balance is horrible, weapon training is to blame, but there might still be hope. anet needs to act

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

'A Root Cause Analysis is a problem-solving method used to identify the root causes of faults or problems. A factor is considered a root cause if removal thereof from the problem-fault-sequence prevents the final undesirable event from recurring. Short-term actions are not profitable for the organization; thus, RCA help to eliminate the issues permanently"

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://sixsigmastudyguide.com/root-cause-analysis/&ved=2ahUKEwin2Z6fxNqBAxUCmYkEHbjhDToQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2g5tVjXTR5NRLpyL1Gwvhw

OK .. that doesn't change what I said. I mean ... you can google. 🤷‍♂️I'm sure whatever RCA you have done on 'the problem' here has NOTHING to do with your own desires about how the game should work right? Completely unbiased. 🙄

Edited October 3, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[goldengut.9134]

honestly i don't feel they need to remove anything as they need to dial some things back CC is alittle overpowered atm as are barriers and perma stealth,  as for stun breaks and stab. these things are all fine in good but some classes have 2 max and when your stunned every 3rd hit it means nothing. you can't dodge if you are stun locked btw.  in the end it comes down to skill level of the player. as i feel any class can beat any class.

[Burnfall.9573]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK .. that doesn't change what I said. I mean ... you can google. 🤷‍♂️I'm sure whatever RCA you have done on 'the problem' here has NOTHING to do with your own desires about how the game should work right? Completely unbiased. 🙄

You and I with others clearly know that if our desires were met, Stealth Mechanic including Thief Profession would have been reworked to have counterplay with healthy competitive measure. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

You and I with others clearly know that if our desires were met, Stealth Mechanic including Thief Profession would have been reworked to have counterplay with healthy competitive measure. 

Sure ... which means one thing:

The game isn't about what you or I or others desire. That also goes for whatever your definition is of 'healthy competitive gameplay' is either. 

So when you proclaim the fix is simply removing everything in your little list (likely derived simply based on things you don't like and not any sort of professional exercise like RCA, etc ...), you aren't doing so with a top down view of the interests of the game. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Burnfall.9573]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... which means one thing:

The game isn't about what you or I or others desire. That also goes for whatever your definition is of 'healthy competitive gameplay' is either. 

So when you proclaim the fix is simply removing everything in your little list (likely derived simply based on things you don't like and not any sort of professional exercise like RCA, etc ...), you aren't doing so with a top down view of the interests of the game. 

Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic only brings Toxic disinterest to the game and to the players. It brings absolutely nothing Positive to the players experience including to new players and potential players who are the future of the game  

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic only brings Toxic disinterest to the game and to the players. It brings absolutely nothing Positive to the players experience including to new players and potential players who are the future of the game  

Well, that's true for SOME people, but not everyone. No one should pretend what they want is directly related to what is good for the whole of the game. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic only brings Toxic disinterest to the game and to the players. It brings absolutely nothing Positive to the players experience including to new players and potential players who are the future of the game  

mesmers use stealth too...also abusing reflect while using distortion

[Burnfall.9573]

21 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

mesmers use stealth too...also abusing reflect while using distortion

Agreed and this is why I had advocated for Stealth Mechanic to be completely removed from all Professions and to be redesigned and to be exclusively unique only to Thief Profession.

Since Anet refused to do so, removing it completely from all Professions is the last resort and the best choice for the health of the game and for the players experiences including new and potential players experiences

Edited October 4, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Invecta.5321]

People still forget that A-Net is a tiny company. How many of the 400 employees are involved in balancing? Maybe around five to ten?  Five to ten people tasked with balancing 9 classes + 3 specs each + weapon mastery over vastly different content (Open-World, High-End PvE, PvP, WvW). And dont forget stuff like armor stats, runes and relics. GW2 has a highly complex and intertwined combat system, which sets the game apart from many other todays MMORPGs (and one of the reasons many people prefer it over its competition). This intertwined combat system is probably the reason why we mostly get numerical balancing, because gameplay-balancing would be an enormous amount of effort for such a small balance-team. 

I totally get that there are frustrating builds to play against and i also want to smash my keyboard everytime a willbender comes flying through like superman just to oneshot me in a split second before jumping back all the way to Lions Arch (all while having perma aegis and stab). 

But im afraid to say that the capacities are probably not there in order to have the game in a state some players would want it to be. Also, if you ask 10 players on how the game should be balanced you will get 20 different opinions.

 

I want to point out that A-net is still a company and thus profit-oriented. As a dev you can have the coolest and most creative ideas, but if the developer's or publisher's upper-management is mostly fixated on KPIs then sadly there wont be a space for much new and interesting stuff. I guess that is the reason we got so much half-baked and recycled content in the past (starting with Gyala Delve). 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Invecta.5321

[Jedrik.3109]

14 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic only brings Toxic disinterest to the game and to the players. It brings absolutely nothing Positive to the players experience including to new players and potential players who are the future of the game  

Opinion.

Projection.

Skill issue? 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

3 hours ago, Invecta.5321 said:

People still forget that A-Net is a tiny company. How many of the 400 employees are involved in balancing? Maybe around five to ten?  Five to ten people tasked with balancing 9 classes + 3 specs each + weapon mastery over vastly different content (Open-World, High-End PvE, PvP, WvW). And dont forget stuff like armor stats, runes and relics. GW2 has a highly complex and intertwined combat system, which sets the game apart from many other todays MMORPGs (and one of the reasons many people prefer it over its competition). This intertwined combat system is probably the reason why we mostly get numerical balancing, because gameplay-balancing would be an enormous amount of effort for such a small balance-team. 

I totally get that there are frustrating builds to play against and i also want to smash my keyboard everytime a willbender comes flying through like superman just to oneshot me in a split second before jumping back all the way to Lions Arch (all while having perma aegis and stab). 

But im afraid to say that the capacities are probably not there in order to have the game in a state some players would want it to be. Also, if you ask 10 players on how the game should be balanced you will get 20 different opinions.

 

I want to point out that A-net is still a company and thus profit-oriented. As a dev you can have the coolest and most creative ideas, but if the developers or publishers upper-management is mostly fixated on KPIs then sadly there wont be a space for much new and interesting stuff. I guess that is the reason we got so much half-baked and recycled content in the past (starting with Gyala Delve). 

 

 

while i do agree. their biggest mistake imo was laying off DoubleTap...thief advocate and thief main...now we (thieves) will never get good balance around whats required and gray areas...RIP an entire class no one in anet knows how to balance

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

13 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Agreed and this is why I had advocated for Stealth Mechanic to be completely removed from all Professions and to be redesigned and to be exclusively unique only to Thief Profession.

Since Anet refused to do so, removing it completely from all Professions is the last resort and the best choice for the health of the game and for the players experiences including new and potential players experiences

well i dont know how they would balance Veil / torch offhand and ambush skills for mirage...maybe jsut replace ALL stealth with distortion or sub par stealth making MANUAL clicking (lol) required to hit the REAL mesmer? xD that would be annoying asf *CLICK...CLICK! CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK* "SIT STILL DAMNIT!"

[Burnfall.9573]

3 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

while i do agree. their biggest mistake imo was laying off DoubleTap...thief advocate and thief main...now we (thieves) will never get good balance around whats required and gray areas...RIP an entire class no one in anet knows how to balance

 

I will not call out the Anet Dev but all I can say is, Favoritism for Thief Profession is still present within Anet.

This is why I say, if I were to be hired as a Anet dev then being Promoted as a Dev. Lead, I would immediately replace the Dev team and Balance team.

Allowing the most Toxic Profession to go rampant for 11 years. then enhance it with other Profession Identity and Roles to increase its Toxicity to the players experience including to the game environment scenery... Would Never Be Allowed nor Tolerated under my Leadership!!

There need to be a killswitch for Thief Profession alongside with Stealth Mechanic

Edited October 4, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

9 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

I will not call out the Anet Dev but all I can say is, Favoritism for Thief Profession is still present within Anet.

This is why I say, if I were to be hired as a Anet dev then being Promoted as a Dev. Lead, I would immediately replace the Dev team and Balance team.

Allowing the most Toxic Profession to go rampant for 11 years. then enhance it with other Profession Identity and Roles to increase its Toxicity to the players experience including to the game environment scenery... Would Never Be Allowed nor Tolerated under my Leadership!!

wut? toxic ? maybe you are in another world but i feel thief lacks so much attention...

[Burnfall.9573]

10 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

wut? toxic ? maybe you are in another world but i feel thief lacks so much attention...

 

Silent but Deadly---------Quietly Disgruntled Customers

"There’s a certain type of customer lurking in every company’s sales records. This customer is influential on your future business. She’s mindful enough to pay attention to her purchasing experience, and articulate enough to pass on any dissatisfaction to her friends and family. However, she doesn’t provide feedback to you when she experiences a problem; she just walks away.

This is The Silent Customer, a variety of consumer that’s potentially dangerous for your business’ future stability. At the same time, The Silent Customer can be a blessing in disguise; it all depends on how you respond to customer problems, and how your customer engagement process works. This article describes The Silent Customer and lists a few ways you can gather feedback from even these mute consumers—thereby improving your own service outcomes and boosting Customer Engagement.

The Silent Customer is more common than you might think. PeopleMetrics’ Customer Engagement research has found that 1 out of every 4 customers will not tell you if they experience a problem. They won’t complain about a breakdown in service; instead, they will just cease to do business with you and your brand. Furthermore, we have found that these quiet consumers will share their dissatisfaction with at least three other people outside your organization.

Other studies have discovered even higher rates of Silent Consumerism. As Sam Deep and Lyle Sussman write in Smart Moves for People in Charge, one customer service study commissioned by the White House found that for “every 27 dissatisfactions experienced by American consumers, only 1 is voiced in the form of a complaint to the company. But the 26 silent customers don’t stay that way for long—they each tell another 10 about their unhappiness, who turn around and tell another 5. Worse than that, 91% of the mute malcontents will eventually shop around because of their unresolved dissatisfaction.”

https://www.peoplemetrics.com/blog/silent-but-deadly-how-to-learn-from-quietly-disgruntled-customers

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Gendalfs.7521]

7 hours ago, Invecta.5321 said:

People still forget that A-Net is a tiny company. How many of the 400 employees are involved in balancing?

Are you sure? For me it seems like 1 or maybe max 2 guys work on balance. If they had 10+ people working on it, they could test every singe circumstance dont they?

[Invecta.5321]

1 hour ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Are you sure? For me it seems like 1 or maybe max 2 guys work on balance. If they had 10+ people working on it, they could test every singe circumstance dont they?

Depends. I guess its only 2 or 3 people eventually deciding what gets nerfed/buffed/changed. But they probably need class-feedback from multiple A-Net employees playing different types of content.

We have Cal Cohen as Balance-Lead and a few people working with him (e.g. DoubleTap). 

However, i guess A-Net has a rather horizontal and fluid-border development team due to its small size. So there might not be "the" balance team.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Invecta.5321

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

29 minutes ago, Invecta.5321 said:

Depends. I guess its only 2 or 3 people eventually deciding what gets nerfed/buffed/changed. But they probably need class-feedback from multiple A-Net employees playing different types of content.

We have Cal Cohen as Balance-Lead and a few people working with him (e.g. DoubleTap). 

However, i guess A-Net has a rather horizontal and fluid-border development team due to its small size. So there might not be "the" balance team.

 

doubletap is gone.

[Invecta.5321]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

I will not call out the Anet Dev but all I can say is, Favoritism for Thief Profession is still present within Anet.

This is why I say, if I were to be hired as a Anet dev then being Promoted as a Dev. Lead, I would immediately replace the Dev team and Balance team.

Allowing the most Toxic Profession to go rampant for 11 years. then enhance it with other Profession Identity and Roles to increase its Toxicity to the players experience including to the game environment scenery... Would Never Be Allowed nor Tolerated under my Leadership!!

There need to be a killswitch for Thief Profession alongside with Stealth Mechanic

God, can you chill out and keep in mind that you are talking about actual human beings? I have so much empathy for the A-Net employees and forum-mods who have to read through all the toxic crap in this forum on a daily basis.

I get it, every PvP-Game has its own cringe crybaby community who whine about balance all day. But this forum is something else. Literally 90% of this forum's threads are somehow negative and borderline-toxic. 

I fully understand why A-Net keeps community interaction to a minimum. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

Silent but Deadly---------Quietly Disgruntled Customers

"There’s a certain type of customer lurking in every company’s sales records. This customer is influential on your future business. She’s mindful enough to pay attention to her purchasing experience, and articulate enough to pass on any dissatisfaction to her friends and family. However, she doesn’t provide feedback to you when she experiences a problem; she just walks away.

This is The Silent Customer, a variety of consumer that’s potentially dangerous for your business’ future stability. At the same time, The Silent Customer can be a blessing in disguise; it all depends on how you respond to customer problems, and how your customer engagement process works. This article describes The Silent Customer and lists a few ways you can gather feedback from even these mute consumers—thereby improving your own service outcomes and boosting Customer Engagement.

The Silent Customer is more common than you might think. PeopleMetrics’ Customer Engagement research has found that 1 out of every 4 customers will not tell you if they experience a problem. They won’t complain about a breakdown in service; instead, they will just cease to do business with you and your brand. Furthermore, we have found that these quiet consumers will share their dissatisfaction with at least three other people outside your organization.

Other studies have discovered even higher rates of Silent Consumerism. As Sam Deep and Lyle Sussman write in Smart Moves for People in Charge, one customer service study commissioned by the White House found that for “every 27 dissatisfactions experienced by American consumers, only 1 is voiced in the form of a complaint to the company. But the 26 silent customers don’t stay that way for long—they each tell another 10 about their unhappiness, who turn around and tell another 5. Worse than that, 91% of the mute malcontents will eventually shop around because of their unresolved dissatisfaction.”

https://www.peoplemetrics.com/blog/silent-but-deadly-how-to-learn-from-quietly-disgruntled-customers

 

I mean, no one is forcing you to play the game.

Also, you have been pretty vocal about what bothers you. So i guess you dont belong to the "silent" type of consumers. If you were so unhappy about the game, you would have been long gone. You are just mad about the game not being in a state you'd like it to be in and youre getting irrationally emotional about it.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

Silent but Deadly---------Quietly Disgruntled Customers

"There’s a certain type of customer lurking in every company’s sales records. This customer is influential on your future business. She’s mindful enough to pay attention to her purchasing experience, and articulate enough to pass on any dissatisfaction to her friends and family. However, she doesn’t provide feedback to you when she experiences a problem; she just walks away.

This is The Silent Customer, a variety of consumer that’s potentially dangerous for your business’ future stability. At the same time, The Silent Customer can be a blessing in disguise; it all depends on how you respond to customer problems, and how your customer engagement process works. This article describes The Silent Customer and lists a few ways you can gather feedback from even these mute consumers—thereby improving your own service outcomes and boosting Customer Engagement.

The Silent Customer is more common than you might think. PeopleMetrics’ Customer Engagement research has found that 1 out of every 4 customers will not tell you if they experience a problem. They won’t complain about a breakdown in service; instead, they will just cease to do business with you and your brand. Furthermore, we have found that these quiet consumers will share their dissatisfaction with at least three other people outside your organization.

Other studies have discovered even higher rates of Silent Consumerism. As Sam Deep and Lyle Sussman write in Smart Moves for People in Charge, one customer service study commissioned by the White House found that for “every 27 dissatisfactions experienced by American consumers, only 1 is voiced in the form of a complaint to the company. But the 26 silent customers don’t stay that way for long—they each tell another 10 about their unhappiness, who turn around and tell another 5. Worse than that, 91% of the mute malcontents will eventually shop around because of their unresolved dissatisfaction.”

https://www.peoplemetrics.com/blog/silent-but-deadly-how-to-learn-from-quietly-disgruntled-customers

 

The part I like best where you imply you know what the silent customer wants, much better than Anet does. I guess that is why you think you would be such a catch as a dev?

[Burnfall.9573]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

The part I like best where you imply you know what the silent customer wants, much better than Anet does. I guess that is why you think you would be such a catch as a dev?

You are spot on, that is quite the truth

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

You are spot on, that is quite the truth

I also like that implication does not equal truth. I also like the reality that no matter how good you think you would be, it doesn't matter because you don't design the game. It takes more than strong google skills to be an objective game dev. The irony is that if you ever were a dev, you would be the very thing you accuse other devs of being; favoritism to classes. 

The fact is that you are just like anyone else; acting in your own self interests. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Yer.8096]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:30 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

'ANET NEEDS TO ACT'

... all the while, Anet has been making balance patches for 11 years. 🙄

There isn't the emergency here that is implied. Anet will act like they always have, which is to see the impact of how things play in the game, how those things 'bother' them and make changes accordingly. 

I agree with the fact Anet has been making balance patches for all this time. That's why I still believe they deserve a chance (talking about balance only). But, we had 3 new specs in all those 11 years.. In my humble opinion (I'm not a professional player), they had enough time to get some real balance, specially after they splited PvE, PvP and WvW balance.

I know its hard to Anet make small changes to see small results until a good level, but I do think this is the way they can get that. We wait months to have an update wich can change all our build; we should have smaller updates to see little changes and how they perform and groups.

About emergency.... Yes! They really have effort to it. But I understand those who are really angry with Anet; some changes are not emergency, but when you have a lot of effort to understand a build and they just nerf everytime... And thats a common reacton from elementalist players; You train... They nerf again. You try again... Than nerf too. That's why I don't do Raid for so long.. You have to get enough damage in every role (even as support, of course) but sometimes we doesn't have time to train another build again. Its like we are getting punished for our effort in learning a rotation; that's my feeling, of course, it's a personal issue.

I say that as an elementalist player... For some people, those who have proficiency, its easy to get just one build and a good damage. For those who haven't that proficiency, they need to study, train, learn. AND we are forgeting that people who REALLY play as ele (taking ele as exemplar because of my experience) play everywhere, not just in a single golem for rotation or bosses in strike/raid. You need to learn how to survive! That last build SC got to us for elementalist, for example... SO hard to survive with that! Just work situationally. If you get an alternative build to survive, you loose A LOT!

I know that doesn't happen with elementalits only. I thinking about every profession... 11 years later we still didn't get a chance to learn a build and stay with that build and have our time to just play the game in equally (or almost) and train another rotation, new tactics or another role while you enjoy a profession by gamestyle, gameplay, aesthetics or any reason you want. That can be the reasson why Raids are not full of players.

We have an excellent game here. They really try to balance the game (even not satisfied, I thank for that), but I think they still didn't get there... for 11 years.

[Burnfall.9573]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I also like that implication does not equal truth. I also like the reality that no matter how good you think you would be, it doesn't matter because you don't design the game. It takes more than strong google skills to be an objective game dev. The irony is that if you ever were a dev, you would be the very thing you accuse other devs of being; favoritism to classes. 

The fact is that you are just like anyone else; acting in your own self interests. 

 

Obtena, that was not nice

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 hours ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

Opinion.

Projection.

Skill issue? 

Yes.

Absolutely.

Probably. (More below)

6 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

well i dont know how they would balance Veil / torch offhand and ambush skills for mirage...maybe jsut replace ALL stealth with distortion or sub par stealth making MANUAL clicking (lol) required to hit the REAL mesmer? xD that would be annoying asf *CLICK...CLICK! CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK* "SIT STILL DAMNIT!"

Stealth on the mesmer is fine and one of the main reasons I picked it as my first main when the game launched. It's not like they can additively stack it along with distortion, evades, and mobility without giving up some DPS and utility like thieves can. What kind of illusionist can't even cast invisibility spells anyway?

On thief, stealth is fine too if a bit overtuned for certain harassment/escape builds. It would be fine if a thief had to make some tradeoffs between stealth, evasions, shadowsteps, and movement speed. Maybe a movement speed debuff during stealth would work? Honestly, I'd probably be fine if other classes just got more access to the reveal feature with decent durations. Maybe make stealth duration affected by concentration, so users would need to invest gear into making it last lone enough? No more full berserkers or vipers for gankers. 😄 I'd be fine with all these tweaks. Any solution that requires at least some investment in using and countering the feature.