Outnumbered Buff - Re-work Suggestion

[Floz.8904]

Hello, straight to the juicy content.

The current outnumbered buff functions as an incentive to get rewards and provides the recipient with a reward track gain, wxp gain and also means you dont count towards PPK. This encourages a more havoc based, fight dodging, PPT style of play when outnumbered.

I'd like to make a suggestion to reward the smaller, competitive guilds who try to fight bigger guilds when severely outnumbered.

Due to the way target cap works, if you are 15v30, you are doing 100% less damage and 100% healing than the other group assuming similar composition and skill. 15v45 and you may as well log off.

This is not a suggestion to break target cap while outnumbered, but purely a mitigating measure to encourage smaller guilds to still fight in the face of overwhelming odds (similar to Dragon's End and the Commander from the personal story).

I'd like to propose:

- Remove the PPK buffer and let outnumbered combatants count towards score. Thus ensuring that small guilds that feed actually have skin in the game.

- Implement a stat buff to Power, Healing Power, Toughness, Vitality, Condition Damage of +250 each when Outnumbered.

- The above buff only functions when you are in a squad of >5 players and within 360 range of eachother, thus limiting a wild buff to roamers.

As it stands currently, smaller fight focused guilds either have to be 100% better than bigger guilds or are forced to look for content elsewhere.

Big on WvW.

[Chaba.5410]

21 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Remove the PPK buffer and let outnumbered combatants count towards score. Thus ensuring that small guilds that feed actually have skin in the game.

What?  I don't understand how this encourages rewarding outnumbered players.  Getting killed while outnumbered would reward the opponent's score.

[XenesisII.1540]

You don't place a bonus on the outnumbered side, you place a buff on the overwhelming side so the other two underwhelming sides can benefit off it instead. Think outside the box. 🤔

If you need stat boost go take all 3 bloodlusts, fight in your own claimed territory.

You aren't meant to take on bigger groups of equal or greater player skill. If you have a complaint about that, feel free to express it to the boon ball balance person who's currently busy working on something else for the next four months.

Edited October 4, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[TheGrimm.5624]

45 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Hello, straight to the juicy content.

The current outnumbered buff functions as an incentive to get rewards and provides the recipient with a reward track gain, wxp gain and also means you dont count towards PPK. This encourages a more havoc based, fight dodging, PPT style of play when outnumbered.

I'd like to make a suggestion to reward the smaller, competitive guilds who try to fight bigger guilds when severely outnumbered.

Due to the way target cap works, if you are 15v30, you are doing 100% less damage and 100% healing than the other group assuming similar composition and skill. 15v45 and you may as well log off.

This is not a suggestion to break target cap while outnumbered, but purely a mitigating measure to encourage smaller guilds to still fight in the face of overwhelming odds (similar to Dragon's End and the Commander from the personal story).

I'd like to propose:

- Remove the PPK buffer and let outnumbered combatants count towards score. Thus ensuring that small guilds that feed actually have skin in the game.

- Implement a stat buff to Power, Healing Power, Toughness, Vitality, Condition Damage of +250 each when Outnumbered.

- The above buff only functions when you are in a squad of >5 players and within 360 range of eachother, thus limiting a wild buff to roamers.

As it stands currently, smaller fight focused guilds either have to be 100% better than bigger guilds or are forced to look for content elsewhere.

Big on WvW.

As a havoc that will fight while outnumbered, no the removal of PPK will just encourage more people to leave the map. Defenders are already facing more if this is going on and this would feed a side, but not the outnumbered one but the one that has more numbers already.

On top of that, no on any stat bonuses associated to being outnumbered. As discussed before that would also encourage people to leave map but it would be done by people asking others of their same side to leave so that can get bolstered and they could try to farm the other sides that have more so they could gain more. 

Still think we had too much fear of the pip hunter personally and the more even spread of pips and bonus for out numbered could have been done at the same time. 

Recently I was thinking that maybe outnumbered if bolstered might allow all players that are outnumbered to be able to have a +5 supply capacity. That way if they are trying to defend they might have more supplies to try and do that. For a fight to be a fight and not a karma train you need attackers and defenders.

[Zyreva.1078]

As already said plenty of times - having the outnumbered buff does not equal being outnumbered in a fight. And therefore it should never directly impact combat. Want to beat larger numbers? Play better than them. That's how it should be.

Yes, there are mechanics that favour superior numbers dispropoportionally, but those aren't adressed by giving random stat buffs to some players, that might be outnumbering their opposition anyway.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Floz.8904]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What?  I don't understand how this encourages rewarding outnumbered players.  Getting killed while outnumbered would reward the opponent's score.

Aight, let's do this. It doesn't. It is there as a mechanism to introduce an element of risk to the side getting the buff. Sure, you get a buff but at the same time if you don't use it properly - you're now a detriment to your server.

You cannot just have a reward without a risk, this provides risk. Hence the original wording of having skin in the game.

[Floz.8904]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

You don't place a bonus on the outnumbered side, you place a buff on the overwhelming side so the other two underwhelming sides can benefit off it instead. Think outside the box. 🤔

If you need stat boost go take all 3 bloodlusts, fight in your own claimed territory.

You aren't meant to take on bigger groups of equal or greater player skill. If you have a complaint about that, feel free to express it to the boon ball balance person who's currently busy working on something else for the next four months.

This actually makes no sense. Buff the team who is operating at a 200% benefit already by running 30v15 and most probably having the objectives you're fighting over.

I understand target cap effects gameplay, it's a mitigating factor so that all the boon ball complainers have 10% less to complain about.

[Floz.8904]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

As a havoc that will fight while outnumbered, no the removal of PPK will just encourage more people to leave the map. Defenders are already facing more if this is going on and this would feed a side, but not the outnumbered one but the one that has more numbers already.

On top of that, no on any stat bonuses associated to being outnumbered. As discussed before that would also encourage people to leave map but it would be done by people asking others of their same side to leave so that can get bolstered and they could try to farm the other sides that have more so they could gain more. 

Still think we had too much fear of the pip hunter personally and the more even spread of pips and bonus for out numbered could have been done at the same time. 

Recently I was thinking that maybe outnumbered if bolstered might allow all players that are outnumbered to be able to have a +5 supply capacity. That way if they are trying to defend they might have more supplies to try and do that. For a fight to be a fight and not a karma train you need attackers and defenders.

Next challenger, never did this post say "remove PPk". It said "remove your invulnerability to affecting score as a result of dying to the enemy". You can't have your cake and eat it too. By getting an outnumbered fight buff, you are being rewarded for fighting. And thus there needs to be a cost associated with that reward. That is the cost. You may feed the enemy.

I run a fight guild that also fights outnumbered.

How frequently do you think people will leave the map to get 250 stats? If there's content, nobody is leaving it. WvW players arent going to hop map to get a buff if there's available content.

By giving outnumbered more supply capacity, you again encourage PPT. This is an attempt to suggest some PPK balances for Outnumbered fighting.

[Chaba.5410]

9 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Aight, let's do this. It doesn't. It is there as a mechanism to introduce an element of risk to the side getting the buff. Sure, you get a buff but at the same time if you don't use it properly - you're now a detriment to your server.

You cannot just have a reward without a risk, this provides risk. Hence the original wording of having skin in the game.

Players are already making the higher risk choice of trying to fight while outnumbered.  The buff mitigates the effect on score that risk creates.

[Floz.8904]

18 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

As already said plenty of times - having the outnumbered buff does not equal being outnumbered in a fight. And therefore it should never directly impact combat. Want to beat larger numbers? Play better than them. That's how it should be.

Yes, there are mechanics that favour superior numbers dispropoportionally, but those aren't adressed by giving random stat buffs to some players, that might be outnumbering their opposition anyway.

Sometimes yes. But that's on the opposing server to rally their full group on the map to come and fight your group as they are now giving you free stats and have the capability to outnumber you.

The impact of target cap is more substantial than 250 stats for those 5 core stats.

How many times have you and your group beaten double numbers? We do it a decent amount of time.

How many times has your group beaten triple numbers? We never do it.

There's a breakpoint where target cap at triple numbers is just too much to overcome.

If you want to address target cap, you are breaking a fundamental part of how the game works and lifting target cap when outnumbered is a horrendous idea.

This suggestion aims to mitigate the delta between fighting at a -100% deficit up to a -200% defecit.

Even a 10% stat buff is a mitigating measure that helps limit that delta.

Odds are still drastically stacked against the outnumbered group.

[Floz.8904]

1 minute ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Players are already making the higher risk choice of trying to fight while outnumbered.  The buff mitigates the effect on score that risk creates.

Yah agreed. What i'm suggesting is that having the stat increase is a buff that favours that high risk play, but it now also comes with a significant punishment if you stuff up. You could feed 1200 points of ppk and alter your server standing. Not that server standing is a priority, but it can effect your tier and your content for the weeks to follow. I think that's possibly room to hesitate whether you actually do throw your 15 man khorne berserkers into the enemy 50 man.

[Chaba.5410]

10 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Yah agreed. What i'm suggesting is that having the stat increase is a buff that favours that high risk play, but it now also comes with a significant punishment if you stuff up. You could feed 1200 points of ppk and alter your server standing. Not that server standing is a priority, but it can effect your tier and your content for the weeks to follow. I think that's possibly room to hesitate whether you actually do throw your 15 man khorne berserkers into the enemy 50 man.

Oooooo that makes more sense; something that is promoted in conjunction with another change.

[Zyreva.1078]

18 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Sometimes yes.

Not sometimes. A lot of the time. And no, i don't want to call for a zerg to run over a grp of 10 that we normally can beat with 5, just because those 10 randomly got some stat buffs.

18 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

How many times have you and your group beaten double numbers?

Plenty of times.

18 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

How many times has your group beaten triple numbers? We never do it.

Sometimes we do. It's hard and yes, target caps are a big factor in those fights and screw us over more often than not. But again, that is no justification to randomly give some players stat buffs and other's not. You don't fix imbalance by adding more of it.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Hades.8539]

4 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Not sometimes. A lot of the time. And no, i don't want to call for a zerg to run over a grp of 10 that we normally can beat with 5, just because those 10 randomly got some stat buffs.

Plenty of times.

Sometimes we do. It's hard and yes, target caps are a big factor in those fights and screw us over more often than not. But again, that is no justification to randomly give some players stat buffs and other's not. You don't fix imbalance by adding more of it.

15v45 you win? I dunno about that, 5v15 pugs yeh agreed but not comped groups 

[Zyreva.1078]

5 minutes ago, Hades.8539 said:

15v45 you win? I dunno about that, 5v15 pugs yeh agreed but not comped groups 

That's not what was asked and not what i said. We never run such a large grp. And ofc most won outnumbered fights happen vs pugs. We have sometimes won vs guilds comps twice our size tho. Doesn't change my point.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Floz.8904]

6 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Sometimes we do. It's hard and yes, target caps are a big factor in those fights and screw us over more often than not. But again, that is no justification to randomly give some players stat buffs and other's not. You don't fix imbalance by adding more of it.

Can i ask what your fight numbers are usually? If you're 5v15 you'd be the one benefiting from the buff unless you're in NA prime in which case the buff is probably not active anyway due to pop.

This is not imbalance and not random. There are 3 conditions that need to be met for this to occur and you are on the receiving end of the imbalance anyway.

It's interesting though coz it sounds like you often fight outnumbered and go up against triple numbers frequently, so i'm curious to see what your take is?

We frequently 15v50. We've won maybe 1-2 fights over 2 years through lucky/perfect movement and perhaps poor movement from the enemy.

Even with a stat increase you are still most likely going to lose. Why not try and mitigate that gap? Im curious to hear what your solution would be?

[XenesisII.1540]

44 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

This actually makes no sense. Buff the team who is operating at a 200% benefit already by running 30v15 and most probably having the objectives you're fighting over.

I understand target cap effects gameplay, it's a mitigating factor so that all the boon ball complainers have 10% less to complain about.

Read my post again, I'm not saying to buff the the bigger team, I'm saying add a buff to them that benefits the enemies facing them. Go ahead and think about that scenario and what it would help do. Maybe the word "buff" is confusing you.

Edited October 5, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[Zyreva.1078]

19 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Can i ask what your fight numbers are usually?

5 or less vs anything that appears to be somewhat fightable. We tend to aim for fights vs up to 2-3x out numbers, but ofc it isn't uncommon for our enemies to show up with 20-50. I'm also solo roaming quite a bit when not playing with guildies.

19 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

If you're 5v15 you'd be the one benefiting from the buff

Only if my world happens to have the lowest total population on the map. Which again is completely unrelated to actually fighting outnumbered (also we du run less than 5 often, which would exclude us from those stat buffs according to your suggestion).

Realistically the suggested stat buffs are much more likely to not have any impact at all or to favour a larger grp, than to actually even the odds in a fight.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Floz.8904]

13 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Read my post again, I'm not saying to buff the the bigger team, I'm saying add a buff to them that benefits the enemies facing them. Go ahead and think about that scenario and what it would help do. Maybe the word "buff" is confusing you.

Sure was. Because you're referencing a debuff, so you said the exact opposite of what you meant.

[Floz.8904]

7 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

5 or less vs anything that appears to be somewhat fightable. We tend to aim for fights vs up to 2-3x out numbers, but ofc it isn't uncommon for our enemies to show up with 20-50. I'm also solo roaming quite a bit when not playing with guildies.

Only if my world happens to have the lowest total population on the map. Which again is completely unrelated to actually fighting outnumbered (also we du run less than 5 often, which would exclude us from those stat buffs according to your suggestion).

Realistically the suggested stat buffs are much more likely to not have any impact at all or to favour a larger grp, than to actually even the odds in a fight.

Yah so in general the buff will have no effect on your style of gameplay, which is the intent.

If you're running around roaming, vs other roamers there is no change. It is not intended to make roaming different at all - hence the caveats. The scenario in which this negatively impacts you is

- you are on a map with your gang of 3 thieves.

- you have a friendly zerg on the map who proc the outnumbered buff for the enemy.

- the enemy outnumbered group >5 and running within 360 radius of eachother for it to be active fight your 3 man roaming squad.

- you are at a defecit as a result.

The scenario in which that happens is significantly rarer than the scenario of havoc/fight guilds fighting zergs.

Happy to hear an alternative solution?

[XenesisII.1540]

12 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Sure was. Because you're referencing a debuff, so you said the exact opposite of what you meant.

It's not a debuff, it does nothing to the players it's on, it only benefits the players attacking them. 🤷‍♂️

In any case this topic has been discussed dozens of times, no one wants more bonus stats. 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 5, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[Floz.8904]

1 minute ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

It's not a debuff, it does nothing to the players it's on, it only benefits the players attacking them. 🤷‍♂️

Yeah this is very confusing. Now you're arguing my point by disagreeing with me?

Take the scenario in which i have an effect on me that makes me take 10% more damage. A player attacking me does 10% more damage as the result of the debuff currently on me. The player attacking me is benefitted by the debuff currently applied to me.

If this is difficult to follow, i'd suggest wiking Vulnerability.

[Zyreva.1078]

19 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

Yah so in general the buff will have no effect on your style of gameplay, which is the intent.

But it would. We are fighting grps > 5 all the time and whether they have outnumbered buff or not is not in our control. And similar would apply to your grp. You might not get your precious stat buffs when you need them or might even lose them right before engaging in a fight, thinking you still got them.

And since players are generally much more inclined to outnumber their opposition than do the opposite any stat buff is more likely to apply to someone outnumbering. Grps that deliberately seek outnumbered fights are rare across all scales and as such it would be rare for any stat buff to actually benefit someone fighting outnumbered. Even more so when you tie it to a minimum grp size for some reason. And no, we don't play thieves.

Enabeling (more) outnumbered fights would require universal balance changes, not the addition of more imbalance. Changes to the reward system - while not having a direct impact on the outcome of fights - could also incentivise players to not always bring their entire map blob to deal with 1-15 enemies, therefore potentially resulting in less lopsided fights.

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Hades.8539]

22 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

It's not a debuff, it does nothing to the players it's on, it only benefits the players attacking them. 🤷‍♂️

If it does nothing to the players it’s on, it’s not a buff.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Hades.8539

[Floz.8904]

11 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

The solution would be to adress mechanics that disproportionally favour numbers directly. (Offensive) targets caps

You can absolutely not do this. Amending target caps either outnumbered or global breaks the game entirely.

If you have 10 people being hit by grav well or 10 people being hit by arc dividers. that's a worse outcome than getting beaten by a group that has met contingent caveats to have a minor stat buff.

But appreciate you proposing other suggestions rather than taking the standard forum approach of complain with no alternative.