari. Even after the death of Scarlet his connection was already established. His connection to Scarlet happened when she tapped into the Eternal Alchemy and directly linked to Mordremoth’s sleeping mind… also… EoD opened up a huge opportunity to learn more about Scarlet’s past and her true intentions… but sadly we won’t ever get those answers with Mai Trin’s death… Edited October 3, 2023 by Panda.1967 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 5 hours ago, Panda.1967 said: it’s reasonable even to assume that she was instrumental in him being able to infiltrate the minds of other sylvari… remember, the Sylvari didn’t start hearing his voice the moment he awoke, it was after Scarlet fully lost her mind to him that others started to hear him too. The Sylvari are known to have a connection of sorts between them all… the Pale Tree having the greatest connection able to feel the hearts and minds of all her children… so when Mordremoth tookover Scarlets mind, he had a direct connection to the Pale Tree and through her a connection to all Sylvari. Even after the death of Scarlet his connection was already established. His connection to Scarlet happened when she tapped into the Eternal Alchemy and directly linked to Mordremoth’s sleeping mind… While we can't be certain Scarlet was the true first Sylvari with a strong connection to Mordremoth, the plot of seasons 1 and 2 suggests that other Sylvari only started hearing his call after Scarlet succeeded in sending a huge surge of leyline magic to wake him up. That's why we start season 2 off with the Aerin's betrayal of the Zephyrites, where we learn that his rejection of the connection with other Sylvari and the Pale Tree to become Soundless made him more susceptible to Mordremoth's call. I'm not sure we could say that Scarlet was the inroad into the minds of the Sylvari; only that she was the spark that prematurely ignited Mordremoth's flame and set her people up to be subjugated by the elder dragon sooner than expected. This line from Vorpp in season 1 asks the leading question that lets us know the Sylvari always had a connection to the dragon: Quote Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought. I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 8 hours ago, Panda.1967 said: Her log entires document her decent into madness and her loss of control to Mordremoth… the last one is one of her final moments of lucidity still able to recognize that her thoughts are nolonger her own, and stating that Mordremoth is more of a danger than we believe them to be. We may have killed Zaitan, but Mordremoth is worse… stronger… and to her (a sylvari) unstoppable because he’s literally taking over her mind… This is definitely false. That last entry I mentioned takes place in 1323 AE, and it's canon that her "final moments of lucidity still able to recognize that her thoughts are no longer her own" happens with The Origins of Madness - she's still struggling to keep her sanity quite visibly in LWS1R's Tower of Nightmares, such dialogue such as this: Scarlet Briar: (pained grunt) Get...out! Scarlet Briar: (heavy breathing) Scarlet Briar: (laughing) Scarlet Briar: The ground is writhing beneath us. Scarlet Briar: Oblivion. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Tower_of_Nightmares#Dialogue Hell even in Battle for Lion's Arch we have this: Scarlet Briar: Molten troops, hear me. The southern sector is faltering. Don't let me down. Scarlet Briar: Shut up! I can't hear myself think! 3.14159. Yes, lovely. Scarlet Briar: I must stay focused. Prime gate breached! Now, I'm mad https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Battle_on_the_Breachmaker Showing that she still has moments of lucidity even in the end. Years after the journal. That journal doesn't show her final moments of lucidity - it shows her first moments of losing control. 8 hours ago, Panda.1967 said: it’s reasonable even to assume that she was instrumental in him being able to infiltrate the minds of other sylvari… remember, the Sylvari didn’t start hearing his voice the moment he awoke, it was after Scarlet fully lost her mind to him that others started to hear him too. The Sylvari are known to have a connection of sorts between them all… the Pale Tree having the greatest connection able to feel the hearts and minds of all her children… so when Mordremoth tookover Scarlets mind, he had a direct connection to the Pale Tree and through her a connection to all Sylvari. Even after the death of Scarlet his connection was already established. His connection to Scarlet happened when she tapped into the Eternal Alchemy and directly linked to Mordremoth’s sleeping mind… This is... again false. And actually contradictory - you say sylvar didn't hear his voice when he woke, but only after Scarlet lost her mind fully, but Mordremoth woke up at the end of LWS1 (1327 AE) and Scarlet lost her mind "fully" only months prior... But anyways, by all lore and indications, nobody (Scarlet aside) heard Mordremoth's voice until after LWS1. Scarlet Briar got exposed to Mordremoth in 1320 or 1321, and only began to truly suffer from Mordremoth's influence in 1323. The first non-Scarlet sylvari known to have heard Mordremoth's voice was Aerin, who as far as we know didn't hear his voice until after embarking on the Zephyr Sanctum (his attitude during Festival of the Four Winds, seen here, is vastly different from what we see or hear about in LWS2). This being after Scarlet died and Mordremoth fully woke up. And by all indication, Mordremoth always had access to the Dream. In fact, one can interpret the depiction in What Scarlet Saw to be that Omadd's Machine used Scarlet's connection to the Dream to access The All and, by extension, touching Mordremoth's mind. She soon saw a vague, glowing shape ahead. A tree, she thought...the Pale Tree. Its great off-white trunk connected a broad network of branches and leaves to a root system below. Instead of nuts or berries beneath its leaves, there were sylvari. Thousands of her people hung from the tree's boughs like ripe fruit ready to fall. Their bodies did not move, but their eyes shifted and rolled, eagerly taking in their surroundings. [...] With the Pale Tree's desperate words and her own raucous laughter growing echoing across the void, Ceara plunged through the vision of the great tree and beyond. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_What_Scarlet_Saw This is reflected in The Machine's cinematic by having the PC witness an icon depicting the Pale Tree, then us moving past it. During Rallying Call, the Pale Tree says that we likely just saw Scarlet's own vision - which is likely true as the cinematic has Scarlet's and Pale Tree's dialogue from the short story echoing very quietly in the background. Player character: Two things. First, I had a vision. You figured prominently in it. Pale Tree: I'm intrigued. Tell me more. What was it about? Where did you have this vision? PC: In an asuran device Scarlet used to see the Eternal Alchemy. I saw it too. PT: What dangers have you been toying with? Such things were not meant to be seen. They will crack your mind. PC: I didn't understand much of the vision, but you were at the center. PT: If this was the device that Ceara used, then it must have maintained some of her touch upon it. But, I do not know what it could mean. Only you can know that. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call Interestingly, she doesn't say this to sylvari PCs, only non-sylvari. 8 hours ago, Panda.1967 said: also… EoD opened up a huge opportunity to learn more about Scarlet’s past and her true intentions… but sadly we won’t ever get those answers with Mai Trin’s death… Anything Mai Trin told us would be a massively biased opinion anyways, and we did get quite a bit of that from all the optional dialogue; LWS1R also provided such with the newly added letters and holo recordings. But again, the idea of Scarlet being a "misunderstood hero" is directly contradicted by her actions, behavior, earlier lore, and made even more confusing with LWS1R dialogue rewrites. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said: This is definitely false. That last entry I mentioned takes place in 1323 AE, and it's canon that her "final moments of lucidity still able to recognize that her thoughts are no longer her own" happens with The Origins of Madness - ONE OF … do not misquote me. One of… not the last… it shows a point where her struggle to retain her mind began to turn in Mordremoth’s favor… the moments where she was truly starting to lose herself to him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Panda.1967 said: ONE OF … do not misquote me. One of… not the last… it shows a point where her struggle to retain her mind began to turn in Mordremoth’s favor… the moments where she was truly starting to lose herself to him. So "one of her final moments" happened four years before her death, when she still had some lucidity in her dying moments. So she had four perpetual years of final moments is what you're saying. I don't think that's how final moments work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said: So "one of her final moments" happened four years before her death, when she still had some lucidity in her dying moments. So she had four perpetual years of final moments is what you're saying. I don't think that's how final moments work. Given the fact that she WAS constantly in and out of lucidity and control over those 4 years… actually yes. There were also numerous times in LWS1 where she was clearly not in control anymore… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Panda.1967 said: Given the fact that she WAS constantly in and out of lucidity and control over those 4 years… actually yes. There were also numerous times in LWS1 where she was clearly not in control anymore… We have no evidence of that happening constantly over those four years though, as we only see her actions in 1326 and 1327. And in 1326, the first time she "was clearly not in control anymore" is arguably Tower of Nightmares. 3 years after the "communicated through visions of death and destruction" happening. There wasn't a single moment in the whole Clockwork Chaos storyline where she lost control - and even in Tower of Nightmares, Origins of madness, and Battle for Lion's Arch release arcs, the amount of times she was "clearly not in control" can be counted pretty much 1 for 1 of release. Outside those three instances, there's only one other instance of Scarlet arguably "losing control" - which was the journal we're talking about. Of the three others, one is at an undefined time period, but given the other dialogue it happened post-Clockwork Chaos. It was even established by devs back in 2014 that Scarlet's change in tone and the music shift for her theme from playful to ominous was to show that she was finally losing control. Meaning that her "final moments" only began in Tower of Nightmares. All this meaning that from the four times we see Scarlet "in and out of lucidity" - the four "constantly" times - three of them happened in the latter half of 1326 or beginning half of 1327 AE - all within 12 months prior to her death. Only once did it happen before, in 1323 AE. And in all honesty, I'm being very generous by calling these moments "in and out of lucidity" or "final moments of lucidity" because the moments are, in apparent chronological order: It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness. Dated Season of the Scion, 1323. Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd's machine, you've been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours. Scarlet Briar: Let me be clear. I'm not doing this for you; I'm doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever. Scarlet Briar: It's not true. None of it. I don't have to listen to you. Get out of my head! (Note: exact time on this is unclear, but as mentioned, based on other dialogue, it happened post-Clockwork Chaos) (Note: this one was added with LWS1R, not part of 2013 releases) Scarlet Briar: (pained grunt) Get...out! Scarlet Briar: (heavy breathing) Scarlet Briar: (laughing) Scarlet Briar: The ground is writhing beneath us. Scarlet Briar: Oblivion. Scarlet Briar: Moving into position. Turbo-sparks within expected range. Increasing sonic resonance. Scarlet Briar: Molten troops, hear me. The southern sector is faltering. Don't let me down. Scarlet Briar: Shut up! I can't hear myself think! 3.14159. Yes, lovely. Scarlet Briar: I must stay focused. Prime gate breached! Now, I'm mad. And in all honesty, this isn't really showing lack of lucidity. This is only really showing that she's being annoyed by a telepath. Edited October 5, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morvran.8265 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 On 10/3/2023 at 3:16 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said: (either logical for the change of writing culture We're almost on the same page now, you're still trying to sugarcoat things a little but you've grasped the root cause of the problem. Anet's company culture changed and they felt the need to nuke GW1 because it was the product of the old culture. You call that "logical", I call that something.. less flattering, because it shows that they only care about themselves and felt no sense of duty towards the playerbase that came to love the original at the very least, if not outright trying to alienate them. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 22 minutes ago, Morvran.8265 said: We're almost on the same page now, you're still trying to sugarcoat things a little but you've grasped the root cause of the problem. Anet's company culture changed and they felt the need to nuke GW1 because it was the product of the old culture. You call that "logical", I call that something.. less flattering, because it shows that they only care about themselves and felt no sense of duty towards the playerbase that came to love the original at the very least, if not outright trying to alienate them. So what it sounds like you're saying is that you're a conservative right wing who hates progressiveness in culture and equally hates media that keeps with the times. But quite frankly, that is neither "ArenaNet systematically dismantling GW1 lore" nor is it an objective fact that such a thing is bad. It's a subjective opinion of yours that you're trying to justify by vilifying the opposing opinion by attributing it to buzzwords/phrases like retcon or "ruining the game". An attitude that is little different from the Republican party throwing around buzzwords like "woke agenda". And you're trying to toss your subjective opinion as an objective fact. But wanna know something? ArenaNet has always been progressive. Both the employees and the story. And to try to convince people otherwise is simple delusion. And the playerbase of the time would have included people who like or even were active parts of the cultural movements that you seem to dislike. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said: There wasn't a single moment in the whole Clockwork Chaos storyline where she lost control This isn't true post-revamp of season 1. During her raid on the jubilee at the Queen's closing address, we hear her deliver a curiously regretful line after blowing up the civilian staging area. She seems to be struggling with her mental schism even then, only 2 weeks following our first interaction with her in person, and it would certainly be believable that this has been how she has existed since exiting Omadd's Machine (perhaps with the frequency and severity of these personality shifts getting worse over time). This is the line, and it's super important to take the marked tone shift into account to really get how it shows this dichotomy in her character: Quote Scarlet Briar: Pity, but don't waste your time mourning. This is bigger than them. Than any of you. And here's the delivery of the line, which I've timestamped at 7:30 in the video: She is Machiavellian by necessity to cope with the consequences of her increasingly malevolent madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said: We're almost on the same page now, you're still trying to sugarcoat things a little but you've grasped the root cause of the problem. Anet's company culture changed and they felt the need to nuke GW1 because it was the product of the old culture. You call that "logical", I call that something.. less flattering, because it shows that they only care about themselves and felt no sense of duty towards the playerbase that came to love the original at the very least, if not outright trying to alienate them. Were you the one who tried to say that everything after Prophecies doesn't count at all? Even then, you have yet to actually provide proof of them purposefully nuking GW1 or wanting to destroy it all. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morvran.8265 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said: But wanna know something? ArenaNet has always been progressive. Both the employees and the story. And to try to convince people otherwise is simple delusion. And the playerbase of the time would have included people who like or even were active parts of the cultural movements that you seem to dislike. Nice bit of historical revisionism. Riddle me this, if Anet's always been like this then why didn't we have these types of complaints back then and why are so many people disillusioned with this direction? I mean it's literally the same tone for the same audience, according to you. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said: Riddle me this, if Anet's always been like this then why didn't we have these types of complaints back then and why are so many people disillusioned with this direction? I mean it's literally the same tone for the same audience, according to you. Because its only been somewhat recently that certain groups have pushed to make these ideas, and choices, out to be some sort of "attack" that needs to be fought against. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said: Riddle me this, if Anet's always been like this then why didn't we have these types of complaints back then and why are so many people disillusioned with this direction? I mean it's literally the same tone for the same audience, according to you. Because it wasn't until annoyance over the "Social Justice Warrior" movements that people retaliated to these movements online (we've had many moments, especially historically, off the internet), and ArenaNet were a lot more subvert about it compared to EoD. The growing rhetoric online, instigated by right wingers in America especially in 2016, caused a growing pushback from the progressive side (both left-wing and more moderate groups). But if you don't think that the old white male leader of a nation being so caught up in literal racism that it leads him to drive his own son away and dooming the nation is not in the same mental space as the "changed culture" of ANet... you've got one hell of a weird bias then. Edited October 5, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086 2 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 8 hours ago, mandala.8507 said: This isn't true post-revamp of season 1. During her raid on the jubilee at the Queen's closing address, we hear her deliver a curiously regretful line after blowing up the civilian staging area. She seems to be struggling with her mental schism even then, only 2 weeks following our first interaction with her in person, and it would certainly be believable that this has been how she has existed since exiting Omadd's Machine (perhaps with the frequency and severity of these personality shifts getting worse over time). This is the line, and it's super important to take the marked tone shift into account to really get how it shows this dichotomy in her character: And here's the delivery of the line, which I've timestamped at 7:30 in the video: -snip video- She is Machiavellian by necessity to cope with the consequences of her increasingly malevolent madness. I would not say that her acting a bit Machiavellian (which I would disagree that "There is a bigger picture than you or any of them" counts as Machiavellian) is a moment of her losing mental control to Mordremoth. To me, it sounds more like Scarlet just dropping a facade of not caring (one of the biggest complaints about Scarlet in 2013 was how she is always this joker / harley quinn persona while being a "genius with a plan"), as opposed to the moments where she literally shouts at the voice in her head or repeats catch phrases attributed to Mordremoth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 6 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said: Nice bit of historical revisionism. Riddle me this, if Anet's always been like this then why didn't we have these types of complaints back then and why are so many people disillusioned with this direction? I mean it's literally the same tone for the same audience, according to you. Almost like there has been changes in real life culture in the same period. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greyhawk.9107 Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 Good God people, are we really going "eVeRThInGs pOLiTiCaL" like its still mother kittening 2016? I play games to get away from that sort of crap. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeegee.4320 Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 She literally gassed 3/4 of Lion's Arch to death. It was dumb in EoD when they "redeemed" Mai Trin, and it's foolish to call Scarlet anything but evil now. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 5 hours ago, squeegee.4320 said: She literally gassed 3/4 of Lion's Arch to death. It was dumb in EoD when they "redeemed" Mai Trin, and it's foolish to call Scarlet anything but evil now. They didn't redeem Mai Trin though, and made it very clear LA does not consider the blood on her record cleaned. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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