Sword/Warhorn OP -> Nerf Kata instead of the weapon????

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

condi virtuoso should be nerfed i agree. should be around 39k. but weaver/cata shouldn't be buffed. because balance is about dps everywhere across the board and the ceiling should be 45k. i think you have a hard time understanding that because you lack endgame content experience but that is how it should be. they will never be able to balance the game that way because the gap in skill level between players is just too big. some people will always be doing low dps no matter what the benchmark is, that can't be fixed by balancing

As mentioned earlier it would be a lot more realistic balancing using the 95 percentile calculation.  Also needs to be on an appropriate target (not a static target dummy)

 

[peperoncino.2516]

2 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

weaver/cata shouldn't be buffed. because balance is about dps everywhere across the board

yet weaver is nerfed because of its absurd golem (static boss with no mechanics) performance, not because of its "dps everywhere across the board"

nice contradiction, aint it? 

[xChris.8904]

3 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

yet weaver is nerfed because of its absurd golem (static boss with no mechanics) performance, not because of its "dps everywhere across the board"

nice contradiction, aint it? 

most fights can be treated like a static boss with no mechanics for the most part. weaver got nerfed because of fireworks dropping from 10-7%. and the elements of rage nerf which i don't agree with, it could have stayed as it was. considering that it also lost damage due to wildfire. balancing using 95% of the bench would be ok but you still have to realize that most people can't get anywhere near that. so they would still complain. balancing based on utility/range capabilities should definitely be a thing as well. but as i said previously, in most cases you can handle the target like it is a dps golem and do a golem rotation with minor adjustments here and there. 

[peperoncino.2516]

7 minutes ago, xChris.8904 said:

 in most cases

3 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

dps everywhere across the board

pick one.

[xChris.8904]

3 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

pick one.

pick one of what? i said 2 completely different things in 2 different sentences and you went and quoted them seperatly...

[peperoncino.2516]

7 minutes ago, xChris.8904 said:

pick one of what? i said 2 completely different things in 2 different sentences and you went and quoted them seperatly...

according to you, balancing should be "about dps everywhere across the board", but you cant achieve decent balance doing that for as long as "in most cases" exist for some specs but not others. i see it as a drawback, and in weavers case theres literally nothing to compensate for it.

[xChris.8904]

23 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

according to you, balancing should be "about dps everywhere across the board", but you cant achieve decent balance doing that for as long as "in most cases" exist for some specs but not others. i see it as a drawback, and in weavers case theres literally nothing to compensate for it.

you think most cases don't exist for condi virtuoso for example? do you really believe that condi virtuoso is best in slot everywhere? there are many bosses i could name where any experienced player would never play it: VG, KC, CA, Adina, Qadim, Harvest Temple. And many others where it would just not be able to compete with a catalyst/weaver. So obviously you can't balance going by specific numbers on every boss. That is impossible and you can't track them either way. There will always be some people overperforming. With "everywhere across the board" i mean everything needed to be nerfed. You can't exclude catalyst. Everything should be between 40-45k. That balance should be made based on complexity and dps uptime as well. These builds (like cvirt) will take the lowest spots. But you can't say catalyst didn't need to be nerfed because few people play it. I mean that will always be the case, you still can't have 1 single build doing 47k. There is no way to perfectly balance between personal skill level so people should stop bringing that as an argument. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by xChris.8904

[peperoncino.2516]

6 minutes ago, xChris.8904 said:

you think most cases don't exist for

you are right, they do exist. tho some of the cases you listed were imo introduced just as a way to just keep certain playstyles somewhat viable, but i digress. issue is, pweaver exists, and is barely worth it in situations where "most cases" dont apply, all while encountering them much more often.

58 minutes ago, xChris.8904 said:

That is impossible and you can't track them either way

you can in fact, for even players have hard data on what specs are being run and where. would be insane to assume anet do not possess better numbers. 

1 hour ago, xChris.8904 said:

That balance should be made based on complexity and dps uptime as well.

i completely agree. 

1 hour ago, xChris.8904 said:

There is no way to perfectly balance between personal skill level so people should stop bringing that as an argument. 

if there is no way to "perfectly balance between skill level" then balance should not "be made based on complexity" as you claimed it.

1 hour ago, xChris.8904 said:

But you can't say catalyst didn't need to be nerfed because few people play it

i once again agree. if something is op then it should be dealt with, no matter how many people are actually capable of riding the tide. i think its overall healthier this way for the game.

[xChris.8904]

2 hours ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

you are right, they do exist. tho some of the cases you listed were imo introduced just as a way to just keep certain playstyles somewhat viable, but i digress. issue is, pweaver exists, and is barely worth it in situations where "most cases" dont apply, all while encountering them much more often.

you can in fact, for even players have hard data on what specs are being run and where. would be insane to assume anet do not possess better numbers. 

i completely agree. 

if there is no way to "perfectly balance between skill level" then balance should not "be made based on complexity" as you claimed it.

i once again agree. if something is op then it should be dealt with, no matter how many people are actually capable of riding the tide. i think its overall healthier this way for the game.

i know the hard data and exactly because i can see myself on wingman, i know that my numbers are not something based on which a spec should be balanced. These data are good to give you an idea about certain things but there are many factors which make them unreliable. Balance based on complexity should definitely be a thing, i mean some builds are objectively harder than others no matter how you look at it. And that is why i hope they will realize hammer needs a buff atm. At the same time complexity can be subjective and you still can't exactly nail that part. Reason being, the skill level gap. That issue can't be fixed, people are complaining all the time about the "0,001%" and "speedruns" and "snowcrows" etc but these also have to be taken into account when balancing. Usually it becomes clear that something needs to be balanced by having these situations (not by taking into account what the average player does). In the end elementalist is always going to be a class with less playtime than others 

[peperoncino.2516]

30 minutes ago, xChris.8904 said:

These data are good to give you an idea

well how good exactly the idea is, when you say it yourself

31 minutes ago, xChris.8904 said:

but there are many factors which make them unreliable

okay. so the data is ultimately unreliable due to "factors", got it lol

34 minutes ago, xChris.8904 said:

Balance based on complexity should definitely be a thing

4 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

balance should be made based on complexity and dps uptime

yet once again, according to you

4 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

There is no way to perfectly balance between personal skill level so people should stop bringing that as an argument

uhm... anyway, you first? like, if there is no way to perfectly balance based on how complex some specs are, then why do it according to how complex people think some specs are? personally, i dont care for hard to reach skill ceiling or supposed "complexity", its very subjective either way and game actually advertises elementalist as one of the harder to play profs.

meanwhile, devs are just nerfing specs based not on how much utility they provide, not on how quickly they can adapt to any given situation, not even on what "roles" can spec play, but entirely on how much damage they can dish out against a generic unmoving mannequin of a boss under perfect conditions... when most of pve fights are not that, but such balance decisions make it so playing any other scenario is outright painful with no real upsides anywhere.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

meanwhile, devs are just nerfing specs based not on how much utility they provide, not on how quickly they can adapt to any given situation, not even on what "roles" can spec play, but entirely on how much damage they can dish out against a generic unmoving mannequin of a boss under perfect conditions... when most of pve fights are not that, but such balance decisions make it so playing any other scenario is outright painful with no real upsides anywhere.

The benchmark just made it clear that an extreme amount of power creep was introduced with SotO.  That doesn't mean the dev thought process was "OMG benchmark! Nerf it!"  If they wanted DPS to be more or less where it was pre-SotO, then trimming things back down to that level was always going to be the call benchmark or no.  Presumably, they were fine with the way everyone was performing from bottom to top previously, which of course means that whatever added level of power creep as indicated by the benchmark was above that line.

[peperoncino.2516]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

doesn't mean the dev thought process was "OMG benchmark! Nerf it!"

we can only speculate on that. the reality however is that warhorn released in an unbalanced state, different strats using it were abused to great extent, and as of now whole ele got a nerfbat.

56 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

an extreme amount of power creep was introduced with SotO

well there you have it, a case in point. weaponmaster training, a feature that contributed to so much powercreep introduced with soto, yet instead of directly tackling results of said feature - eles especs having access to other previously espec-specific weapons - they lazily decided on an overall nerf. how the hell is it justified to nerf two spec that were apparently "fine" for months because of a half-arsed balancing on a single offhand weapon?

[rotten.9753]

12 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

videos put on youtube are not just snowcrows players. also the new encounters are balanced between melee and ranged. actually the newest encounters, SotO strikes are just melee dps golems (with only dagda not allowing you to be melee for a few seconds). eod strikes are split, AH and HT are fully melee for a pure dps, ankka and ko favor range more depending on the mechanics you might get. i agree that balance should take dps uptime into account, a fully melee build should be higher than ranged ones. but that is true right now. the highest fully ranged build is probably condi virtuoso at 41k (maybe condi weaver as well at 41k but that requires closer range for primordial stance) and catalyst stands at 43k. i would argue if something needs to change here it is a nerf to virtuoso. in the end i am not sure what you want their balance to be based on.

They are definitely unbalanced, as melee builds cannot compete realistically in ranged encounters while in melee fights ranged builds can because there's no penalty for using ranged builds. You forgot about OLC as an EoD strike, which is definitely a ranged encounter.

Another thing is using plain numbers from benchmarks, they are often made to inflate the final numbers with burst and modified rotations at the end, which mostly affects power builds and Power Catalyst finishes its benchmark with dual air5 and glyph of storms. I'm frankly puzzled why benchmarkers do that, since it only activates neurons in the ANet's balance team and doesn't really change anything. Once ArcDPS is updated, we can compare numbers from real encounters, though this is still not realistic since a lot of players just want to show off with their logs.

Lastly, I would compare SotO strikes to EoD strikes once they have their respective CMs released, until then we can only assume that the dynamics of the fight would be similar to NMs.

 

 

[Serephen.3420]

On 9/28/2023 at 2:48 PM, soulknight.9620 said:

Although i agree, but a fun fact. Ive got 30% more dps with a hammer on my OW cele cata build than sword/dagger. I believe it has something to do with condi application and hybrid nature of the hammer. 

That's nice but openworld cele has little impact on anything outside of that. I was referring to sword itself in comparison to hammer. Which is why the combo is sword/warhorn rather than dagger/warhorn. 

I feel hammer is going to end up completely forgotten and left in it's largely nerfed state because of that 😔

[zeyeti.8347]

On 10/1/2023 at 11:03 AM, xChris.8904 said:

condi virtuoso should be nerfed i agree. should be around 39k. but weaver/cata shouldn't be buffed. because balance is about dps everywhere across the board and the ceiling should be 45k. i think you have a hard time understanding that because you lack endgame content experience but that is how it should be. they will never be able to balance the game that way because the gap in skill level between players is just too big. some people will always be doing low dps no matter what the benchmark is, that can't be fixed by balancing

First of all , i do not lack endgame exp. , don't make suposition about someone who you don't know , i said you could be juicy about yourself , but i also said it could be me , no need to bolster myself up , you can kp.me check (hint : the missing title is on the way and pretty near). 

Just saying it's sad that ele and warrior have so low playrate , but ele is a top of benchmark ? so why nobody except a few are playing it ? damage maybe need to be lwoer , but heck ele could use some help , it's a scuffed gameplay , why do cata have energy do begin with , why does it generation is blocked every time you launch a sphere for 4-5 freaking second , nothing tells you the internal cooldown , nothing evens tells you it exist , if irst tough it was a bug ... , you have to guess or have played it enough to get the muscular reflexes , but never change your class or those reflexes are going away , nothing tells you how much energy you have , maybe it's 19 maybe it's 20 ... make a big difference ! tempest has 4 sec cast time spells , only spec in the game with so huge cast time , and for what ? a fiery tornado who don't even give 25 might  and is 180 aoe wide , a stormfront who does indeed decent damage , a rocky ride who's purpose is to look kitten without efficiency , and a bubble you don't wanna launch cause as healer you don't want your watre attunement on a 20-18,5 sec cd.

the problem comes from this design with 20 weapon skills , in anet mind it's pretty simple , ele need to be scuffed beacsue it has 20 weapon skills ... but how much weapon skills you use when you play a specific role ? condi weaver goes earth fire fire  earth, and water and air ? no , so thats 10+ skills you don't use. Something who is played so low need to be rethinked and deeply looked into.

What you say about dps is partailly true , for ele at least , a bad ele will do nothing , a good one will do great things , a bad mechanist will do good , a good will do good too if you see what i mean , some Qol like allowing cata to have beter use of empower empowerement for example , this buff is a joke how many players are able to maintain 10 stacks seriously , even on the golem you saw pros not getting it 100% of the time . They could lower the time to overload an affinity , give better access to stab for the htemp

The truth is , they don't knwo how to balance the ele , cause average player does nothing with it , except playing the carpet body pillow , and players like you who represent 0,0000xxxx% of the playrate are able to wreck the arcdps ... if they balance around those players , ele is never gonna be an ok pick , this class should be advertise as balance free for all to new players , because i know players who have invested much time in it and just leaved the game cause of it's hard gameplay , unforgiving rotation , and permanent changes from anet , nerf , buff , nerf buff , nerf then renerf again the little buff , then renerf again ... that shows off anet is unable to balance this class , it's either completely broken for some player and mainstream garbage for most players , and the many changes it faces show again what i said , unable to balance it properly !

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity just reminder , that here is what we call unbalance ! Also anet could name those patches : UNbalance patches.

Edited October 2, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Nephalem.8921]

On 10/1/2023 at 3:00 PM, xChris.8904 said:

you think most cases don't exist for condi virtuoso for example? do you really believe that condi virtuoso is best in slot everywhere? there are many bosses i could name where any experienced player would never play it: VG, KC, CA, Adina, Qadim, Harvest Temple. And many others where it would just not be able to compete with a catalyst/weaver. So obviously you can't balance going by specific numbers on every boss. That is impossible and you can't track them either way. There will always be some people overperforming. With "everywhere across the board" i mean everything needed to be nerfed. You can't exclude catalyst. Everything should be between 40-45k. That balance should be made based on complexity and dps uptime as well. These builds (like cvirt) will take the lowest spots. But you can't say catalyst didn't need to be nerfed because few people play it. I mean that will always be the case, you still can't have 1 single build doing 47k. There is no way to perfectly balance between personal skill level so people should stop bringing that as an argument. 

4 of those listed bosses have lower armor...

There was even a cvirtu adina speedkill ages ago. its far from trash there. Harvest temple has power virtus. And cata was not even bis when it had a 46k bench there. air5 and stormsoul are not working on ht.

Hammer cata is doing something like 38k btw. Every power ele build is sw/wh. its boring. some hammer skills do in pvp more dmg than pve.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[soulknight.9620]

17 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

First of all , i do not lack endgame exp. , don't make suposition about someone who you don't know , i said you could be juicy about yourself , but i also said it could be me , no need to bolster myself up , you can kp.me check (hint : the missing title is on the way and pretty near). 

I wouldnt bother with this guy. Its a simple sc/benchmarker/elitist view on balance. Tldr version of it is: "if i can be this 0.000001% guy, so can you, just learn to play!". 

Ive personally been acused of having no ideas of the game, the raiding scene, endgame etc while having envoys herald title, all of the frac CMs titles (except cm100 since it didnt exist at that time). Its what these people do. 

They just cant handle the simple truth. If a game balances its content (and yes profession balance is content) for 0.001% of players, the majority of players will not participate in that content and eventually will give up on the game. And ofc its hard for them to understand that weavers/catas are unhappy with this balance patch not because of the nerf in dps itself, but how it was done (like not nerfing overperforming WH, but rather nerfing traits that every single build uses). 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

I wouldnt bother with this guy. Its a simple sc/benchmarker/elitist view on balance. Tldr version of it is: "if i can be this 0.000001% guy, so can you, just learn to play!". 

Ive personally been acused of having no ideas of the game, the raiding scene, endgame etc while having envoys herald title, all of the frac CMs titles (except cm100 since it didnt exist at that time). Its what these people do. 

They just cant handle the simple truth. If a game balances its content (and yes profession balance is content) for 0.001% of players, the majority of players will not participate in that content and eventually will give up on the game. And ofc its hard for them to understand that weavers/catas are unhappy with this balance patch not because of the nerf in dps itself, but how it was done (like not nerfing overperforming WH, but rather nerfing traits that every single build uses). 

Pretty much.  I play what I like and I do just fine even if it isn't meta.  But it's hard not to get tired of your build getting passed over for years while other builds get buff after buff and then actually getting nerfed because they've buffed those builds too much.

[zeyeti.8347]

Feel the same as you guys , was an ele player way before , but the constant changes , the lack of accessibility and all the training ruined after each nerf got rid of my patience , balance is more than number tweaks , even if ele got to a 60k benchmark with the same difficulty it wouldn't rise in popularity , so the problem is somewhere else , QOL ! But cannot blame anet , balancing such a mess must be god tier work ...

6 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

(like not nerfing overperforming WH, but rather nerfing traits that every single build uses). 

Exactly , they nerfed GS for rev but gave vindi. huge +15% damage , so why apply this logic to this only class ? is this balance a seasonal thing were some classes will have the cake and the others the garbage throw up dinner ? Ele had already eaten a lot of garbage in that case , it's full , even the teeths are drowing ...

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by zeyeti.8347