It's time to admit the Scrapper Quickness changes were a mistake. Here are some solutions for how to fix it.

[doc.9162]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:07 AM, Okhu.7948 said:

I don't care that 75% of Scrappers can't adapt to changes.

lol funny as hell!.. umm yeah i raged and ranted about the scrapper changes when they came out, created a couple of threads and was very cheesed off. rage quit scrapper, systematically went through each class, then came back to engineer (didn't like any of them that much). and kinda love the new scrapper now.. believe me when i say.. i understand how you feel, but the new scrapper makes you plan and think about how and when to do your combos, its far more interesting to play now... and oh boy! here we go.... i don't use grenades! i use blast gyro, mine and shredder gyro (plus the heal and stealth gyro) ... and my dps is very very good. i always have arcdps on and i do fractals every day.. (fractal god).. sooo i do know what good dps looks like for EVERY fractal. i would take some vids for your disbelief, but i like that nobody plays scrapper now.. its potent.

just try it.. i dare u 🙂

[Rosey.1608]

I despise the scrapper changes.  Engi is my main, has been since I started playing, I have thousands of hours on my engi.  Pre-change I had about 1700 out of 2.2k hours on scrapper, rough estimate.  Now I just can't stand it.

My biggest issue is that we essentially have to use the function gyro off cd.  I like to have a more reactive play style, and it just cripples the ability to do that.  I'm glad that there are people who are enjoying it now, don't get me wrong, but it's completely ruined for me.  Bummer, since mech gets nerfed constantly and I don't enjoy condi holosmith, so I'm just stuck playing power holo or heal alac mech. 

Personally I like options 2 and 3.  I think adding more combo finishers to the pool of eligible quickness-givers would make me far more inclined to pick it back up, because then I could still save function gyro for emergencies and there would be more flexibility for heal-quick scrappers as well.

At the end of the day, I think it's wild that they give herald, firebrand, harbinger, and deadeye ways to give quickness super easily (even if they aren't all DPS gods), but specs like scrapper and untamed have to figuratively (or literally, for us scrappers) leap through hoops and clap three times to provide it. 

[Jerus.4350]

4 hours ago, Rosey.1608 said:

My biggest issue is that we essentially have to use the function gyro off cd

But you’re less reliant on function gyro now than you were before.  If you didn’t want to use function gyro before you had to pump your boon duration up quite a bit.  Now every form of quick scrapper has far more access to quickness than before and it’s pretty easy to free up function gyro with smaller changes.  

[oCynder.5136]

It's not about adapting to changes. The dropped in playrate is because DPS Quick Scrap was very fluid, although it is jaily that you must take gyros, but granting SS and quick was a VERY nice feeling and VERY fluid in terms of rotation. Ever since they changed this to blasting/leaping to give quick, it forces you to use two skills to provide quick. You can't essentially preboon efficiently without sacrificing tons of DPS.

A lot of the comments I read said the changes are fine and I bet they all just play Healscrap. Healscrap? Maybe it's fine there but DPS Quick Scrap is the main problem here. It feels awful just to press hammer 3 for quick on top of a combo field. You are locked in this animation. You must be mindful that you must have a combo field out first which is a higher priority before blasting to provide quick. It is clunky to play. It never felt great to play. It's bad design.

Look at every other supports out there. They have a much easier access to the essential boon by pressing one button. Want quick? Just press one botton while targetting a boss. Want alac? Press one button to provide alac that doesn't need a target. Scrapper? I bet someone gonna say "you have other fields to use from other players" but you are relying on their field to be active at the time and it isn't reliable with the puke of a mess. What happens if you can't see their fields due to Effect LOD or low character model limit? This is a problem. You should not rely on others just to drop your quick for blasting. You can't leap in place with hammer since it is 3 leaps forced movement forward or towards a target.

The design as it currently stands is clunky to play.

My suggestion to fix this they could just provide quick via toolbelt and thus giving the ability to bring any utilities as a scrapper. Rather being forced to take skills that blast on top of a blast finisher or leaps on a combo finisher. Press F5 to provide quick. Press F1 F2, or whatever to provide quick. Maybe they could change how F5 works to be a big pulsing quick. There are tons of options they can do with toolbelt interaction here if they go with this route.

Edited September 21, 2023 by oCynder.5136
corrected about blast finisher to combo finisher and added "forced leaps"

[doc.9162]

46 minutes ago, oCynder.5136 said:

It's not about adapting to changes. The dropped in playrate is because DPS Quick Scrap was very fluid, although it is jaily that you must take gyros, but granting SS and quick was a VERY nice feeling and VERY fluid in terms of rotation. Ever since they changed this to blasting/leaping to give quick, it forces you to use two skills to provide quick. You can't essentially preboon efficiently without sacrificing tons of DPS.

A lot of the comments I read said the changes are fine and I bet they all just play Healscrap. Healscrap? Maybe it's fine there but DPS Quick Scrap is the main problem here. It feels awful just to press hammer 3 for quick on top of a combo field. You are locked in this animation. You must be mindful that you must have a combo field out first which is a higher priority before blasting to provide quick. It is clunky to play. It never felt great to play. It's bad design.

Look at every other supports out there. They have a much easier access to the essential boon by pressing one button. Want quick? Just press one botton while targetting a boss. Want alac? Press one button to provide alac that doesn't need a target. Scrapper? I bet someone gonna say "you have other fields to use from other players" but you are relying on their field to be active at the time and it isn't reliable with the puke of a mess. What happens if you can't see their fields due to Effect LOD or low character model limit? This is a problem. You should not rely on others just to drop your quick for blasting. You can't leap in place with hammer since it is 3 leaps.

The design as it currently stands is clunky to play.

My suggestion to fix this they could just provide quick via toolbelt and thus giving the ability to bring any utilities as a scrapper. Rather being forced to take skills that blast on top of a blast finisher or leaps on a blast finisher. Press F5 to provide quick. Press F1 F2, or whatever to provide quick. Maybe they could change how F5 works to be a big pulsing quick. There are tons of options they can do with toolbelt interaction here if they go with this route.

lol you sound like me a couple of months ago.. look, they not gonna change it, your not the first to rage and rant about it, hell i was posting stuff  b4 the changes.. i almost quit the game cause i was so bummed (soto kept me interested tbh).. but hell because i was forced to pay attention to combo fields, its kinda changed how i play the game now.. my healers are more effective because of it.. and i'm more aware of whats happening during a fight.. there are subjectively worse quick /dps options than engineer.. imo (catalyst. berserker, deadeye, untamed all have drawbacks)

i'm sorry you haven't adjusted to the change, pfft all i can say is give it an honest go, or move on to herald 🙂

peace 🖖

[Jerus.4350]

58 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said:

His spelling and grammar are too good to sound like you.

 

If they don't, then they're bad game devs, full stop. So is that it, you think ANet are bad developers?

This isn't about "adapting" to changes. This is about the changes being incredibly bad decisions. And poo-pooing people for rightfully criticizing poor design does absolutely nothing constructive.

Yeah, well you know, that’s just like your opinion, man.

[oCynder.5136]

There is a rotation guide on the recent DPS quick scrapper but it has fallen out of favor due to better DPS quick options out there that feels better to play.

I dropped DPS Quickscrap because of this change not because I'm not adapting to the changes but it just does not feel great to play. If it is clunky to play and does not feel great to play, then it is bad design. It may look great on paper but when played, it is completely different.

The question here: What do you prefer to play? A class that is fluid to play? Or a class that feels very clunky to play?

Like some people agreed to one thing, we shouldn't be jailed to using gyros again. OP has listed that as an option in his post as a suggestion. They could do this until they come up with a better idea. Or better yet, we provide more suggestions and/or feedback to Anet so they can fix an elite spec that feels clunky to play.

But here's my issue as it currently stands in the combo field to combo finisher (blast and leaps) to provide quick. It is the same issue as you are still forced to take utilities and skills that provide combo fields and blasts/leaps to provide quick. This is the same issue as jailing gyros. Which brings to OP second suggestion. They can add more to provide quick (whirl finishers, etc), but again, we are back at the same thing we need to press two buttons to provide quick while many other classes just need less time to set up. If you are a healscrap, you don't care about any of this.

Allowing to use explosives to provide quick is a cool concept what OP suggested in the 3rd point, but again Anet needs to look at all skills that has Explosive tag. And it would not feel great IMO because you must take a kit to do explosives. And they're not fun if you have to spam 111111111111111111111111 to provide quick. Feels like we are going back to core days of grenade 1 spam again.

Reasons why I suggested the idea of providing quick on toolbelt and with the idea of F5 as a pulsing quickness. You can essentially take any utilities and as long you press a toolbelt skill, you can provide quick. So this way you aren't jailed to pressing two buttons to provide quick (one combo field + one combo finisher [blast or leap]). You would have more free reign on what kind of utilities to bring as well rather you have to take blast finishers just for quick.

Edited September 21, 2023 by oCynder.5136

[Vandal.5621]

1 hour ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Yeah, well you know, that’s just like your opinion, man.

And the opinion of 75% of Scrapper players.

[Jerus.4350]

44 minutes ago, oCynder.5136 said:

There is a rotation guide on the recent DPS quick scrapper but it has fallen out of favor due to better DPS quick options out there that feels better to play.

I dropped DPS Quickscrap because of this change not because I'm not adapting to the changes but it just does not feel great to play. If it is clunky to play and does not feel great to play, then it is bad design. It may look great on paper but when played, it is completely different.

The question here: What do you prefer to play? A class that is fluid to play? Or a class that feels very clunky to play?

Like some people agreed to one thing, we shouldn't be jailed to using gyros again. OP has listed that as an option in his post as a suggestion. They could do this until they come up with a better idea. Or better yet, we provide more suggestions and/or feedback to Anet so they can fix an elite spec that feels clunky to play.

But here's my issue as it currently stands in the combo field to combo finisher (blast and leaps) to provide quick. It is the same issue as you are still forced to take utilities and skills that provide combo fields and blasts/leaps to provide quick. This is the same issue as jailing gyros. Which brings to OP second suggestion. They can add more to provide quick (whirl finishers, etc), but again, we are back at the same thing we need to press two buttons to provide quick while many other classes just need less time to set up. If you are a healscrap, you don't care about any of this.

Allowing to use explosives to provide quick is a cool concept what OP suggested in the 3rd point, but again Anet needs to look at all skills that has Explosive tag. And it would not feel great IMO because you must take a kit to do explosives. And they're not fun if you have to spam 111111111111111111111111 to provide quick. Feels like we are going back to core days of grenade 1 spam again.

Reasons why I suggested the idea of providing quick on toolbelt and with the idea of F5 as a pulsing quickness. You can essentially take any utilities and as long you press a toolbelt skill, you can provide quick. So this way you aren't jailed to pressing two buttons to provide quick (one combo field + one combo finisher [blast or leap]). You would have more free reign on what kind of utilities to bring as well rather you have to take blast finishers just for quick.

Take a look at toolbelt skill cooldowns.  They are quite varied and unless the quickness somehow scaled based on cooldown we’ll end up in a similar situation where there are more efficient and less efficient options.  Rifle turret would be a must for example.  
 

We’re always going to be hitting certain things off cooldown, that’s just how the game works if you want to play efficiently.  Blast/leap combos are something Engi has in abundance.  Don’t like hammer3? Ok, take blast gyro instead of shredder and work healing turret or medkit5 into the rotation and add some boon duration.  It’s less efficient but we have options.  People don’t want to take those options because of the DPS loss, but what makes you think that won’t happen with any system?  We’ll pigeon hole ourselves into whatever comes out as the most efficient option and then complain that we don’t have flexibility again, and people will still whine that they have to use function gyro off cooldown instead of just bumping up their boon duration.

[Jerus.4350]

24 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said:

And the opinion of 75% of Scrapper players.

Based on metrics that we know are faulty both in data collection and interpretation (people can stop playing scrapper for reasons other than not liking the change, like maybe because herald is freakin broken).

I can say that most Engi mains I talk to like the change, and it’s no more or less valid than your claim.

[Vandal.5621]

15 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Based on metrics that we know are faulty both in data collection and interpretation (people can stop playing scrapper for reasons other than not liking the change, like maybe because herald is freakin broken).

Hide your head in the sand all you want. You're just denying reality. Scrapper had a good representation in all modes until the change happened, and the popularity cratered with it.

16 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

I can say that most Engi mains I talk to like the change

Because the ones that don't like it QUIT THE SPEC.

You are wrong. Period.

[oCynder.5136]

59 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

Take a look at toolbelt skill cooldowns.  They are quite varied and unless the quickness somehow scaled based on cooldown we’ll end up in a similar situation where there are more efficient and less efficient options.  Rifle turret would be a must for example. 

Then that is a thing Anet can look into for quick duration based on CD. They have done something to relics where its effectiveness is based on the elite's CD so they can do something similar here. I thought about it after I posted it and then you mentioned it. So they can be varied quickness durations that scaled based on CD from the toolbelt.

  

56 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

I can say that most Engi mains I talk to like the change

I used to like quick scrapper before the change but I dropped this due to its clunkiness. I still play DPS scrapper since that didn't get changed much. Just the quick portion of scrapper. So you are saying I like the quickness application change? Why would I go on here and argue about this then? So you haven't spoke to me about this so that makes me not an Engi main?

Edited September 22, 2023 by oCynder.5136
edited to include another quote rather putting another post in. add more info

[Jerus.4350]

44 minutes ago, oCynder.5136 said:

 

I used to like quick scrapper before the change but I dropped this due to its clunkiness. I still play DPS scrapper since that didn't get changed much. Just the quick portion of scrapper. So you are saying I like the quickness application change? Why would I go on here and argue about this then? So you haven't spoke to me about this so that makes me not an Engi main?

Not at all, you obviously don’t like it.  My point was the anecdotal evidence of my experience that the Engi main people I know seem to enjoy the change for the most part is just as valid as using wingman statistics with no context as hard facts.

 

There are obviously plenty of people who don’t like the change.  But it is functional and objectively more flexible than the previous iteration. I don’t see any of these suggestions as improvements personally.  I like combos and I liked the old version.  I prefer this version because of the increased flexibility and improvements to both condi quick and heal scrapper.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Current Scrapper needs to put in a too much work for too little output compared to other professions. It's a play-style where merely pressing buttons out of order causes you to completely fail at your rotation.

My suggestion is to make Function Gyro essentially a "toolbelt kit" with an initiative resource. Basically:

1. Use Function Gyro to flip all of your toolbelt skills and causes your Gyro to orbit around yourself. Recast to flip back.
2. You have 1 skill for damage, 1 skill for healing, 1 skill for defense/utility.
3. You have another costless skill that allows you to move your Gyro from yourself to a set area like a Ventari tablet.
4. When traited, all of these skills will provide Quickness.
5. Down and res functionality can be re-added through traits.

This means that it takes 2 simple button presses to begin applying Quickness around yourself and everything else just enhances the flexibility of the mechanic. Swapping between Function Gyro and toolbelt could get annoying, but assuming Quickness application and Gyro cooldown are tuned to not be annoying (For example, a 15 second recharge for each initiative point and Quickness applied for 20 seconds with max boon duration means you only need to swap in and out every 45 seconds to apply Quickness for a minute.)

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Atmaweapon.7345

[Alcatraznc.3869]

22 hours ago, Atmaweapon.7345 said:

Function Gyro replaces all of your toolbelt skills and causes your Gyro to orbit around yourself.

 

No thanks.

 

That change alone doesnt would make me want to stop touching Scrapper. 

[Kuma.1503]

Just let us use any finisher to provide quickness. That would open up more build options. Yes, that means we could mortar 1 to spam quickness, but considering herald can just press spinny hammers and auto attack to maintain theirs... I think we'll be fine. 

[zeyeti.8347]

The purpose of this change was to not have off cooldown gameplay and forced utilities ,  we still use gyros and we are forced to use them off cd , and now you even have to use hammer 3 who lock you down in animation for 1-2 sec... the only change is now we can take the mine ... huge improvement ...

Problem with scrapper , same as chrono , is this e-spec has not special mechanics changes , you just have access to f5 function gyro , and  gyros and that basically the scrapper , as chrono : f5 and pits endpoint.

The class wasn't played much before the patch and it's even worse now , so it's a mistake (pve endgame wise) .

Also we have to admit that scrapper is in competition with herald , the two quickness power dps , and well ... herald can maintain 20-25 might , prot. , fury , has a variety of support (ventari bubble , dwarf road), while scrapper ... well has superspeed and thats all , not hard to see why it hasn't any popularity , i personnaly just use my scrapper to speed up desmina in river of souls , it's a bit sad.

3rd AA from hammer should be a finisher , like a swirl , and kinetic accelerators shoudl also allow quickness trough swirl combos.

4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Just let us use any finisher to provide quickness. That would open up more build options. Yes, that means we could mortar 1 to spam quickness, but considering herald can just press spinny hammers and auto attack to maintain theirs... I think we'll be fine. 

Thats literally my thoughts , but let face a fact : herald is busted right now.

[wasss.1208]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:43 AM, oCynder.5136 said:

Allowing to use explosives to provide quick is a cool concept what OP suggested in the 3rd point, but again Anet needs to look at all skills that has Explosive tag. And it would not feel great IMO because you must take a kit to do explosives. And they're not fun if you have to spam 111111111111111111111111 to provide quick. Feels like we are going back to core days of grenade 1 spam again.

They would have to look at explosive tags on weapons first. Scrapper has one on low cd, Rifle has one AA, and P/P has none. They could update the weapons, so all of them has an explosion tag on a ~4-6 second skill, then give us a grandmaster, that gives ~6-8 seconds of quickness. It could definitely work, and wouldn't be an outlier compared to Herald, Bladesworn ... and all the rest of the crew, that provide their boon, by just existing. Alternatively they could lowball this amount, so healer builds are forced into boon duration, which they do anyways, but dpssupports will slot in either mine, grenade, or both, which provide multiple explosions.

 

On 9/22/2023 at 12:43 AM, oCynder.5136 said:

Reasons why I suggested the idea of providing quick on toolbelt and with the idea of F5 as a pulsing quickness. You can essentially take any utilities and as long you press a toolbelt skill, you can provide quick. So this way you aren't jailed to pressing two buttons to provide quick (one combo field + one combo finisher [blast or leap]). You would have more free reign on what kind of utilities to bring as well rather you have to take blast finishers just for quick.

This is also a great alternative!
It wouldn't force us to slot any skill, just force us, to spam toolbelts. As a DPS player, you do that anyways, as a healer player, boon duration will help you out.

 

On 9/22/2023 at 2:10 AM, oCynder.5136 said:

Then that is a thing Anet can look into for quick duration based on CD. They have done something to relics where its effectiveness is based on the elite's CD so they can do something similar here. I thought about it after I posted it and then you mentioned it. So they can be varied quickness durations that scaled based on CD from the toolbelt.

On 9/22/2023 at 1:40 AM, Jerus.4350 said:

Take a look at toolbelt skill cooldowns.  They are quite varied and unless the quickness somehow scaled based on cooldown we’ll end up in a similar situation where there are more efficient and less efficient options.  Rifle turret would be a must for example.  

Or they could just slap 10 seconds of quickness on a single toolbelt use, plus whatever extra boon duration the trait gives. Will it overcap quickness? Obviously. Does it matter? Considering what the other alternatives bring, I would argue, that it doesn't.

[Vandal.5621]

With the short bow bombing expectations, being one of the worst weapons introduced in years, it's time to fix ANet's mistake.

 

Fix Quick Scrapper.

Edited January 12 by Vandal.5621

[Zzik.5873]

Honestly with the new shortbow coming, have lost faith in anet ability to make fun build out of engi. I dont expect nothing to change or get better. Only thing I expect is for engi gameplay to keep getting simplier and simplier. Anet kill my love of engi when they remove the golem and drop the shortbow trailer.

[Zzik.5873]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:04 AM, zeyeti.8347 said:

The purpose of this change was to not have off cooldown gameplay and forced utilities ,  we still use gyros and we are forced to use them off cd , and now you even have to use hammer 3 who lock you down in animation for 1-2 sec... the only change is now we can take the mine ... huge improvement ...

Problem with scrapper , same as chrono , is this e-spec has not special mechanics changes , you just have access to f5 function gyro , and  gyros and that basically the scrapper , as chrono : f5 and pits endpoint.

The class wasn't played much before the patch and it's even worse now , so it's a mistake (pve endgame wise) .

Also we have to admit that scrapper is in competition with herald , the two quickness power dps , and well ... herald can maintain 20-25 might , prot. , fury , has a variety of support (ventari bubble , dwarf road), while scrapper ... well has superspeed and thats all , not hard to see why it hasn't any popularity , i personnaly just use my scrapper to speed up desmina in river of souls , it's a bit sad.

3rd AA from hammer should be a finisher , like a swirl , and kinetic accelerators shoudl also allow quickness trough swirl combos.

Thats literally my thoughts , but let face a fact : herald is busted right now.

They even want you out of superspeed by adding lot of support option on the trait below lol.

[Jerus.4350]

1 hour ago, Vandal.5621 said:

With the short bow bombing expectations, being one of the worst weapons introduced in years, it's time to fix ANet's mistake.

 

Fix Quick Scrapper.

I see nothing broken.  Combo fields are fun.

[Vandal.5621]

7 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

I see nothing broken.  Combo fields are fun.

Wasting your core spec feature just for a combo field is not fun. And the short bow is god awful.

[Stalima.5490]

Did you ever consider that half the popularity of scrapper was because playing it incorrectly as a healer was slightly overpwered when it is supposed to be a melee brawler.

[Trevor Philips.3824]

The kinetic accelerator trait change made scrapper worse in PvE, but stronger in PvP.

Would have been nice if whirl finishers proc'd the trait as well.
They really should encourage people to save function gyro for reviving though, that I agree with.