Why is virt the only EOD elite spec with tradeoffs?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

45 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You lose clones, but get daggers that can't be cleaved 😮 I'm sure this doesn't count because you said so or something -similarly like you just did with people listing what other specs lost. If you don't like what virtuoso does, play other especs or core. Super simple stuff.

You certainly know that clones are superior to blades in everyway. Blades can't be cleaved sure, blades can't act as decoy and can't bodyblock projectiles.

The only gamemode where "blades can't be cleaved" actually matters is zerg and we all know how good projectiles work there.

And that's not to say that 1clone+IP does as much  damage as 5 blades.

[Sobx.1758]

19 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You certainly know that clones are superior to blades in everyway. Blades can't be cleaved sure

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm sure this doesn't count because you said so or something -similarly like you just did with people listing what other specs lost.

So you do know that they're not superior in ever way. "They're superior in every way if we exclude..." is always fun to read.

You also downplay the changes other especs introduced (changes which you initially tried claiming didn't even exist), where -for example- "losing weaponswap doesn't matter because... you get assigned another weapon" or "specter just loses stolen skills" while it also loses gap closer on steal and has lowered max ini. Whether you do it intentionally or because of being misinformed, I don't know, but it is what you're doing either way.

19 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

And that's not to say that 1clone+IP does as much  damage as 5 blades.

That's great, so:

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If you don't like what virtuoso does, play other especs or core. Super simple stuff.

 

You have multiple choices with especs, you pick the one that doesn't have x and then you complain that it doesn't have x. Then maybe just pick the other ones instead, even moreso when you think those other options are "superior in every way".

Edited October 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

24 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So you do know that they're not superior in ever way. "They're superior in every way if we exclude..." is always fun to read.

You also downplay the changes other especs introduced (changes which you initially tried claiming didn't even exist), where -for example- "losing weaponswap doesn't matter because... you get assigned another weapon" or "specter just loses stolen skills" while it also loses gap closer on steal and has lowered max ini. Whether you do it intentionally or because of being misinformed, I don't know, but it is what you're doing either way.

That's great, so:

 

You have multiple choices with especs, you pick the one that doesn't have x and then you complain that it doesn't have x. Then maybe just pick the other ones instead, even moreso when you think those other options are "superior in every way".

Did you even read?

Blades can't be cleaved.

Clones aren't cleaved either, if you know how to position that is.

So where are blades better?

In zerg setting both clones and blades suck.

Specter gets shroud in return, Virt gets what for the loss of IP? 

Don't you worry I don't play Virt nor I intend to when every other mesmer spec is miles better. I just find funny that Virt gives IP for literally nothing.

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Blades can't be cleaved.

Clones aren't cleaved either, if you know how to position that is.

They can be cleaved, pierced or otherwise killed either way. If you know how to position that is. That's right, that actually works both ways.

4 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So where are blades better?

At the exact part you specifically had to exclude in your previous post, at the very least.

5 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Specter gets shroud in return, Virt gets what for the loss of IP? 

What was already said in this thread and you keep dismissing basically "because yes", not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, but at the same time no matter how many times it will be repeated, you'll clearly just keep dismissing it like you did until now with responses directly answering and proving your claims wrong. 🙄 

7 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Don't you worry I don't play Virt nor I intend to when every other mesmer spec is miles better.

Why is that a problem for you then? Other people do. And if they want clones -like you do- then they can play other especs.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You certainly know that clones are superior to blades in everyway. Blades can't be cleaved sure, blades can't act as decoy and can't bodyblock projectiles.

 

Elite builds were touted as a different way to play a class.  If you don't like the blade mechanic of the virtuoso, and prefer clones, then there are other mesmer builds that should work just fine for you. 

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Everything works on pve, does Virt do more dps than other specs? Dunno, don't give a rat's kitten about pve, but it's way easier to make something work on pve than in competitive game modes.

This was also debated when Virt was announced, you should design a spec for competitive and then balance for pve, and not the way around. For pve numbers can make something viable, for PvP/wvw not that much.

But yeah should have stated this is with competitive in mind, tho the fact that IP was lost and nothing gained in return still remains true in pve.

Nah it doesnt , tell me what use is for a clone ? act as a decoy on an IA ? not ! in pvp it can certainly confuse or make your opponent misstargeting.

And sorry to "shatter" it , but pve/pvp are two completely different playstyle , numbers can make a class viable ? yes ofc tell that to ele , who is benching the highest , but has a playrate of 2% .

It's lovely you know how pvp work , but don't talk about something you don't know , also 90% of players in gw2 don't give a rat poop about pvp , thats a random number but pvp isn't really enjoyed by a big part of the community , if you tell me the opposite then just tell me why anet is doing pve updates only as content ? it's easy to add some pvp new maps , you just create half of a map and copypaste the other half as a mirror , but they don't do it , why? cause pvp doesnt meet the success they wish , not convinced ? tell me about the E-sport part gw 2 devs were so thrilled about and just burryed in a deep hole cause it was too embarrasing looking at the numbers of viewers for a finale pvp match...

So again , some specs and some skills are designed for specific modes , why do you see revs with hammers in zerg v zerg wvw and everybody in pve despite the hammer ? same as you for virt. in pvp , not peculiarly designed for !

And trade off sincerly .... specter loose his teleport and his steal skill , guardian has all his virtues modifyed , tempest has higher cooldowns on his attunements if he overloads , weaver has a forced 4 sec cooldown on every switch attunement , bladesworn is forced to use gunblade as 2nd weapon , and sovort ...

Edited October 10, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

34 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

They can be cleaved, pierced or otherwise killed either way. If you know how to position that is. That's right, that actually works both ways.

At the exact part you specifically had to exclude in your previous post, at the very least.

What was already said in this thread and you keep dismissing basically "because yes", not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, but at the same time no matter how many times it will be repeated, you'll clearly just keep dismissing it like you did until now with responses directly answering and proving your claims wrong. 🙄 

Why is that a problem for you then? Other people do. And if they want clones -like you do- then they can play other especs.

What the heck is the first argument even, do your opponent even have control over the way you position your clones?

If yor clones are getting killed  before you choose to shatter them it's simply a l2p issue.

The only good argument pro blades than no one mentioned (I wonder why) is that you can stack'em before combat and don't lose them when you kill the opponent.

Which seeing the damage they do is laughable at least.

[zeyeti.8347]

sorry 2x post.

Edited October 10, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

7 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Nah it doesnst , tell me what use is for a clone , act as a decoy on an IA ? not ! in pvp it can certainly confuse or make your opponent misstargeting.

And sorry to "shatter" it , but pve/pvp are two completely different playstyle , numbers can make a class viable ? yes ofc tell that to ele , who is benching the highest , but has a playarte of 2% , it's lovely you know how pvp work , but don't talk about something you don't know , also 90% of players in gw2 don't give a rat poop about pvp , thats a random number but pvp isn't really enjoyed by a big part of the community , if you tell me the opposite then just tell me why anet is doing pve updates only as content ? it's easy to add some pvp new maps , you just create half of a map and copypaste the other half as a mirror , but they don't do it , why? cause pvp doesnt meet the success they wish , not convinced ? tell me about the E-sport part gw 2 devs were so thrilled about and just burryed in a deep hole cause it was to embarrasing looking at the number of viewers for a finale pvp match...

So again , some specs and some skills are thinked for specific modes , why do you see revs with hammers in zerg v zerg wvw and everybody in pve despite the hammer ? same as you for virt. in pvp , not peculiarly designed for !

In pve you can play with a naked char and a level one weapon and still do fine.

Pve is all about numbers so yeah a number change makes or breaks a spec there.

PvP on the other hand needs specs with good tools for a miriad of purposes.

Zerg is closer to pve than it is to PvP.

But again this is a PvP thread.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[zeyeti.8347]

2 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

In pve you can play with a naked char and a level one weapon and still do fine.

Pve is all about numbers so yeah a number change makes or breaks a spec there.

PvP on the other hand needs specs with good tools for a miriad or purposes.

Zerg is closer to pve than it is to PvP.

But again this is a PvP thread.

 

Oke just go naked with a woodplank and try endgame content , want to a burden for your group ? fine .

I can tell the same for pvp i'll just ask some nerd to make me a bot for pvp and i am pretty sure i can end up gold 1 ....

Oh yeah that's right , they are no bots in pvp 😆

Edited October 10, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

What the heck is the first argument even, do your opponent even have control over the way you position your clones?

If yor clones are getting killed  before you choose to shatter them it's simply a l2p issue.

...you can't exactly reposition clones however you want whenever your opponent moves without replacing them or having them move in a highly predictable way though? 🤔

10 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The only good argument pro blades than no one mentioned (I wonder why) is that you can stack'em before combat and don't lose them when you kill the opponent.

Which is now just another thing where the clones aren't superior.

I see you're simply skipping your initial "it's the only espec that does that!!" take entirely now, eh? Hopefully it means you understand your claim about it was -and still is- false.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[zeyeti.8347]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...you can't exactly reposition clones however you want whenever your opponent moves without replacing them or having them move in a highly predictable way? 🤔

Yes you can ! axe 3 😛

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...you can't exactly reposition clones however you want whenever your opponent moves without replacing them or having them move in a highly predictable way though? 🤔

Which is now just another thing where the clones aren't superior.

I see you're simply skipping your initial "it's the only espec that does that!!" take entirely now, eh? Hopefully it means you understand your claim about it was -and still is- false.

At this point I wonder if you even play mesmer at all, apart from Virt. You don't have your clones out for the entirety of your playtime. You have until there's a chance to shatter. If you have troubles positioning your clones that's on you.

This reminded me of the [bookah] mesmer, can't remember his name, who came up with the triangle tactic to blowup all clones at once, that's how much control you can have on clones.

 

Which is the only thing in which blades are better. And even there a dry shatter does as much damage as a 3, 4 blades one.

So no, my claim is still true.

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

At this point I wonder if you even play mesmer at all, apart from Virt. You don't have your clones out for the entirety of your playtime. You have until there's a chance to shatter.

And so the point remains unchanged.

13 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Which is the only thing in which blades are better. And even there a dry shatter does as much damage as a 3, 4 blades one.

It's not the only one, seeing how you already had to dismiss another one before 🤦‍♂️ 

Everything you dodged from the previous posts also remains unchanged, including false reasoning ("the only espec that's the case for") and you claiming clones are so much better anyways, so apparently your complaint here is for the sake of complaining and nothing more anyways.

[Panda.1967]

On 10/9/2023 at 7:51 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Yeah it is. Tell me another elite spec that lost something baseline.

How about I list all elite specs that don’t… it’ll be a much shorter list…

Herald, Renegade, Druid, Berserker, Tempest, Weaver, & Catalyst.

honorable mentions to Deadeye & Chronomancer which both just slightly altered their core mechanic but didn’t really lose anything.

that covers it… so not only are you wrong about the virtuoso being the only EoD spec to trade something out… you have the whole situation backwards… only 1 EoD spec doesn’t trade anything out and that is Catalyst. Also EoD was the first expac to find something for the Revenant to trade out.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Panda.1967

[buzzcarrot.4076]

I haven't read this entire thread, just some of the beginning. I'm a roleplayer and memser junkie so I'd figure I'd give a few cents here: 

 

I never liked the idea of people saying "Clones are for shattering" because they don't have to be. This is prevelent in Scepter, Sword, Axe, and Staff clones actually provide incredible benifit to staying on the battlefield for a long period of time. 

Staff clones: can provide a sweeping perimeter 'surrounding' your opponents/allies providing bouncing condi&boon output. 

Scepter&Axe clones: PACK IN the torment!

Sword clones: constantly rip boons and apply vuln.

(Non Mirage GS & Dagger clones are useless) 

NOT TO MENTION THE BENIFIT OF CLONES ON MIRAGE!! Clones don't have to be shattered!!

 

F3 is a staple for Mesmer because it provides an incredible amount of CC when needed for a quick temp shift that never leaves the toolkit. Every offhand weapon Mesmer has access to provides some level of CC, and not giving them any main hand CC(minus Ambush skills) this provided the Mesmer with even MORE ability to ALWAYS have CC on the class -- since CC is what a Mesmer is supposed to be best at. 

 

While I enjoy the idea of Chrono being compared to a GW1 Me/N, I'd more put it in the realm of Me/Mo or Mesmer/Guardian. The amount of boons and ally support, while today's Necro has that + wells, the Guardian feels more fitting with Symbols and pillowfort vibe. And ofc -- Fast Casting was missing on Mes and all of us GW1 mes were crying until Chrono came out. 

 

BUT VIRT...

Virt is definitely a W/Me combo. Mesmer was missing that {WHAM!} that you get with classes that hit hard. Even great sword still, to me, feels like the laser beam melts the enemy rather than pounds them to dust. Every time a dagger hits its a satisfying {BAM!} that i've been missing! 

The biggest struggle Mes players have with Virt is the lack of Pulled Agro. Mes and Ranger players are similar in that we are used to having always something to pull a little agro from us. Virt puts all the attention on you and, with the block trait line especially, you can survive still pretty well! It's a very aggressive playstyle that allows you to jump in and out of range while still using long ranged shatters/attacks and short ranged shatters/attacks and everything in between!! VIRT IS DEFINITELY your shatter build option. 

 

I just love Mesmer.

[Panda.1967]

1 hour ago, buzzcarrot.4076 said:

I never liked the idea of people saying "Clones are for shattering" because they don't have to be. This is prevelent in Scepter, Sword, Axe, and Staff clones actually provide incredible benifit to staying on the battlefield for a long period of time. 

Staff clones: can provide a sweeping perimeter 'surrounding' your opponents/allies providing bouncing condi&boon output. 

Scepter&Axe clones: PACK IN the torment!

Sword clones: constantly rip boons and apply vuln.

(Non Mirage GS & Dagger clones are useless) 

NOT TO MENTION THE BENIFIT OF CLONES ON MIRAGE!! Clones don't have to be shattered!!

For the longest time I hated the whole thing of “clones exist only to shatter” but sadly the reality is that they unfortunately do… core mesmer gains more out of shattering than they do from keeping clones out all the time… Chronomancer is literally designed to shatter clones every second… Virtuoso is also blatantly a shatter spam spec… Mirage is the only one that actually genuinely benefits from maintaining clones… but unless you’re running Staff, you’re generally better off shattering still… Axe also encourages you to not shatter, but suffers from a bad ambush skill that once again makes it better to shatter spam… they should give Mirage unique shatters that keep your clones around…

Edited October 10, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Alester.7063]

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Specter loses stealing skills but gets shroud.

Bladesworn doesn't really lose anything, dragon trigger is burst and bladefun is the second weapon skill.

Mechanist loses belt skills but gets mech skills.

Virt loses IP but gets? Worse shatters?

You lose IP but get to keep your 'clones' outside of combat.

[buzzcarrot.4076]

6 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

For the longest time I hated the whole thing of “clones exist only to shatter” but sadly the reality is that they unfortunately do… core mesmer gains more out of shattering than they do from keeping clones out all the time… Chronomancer is literally designed to shatter clones every second… Virtuoso is also blatantly a shatter spam spec… Mirage is the only one that actually genuinely benefits from maintaining clones… but unless you’re running Staff, you’re generally better off shattering still… Axe also encourages you to not shatter, but suffers from a bad ambush skill that once again makes it better to shatter spam… they should give Mirage unique shatters that keep your clones around…

Core staff is designed to keep clones until you need to shatter -- that's why it takes longer to generate them with a staff but is easy to get 3 out. I'm not saying it's the meta or the fine-tooth-optitization, but it's a good playstyle and a valid one. 

While yes Chrono benefits from shatter spam especially if traited that way, i'm just saying i will die on the hill that non-virts don't have to spam shatters. Mesmer is a resource management class and the full class utilization is sometimes waiting for the correct time to shatter, or gaining the benifit of a clone being out.

[Panda.1967]

28 minutes ago, buzzcarrot.4076 said:

Core staff is designed to keep clones until you need to shatter -- that's why it takes longer to generate them with a staff but is easy to get 3 out. I'm not saying it's the meta or the fine-tooth-optitization, but it's a good playstyle and a valid one. 

While yes Chrono benefits from shatter spam especially if traited that way, i'm just saying i will die on the hill that non-virts don't have to spam shatters. Mesmer is a resource management class and the full class utilization is sometimes waiting for the correct time to shatter, or gaining the benifit of a clone being out.

I used to be on that hill too… and honestly I want to stay on it… but everything they add to mesmer just keeps adding more and more to the shatterspam playstyle… I was genuinely excited when Mirage was announced and I heard how it was supposed to play… but the reality of the spec didn’t live up to the hype and outside of one specific build it just doesn’t get enough benefit from keeping clones out… and they didn’t do anything special with its clone mechanics to even help facilitate a playstyle that keeps clones out… ambush skills encourage it, but clones still shattering on target death, no unique alternative to shatters that plays into keeping clones up, and Axes of Symmetry only retargeting Axe clones and not all clones… it eventually broke me…

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

How about I list all elite specs that don’t… it’ll be a much shorter list…

Herald, Renegade, Druid, Berserker, Tempest, Weaver, & Catalyst.

honorable mentions to Deadeye & Chronomancer which both just slightly altered their core mechanic but didn’t really lose anything.

that covers it… so not only are you wrong about the virtuoso being the only EoD spec to trade something out… you have the whole situation backwards… only 1 EoD spec doesn’t trade anything out and that is Catalyst. Also EoD was the first expac to find something for the Revenant to trade out.

You can cross Herald and Renegade off that list. Core rev has a special core-only F2 that none of the elite specialisations have.

You possibly should have Soulbeast and Untamed on the list, though. Soulbeast had its tradeoff removed, so it basically acts like a regular ranger if you choose not to merge. Similarly, I don't know of any tradeoff that Untamed makes - it's an awkward spec to make the most out of, but it can pretty much be played like a core ranger if you keep Unleashed on yourself and set the pet family skills on autocast.

[Panda.1967]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You can cross Herald and Renegade off that list. Core rev has a special core-only F2 that none of the elite specialisations have.

You possibly should have Soulbeast and Untamed on the list, though. Soulbeast had its tradeoff removed, so it basically acts like a regular ranger if you choose not to merge. Similarly, I don't know of any tradeoff that Untamed makes - it's an awkward spec to make the most out of, but it can pretty much be played like a core ranger if you keep Unleashed on yourself and set the pet family skills on autocast.

Soulbeast still loses their pet when merged, and untamed trades out their pets automated skill usage. From the wiki: “Your pet will not use their first and second skill automatically, you will have to command them to use it manually through F1 and F3.” I haven’t played the Untamed spec myself yet, so thats all I really have to go off…

Edited October 11, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Roadkizzle.2157]

4 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Soulbeast still loses their pet when merged, and untamed trades out their pets automated skill usage. From the wiki: “Your pet will not use their first and second skill automatically, you will have to command them to use it manually through F1 and F3.” I haven’t played the Untamed spec myself yet, so thats all I really have to go off…

I deleted my Ranger this summer. But I recently heard that while default the Untamed pet doesn't use the skills automatically you can Ctrl-Right Click them to make the pet automatically use them like you can select your own auto attack.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Kitten. From all the threads that I created this one takes the cake.

Apart from Panda there's not a single name in here that have I've even seen posting in mesmer forums before.

If I had to guess:

People that started playing mesmer in EOD.

People that play condi/celestial

People that play chaos/inspi carried builds

Pvers.

So thank you for this delightful pile of kitten where:

I mention EoD and people say PoF and HoT

Blades>clones

Virt tradeoff is blades can't be cleaved even if one clone+IP deals as much damage as 5 blades.

Virt F3 is good.

And so on.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Kitten. From all the threads that I created this one takes the cake.

Apart from Panda there's not a single name in here that have I've even seen posting in mesmer forums before.

If I had to guess:

People that started playing mesmer in EOD.

People that play condi/celestial

People that play chaos/inspi carried builds

Pvers.

So thank you for this delightful pile of kitten where:

I mention EoD and people say PoF and HoT

Blades>clones

Virt tradeoff is blades can't be cleaved even if one clone+IP deals as much damage as 5 blades.

Virt F3 is good.

And so on.

Hahahaha. We've butted heads here before, and you tried the 'no true Scotsmen' arguments then too. I've been playing mesmer since 2004. No, that's not a typo. Things you seem to be missing is that there were mesmer players asking for a variant that wasn't reliant on clones for years before EoD, due to the various problems clones have. Virtuoso isn't the perfect solution to all of those issues, but is at least an attempt to address them. Clones are hardly an integral part of mesmer theming - in GW1 the closest thing to that was EVAS spamming.

Meanwhile, the idea that not being able to shatter with zero daggers is a uniquely crippling tradeoff is ludicrous.

9 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Soulbeast still loses their pet when merged, and untamed trades out their pets automated skill usage. From the wiki: “Your pet will not use their first and second skill automatically, you will have to command them to use it manually through F1 and F3.” I haven’t played the Untamed spec myself yet, so thats all I really have to go off…

Soulbeast only loses the pet if they CHOOSE to merge. It's not something they give up as part of the build, it's just another option that you can take or leave. Using merge has a tradeoff, but simply taking the soulbeast traitline does not (outside of the universal tradeoff that taking an elite specialisation means you only have two core tradeoffs) - you can always choose not to merge. (In some ways, soulbeast actually enhances being a beastmaster, since being able to revive your pet on a short cooldown by merging and unmerging makes the pet virtually impossible to neutralise.)

Untamed, as has been stated multiple times before, has no tradeoff if you set the pet skills on autocast.

It struck me that we can also add daredevil to the list, since I'm pretty sure Swipe was reverted back to Steal.