Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Ohoni.6057]

@"zealex.9410" said:Oops where*. I base mine on the "6 wings per year" that ended up being 1 wing per year.

But again, that's apples and oranges, the new wings have a ton of content to them that the easy mode would not require. At the very least, an easy mode wing should take a fraction of the time of a hard mode, because it entails a fraction of the work. Even if it did require a lot of time fro the 1-2 people working on that specific element, the rest of the team could be working on other projects.

Also you dont answer a question with another question. You answer the question and then ask your own.

You're asking for credentials, it's customary to offer your own first, to indicate that this is a discussion in which credentials are on the line.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:They might do it as a feature of the next expansion, which at least we have a chance of seeing. And as for w10... i don't really expect them to do that much. If they did, it'd still take them 2-3 years minimum, which is way too long. Besides, by that time i'm sure that the raid community would be already in visible decline, and adding more wings would not stop that - quite the opposite (some raiders are already starting to complain about having to do too much bosses, and asking for a cap. Add a few more wings, and burnout will become a really major problem).

Also if they don’t add a LI cap, you’ll have some of legendary components for the actual raids finished in a month. If they do then you’ll have people picking and choosing which wings to do, for the fastest and easiest.More easy encounters that'd let you gather LIs faster without needing to do harder bosses actually

would

be good. LI cap or no LI cap.

@zealex.9410 said:Id assume part of why some ppl dont play raids as much as they used to is that the latest raid took 10+months and its already been 6months since then. Not necessarily because they made the armor.Additionally, it seems way less people play w5 than the earlier wings. Putting SH (which is harder than any boss encounter we've had until that point) as an initial boss of w5 definitely didn't help here. After all, what's the use of a new wing, if you don't do it anyway?

@Sykper.6583 said:

I can only horrifically consider the consequences of trying to implement a separate 'easy-mode' raid instance and not completely blow up the Arenanet workload, having to manage and troubleshoot two separate raid instances at the same time.

So, they shouldn't add new wings since it would only introduce new bugs (more than easy mode versions, because it would be 100% new code), right?(if they thought that way, they'd never introduce anything new)

@zealex.9410 said:That doesnt have to do with the existance of an easy mode or not. If something is gonna kill the raiding scene its 10+ months w8 for a wing.Generally, i doubt anet will do a single major change that in itself will kill the raiding scene. What will kill it will be a slow population decline. And it won't be as simple as due to 10+ month wait times.

At some point there will be less people going in than leaving. Perhaps we've already reached it, or perhaps it's something still in the future, but it will happen eventually.

People coming in is tied to two things: general game health, and accessibility. I won't discuss the first point, and not going to touch the second in the current context (although a lot of people in here probably know my take on it already). The main point that's important here is that (barring some changes to the game systems) accessibility will only come to go down with time and each new wing introduced. The population will become more spread out, there will be less and less people attempting the first bosses, and the requirements are only going to increase. Additionally, veteran raiders will have more wings to do and thus less times to help the new ones. Potential new raiders will simply get left more and more behind.

People leaving is tied to two things: boredom and burnout. The more slowly new wings will be introduced, the more bored with doing the same encounters over and over again people will be. On the other hand, the more wings and bosses, the greater the burnout will be (remember, it's not WoW, and past raid wings are not going to be obsoleted by new ones and by introducing new gear tiers). There are players already complaining that the full clear takes too much time. With more bosses it's only going to be more widespread and visible. LI cap can help here, but that's where we get back to boredom (because all of us know that most players are going to pick the easiest bosses to do then, which means of the potential new bosses they will pick only those markedly easier than those they were doing up to that point).

Ironically, that factor is one that affects hardcore players far more than casuals. Casuals in general won't care if the new content is easy and laidback, as long as it's new. That of course means players raids were originally made for will be leaving due to boredom much faster than those that went in there for other reasons, like shinies. That's not necessarily the same for burnout however. On the one hand casuals probably are affected by burnout more, but on the other they would feel less pressured to do full clears.

Not introducing new wings is going to slowly kill the raiding scene, but introducing too much of them will kill it even faster. That's assuming the accessibility won't be touched, of course. And this is the reason why raiders should be interested in this being worked on. Now, when Anet still cares about the content.

@Feanor.2358 said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually creating it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that could spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:And when do you base that basis of yours? Your previous mmo that you and you company worked on?

When do you base that basis of yours? Your previous mmo that you and you company worked on?

Oops where*. I base mine on the "6 wings per year" that ended up being 1 wing per year.

Also you dont answer a question with another question. You answer the question and then ask your own.You both do realize, that it wasn't either of you that claimed to work on MMOs, but Feanor, right?

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually

creating

it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that

could

spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

You'd be surprised. You'd be very surprised. Maps can probably avoid tweaks, but the bosses and scripting will be affected, taking time of both designers and programmers. You need to change things to fit the new design while making sure you break nothing for the old one. Supporting two versions of the same content is a messy, unpleasant work. "95% of the work being done" is a VAST overstatement. It's nowhere close to this number, even if you don't count the recurring support work that will need to be done.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually

creating

it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that

could

spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

You'd be surprised. You'd be

very

surprised. Maps can probably avoid tweaks, but the bosses and scripting will be affected, taking time of both designers and programmers. You need to change things to fit the new design while making sure you break nothing for the old one. Supporting two versions of the same content is a messy, unpleasant work. "95% of the work being done" is a VAST overstatement. It's nowhere close to this number, even if you don't count the recurring support work that will need to be done.

Yes. Scripting will definitely be affected. Graphics and music on the other hand? For them, no additional work whatsoever would be required. All that work is already done.

Think Legendary Armor - why took Anet so long to make it? Was it because they had problems with collections, with the stat-switching mechanics, or rune-changing ability? No, the reasons why it took them so long were in the graphics department.

Although armor set and raid encounters cannot be compared, i wouldn't be surprised if for raids the same was true - that it'd be the graphical work that would take the majority of the effort, and that it was it that would decide the release cadence.

If i'm right, then it's entirely possible that easy mode would not slow down work on new wings at all, because it would not affect the main reason for why it takes so long.

Of course, i can be wrong. Maybe it's the design and scripting parts that take the most time, and art guys are twiddling their thumbs in the meantime. In this case the impact on raids from making easy mode would be big. I just don't think this is the case.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another. You're arguing on the basis of unrealistically underplaying said amount, which makes your own point moot. It doesn't matter if someone would agree under highly unrealistic conditions, for obvious reasons.

I guess the whole point is moot if Anet is killing this area of game by themselves. Here’s hoping they even make it to wing 7. Maybe by that time they will add an easy mode.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another. You're arguing on the basis of unrealistically underplaying said amount, which makes your own point moot. It doesn't matter if someone would agree under highly unrealistic conditions, for obvious reasons.

I also think it’s hard to have a discussion with you, when you have all the answers and being close minded.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another. You're arguing on the basis of unrealistically underplaying said amount, which makes your own point moot. It doesn't matter if someone would agree under highly unrealistic conditions, for obvious reasons.

I also think it’s hard to have a discussion with you, when you have all the answers and being close minded.

I happen to have years of experience writing code for games. It might seem like being close-minded and there's probably some truth to that as well - experience creates bias. But it also makes it easier for me to see mistakes related to my job.

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually

creating

it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that

could

spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

You'd be surprised. You'd be

very

surprised. Maps can probably avoid tweaks, but the bosses and scripting will be affected, taking time of both designers and programmers. You need to change things to fit the new design while making sure you break nothing for the old one. Supporting two versions of the same content is a messy, unpleasant work. "95% of the work being done" is a VAST overstatement. It's nowhere close to this number, even if you don't count the recurring support work that will need to be done.

In the design concept I've been discussing, The old version should NEVER be touched by development on the new. Every element involved should be 100% split off and unconnected to the original. Boss scripting should be left alone as much as possible, so that shouldn't be an issue either. The ideal case is that the boss would behave identically between versions.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Why not?

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually

creating

it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that

could

spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

You'd be surprised. You'd be

very

surprised. Maps can probably avoid tweaks, but the bosses and scripting will be affected, taking time of both designers and programmers. You need to change things to fit the new design while making sure you break nothing for the old one. Supporting two versions of the same content is a messy, unpleasant work. "95% of the work being done" is a VAST overstatement. It's nowhere close to this number, even if you don't count the recurring support work that will need to be done.

In the design concept I've been discussing, The old version should NEVER be touched by development on the new. Every element involved should be 100% split off and unconnected to the original. Boss scripting should be left alone as much as possible, so that shouldn't be an issue either. The ideal case is that the boss would behave identically between versions.

That game of yours would be amazing cant w8 to play it.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Why not?

Because it defeat the purpose of it being raid specific.

[Ohoni.6057]

@zealex.9410 said:That game of yours would be amazing cant w8 to play it.

Cool!

Because it defeat the purpose of it being raid specific.

1. It would still be raid-specific, it would just be specific to both difficulty levels of raid, and
2. There is no reason why it should be raid specific.

[Sykper.6583]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:

I can only horrifically consider the consequences of trying to implement a separate 'easy-mode' raid instance and not completely blow up the Arenanet workload, having to manage and troubleshoot two separate raid instances at the same time.

So, they shouldn't add new wings since it would only introduce new bugs (more than easy mode versions, because it would be 100% new code), right?(if they thought that way, they'd never introduce anything new)

There's a difference between building new code, versus taking old code and attempting to change it. 100% guarantee that Arenanet breaks the normal instance coding by trying to implement a change in this supposed easy-mode instance.

They are actually better at adding content to the game than fixing the old stuff.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:

I can only horrifically consider the consequences of trying to implement a separate 'easy-mode' raid instance and not completely blow up the Arenanet workload, having to manage and troubleshoot two separate raid instances at the same time.

So, they shouldn't add new wings since it would only introduce new bugs (more than easy mode versions, because it would be 100% new code), right?(if they thought that way, they'd never introduce anything new)

There's a difference between building new code, versus taking old code and attempting to change it. 100% guarantee that Arenanet breaks the normal instance coding by trying to implement a change in this supposed easy-mode instance.

They are actually better at adding content to the game than fixing the old stuff.

What I am proposing, and what I believe should be perfectly reasonable, is that they firewall the two modes. That they copy and paste every element of the existing raid that they intend to alter in ANY way, and then alter only that copy. The Vale Guardian that players fight in Easy Wing 1 might be called "Vale Guardian," but in the system he would be labeled "Vale_GuardianEZ," and be completely distinct from the original. He might have a move that summons a green circle, but it would not be labeled "VG_Green_Circle_Attack," it would be labeled "VG_Green_Circle_AttackEZ," etc.

Any changes they make to the one, should never transfer back to the other.

[Sykper.6583]

We can only speculate how the coding actually is though. Under any normal circumstances what you would be proposing there is sensible. But this is GW2 Code, where we often get the excuse that changes on the level of 'Allowing us to Dye Weapons' are impossible even though we have an system for it for Armor.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sykper.6583 said:We can only speculate how the coding actually is though. Under any normal circumstances what you would be proposing there is sensible. But this is GW2 Code, where we often get the excuse that changes on the level of 'Allowing us to Dye Weapons' are impossible even though we have an system for it for Armor.

Well, I think from the outside, assuming the most complicated clusterkitten of possibilities is counter-productive. If we do that then ANY suggestion about the game should be off limits. Instead, assume that they have some idea what they're doing until given reason to believe otherwise.

And for the record, I totally understand why we can't dye weapons, it's because weapons weren't modeled and textured to use dye channels, which are a different type of texture than flat textures. They could fix this, but at minimum it would require re-texturing every single weapon in the game, and possibly more on top of that to recode how the weapons are displayed. Was this an oversight on their part that they didn't implement this from the start? Yes, same as with the light/medium/heavy armor split. Should they still put in the time to fix it? Yeah, I think so, but I at least understand why they've chosen to prioritize other projects.

[belognom.3685]

@"Grogba.6204" said:

No, you are missing everyones point. You want to clear a raid? Look for a raiding guild/squad/group. Take initiative and just. do. the. content.The challenge is part of the experience, if you cannot grasp that than I am not sure if raids are suited for you in the first place.

Alright, you guys and girl know what? scratch all my previous statements. What happens is i got couple of guys and then we got another 7 person.

After 3 days of checking content here is my conclusion and new statesmen.

Raids DON'T need easy mod. What raids NEED is simple difficulty starts of bosses ( 1 star, 2, star, 3 stars,4 stars, dead wish).

Because there are easy mods and somewhat gear progression in those things hidden under scary "wing #number" names.

Hear me Arena.NET please. Mark those bosses with start/colors/takos something visual and understandable for an average player. That simple twik will stop so many people to be afraid of raids and give it a try

[Ohoni.6057]

@belognom.3685 said:

@"Grogba.6204" said:

No, you are missing everyones point. You want to clear a raid? Look for a raiding guild/squad/group. Take initiative and

just. do. the. content.

The challenge is part of the experience, if you cannot grasp that than I am not sure if raids are suited for you in the first place.

Alright, you guys and girl know what? scratch all my previous statements. What happens is i got couple of guys and then we got another 7 person.

After 3 days of checking content here is my conclusion and new statesmen.

Raids DON'T need easy mod. What raids NEED is simple difficulty starts of bosses ( 1 star, 2, star, 3 stars,4 stars, dead wish).

Because there are easy mods and somewhat gear progression in those things hidden under scary "wing #number" names.

Hear me Arena.NET please. Mark those bosses with start/colors/takos something visual and understandable for an average player. That simple twik will stop so many people to be afraid of raids and give it a try

The problem being, even if some people can do some of the encounters, they still are no closer to being able to clear the remaining encounters. It's not about finding the few encounters that are easier than others, it's about being able to beat ALL of them at a more casual skill level.

[Veryl.1923]

I farmed my ascended sword using magnetite shards during dieing in raids, But heck, I only got 9 Legendary Insights.That doesn't make me a bad magi healer... But a challenged one! :sweat_smile:That's why I went Harrier and challenge myself even moar stackin might! ROAR

I wouldn't need a hardmode, Raids is tough enough alreadyezpz mode would be like farming in GW1 running old nerfed meta builds and ruining the guildwars two economy with bad loot...And NOONE wants gw1 because it is GW2 nao.

...I do agree that raid sellers should quit and people should make more Training squads

[belognom.3685]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

Hear me Arena.NET please. Mark those bosses with start/colors/takos something visual and understandable for an average player. That simple twik will stop so many people to be afraid of raids and give it a try

The problem being, even if

some

people can do

some

of the encounters, they still are no closer to being able to clear the remaining encounters. It's not about finding the few encounters that are easier than others, it's about being able to beat ALL of them at a more casual skill level.

One step at the time, i'm no rush. I don't see any problem here.

I'm playing to have fun not to compensate.All I'm saying is give people a visual sign of difficulty .

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually

creating

it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that

could

spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

You'd be surprised. You'd be

very

surprised. Maps can probably avoid tweaks, but the bosses and scripting will be affected, taking time of both designers and programmers. You need to change things to fit the new design while making sure you break nothing for the old one. Supporting two versions of the same content is a messy, unpleasant work. "95% of the work being done" is a VAST overstatement. It's nowhere close to this number, even if you don't count the recurring support work that will need to be done.

In the design concept I've been discussing, The old version should NEVER be touched by development on the new. Every element involved should be 100% split off and unconnected to the original. Boss scripting should be left alone as much as possible, so that shouldn't be an issue either. The ideal case is that the boss would behave identically between versions.

Please, don't. The boss can't be left alone, it's where the changes will happen. You'll need different versions of the attacks and fight mechanics, which are most likely all part of the boss fight implementation.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually

creating

it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that

could

spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

You'd be surprised. You'd be

very

surprised. Maps can probably avoid tweaks, but the bosses and scripting will be affected, taking time of both designers and programmers. You need to change things to fit the new design while making sure you break nothing for the old one. Supporting two versions of the same content is a messy, unpleasant work. "95% of the work being done" is a VAST overstatement. It's nowhere close to this number, even if you don't count the recurring support work that will need to be done.

In the design concept I've been discussing, The old version should NEVER be touched by development on the new. Every element involved should be 100% split off and unconnected to the original. Boss scripting should be left alone as much as possible, so that shouldn't be an issue either. The ideal case is that the boss would behave identically between versions.

Please, don't. The boss can't be left alone, it's where the changes will happen. You'll need different versions of the attacks and fight mechanics, which are most likely all part of the boss fight implementation.

Again, SPLIT. There would be a copy of the boss, a version that is identical, and yet totally distinct from the original. You know the Vale Guardian in Bloodstone Fen? Like that guy. They would copy out the original, modify the copy, but the original would be left without a single alteration. Every feature they'd have to tweak, they would split off a distinct copy of that element.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another.True, but there are other factors involved. For example, i don't think raid design takes as much time as actually

creating

it. Thus the people those work would be required the most for the easy mode would possibly be the people that

could

spare the most time on it. The people creating maps, bosses, scripting the encounters for the new wing? 95% of that work for the easy mode would be already done, so they wouldn't be inconvenienced that hard.

You'd be surprised. You'd be

very

surprised. Maps can probably avoid tweaks, but the bosses and scripting will be affected, taking time of both designers and programmers. You need to change things to fit the new design while making sure you break nothing for the old one. Supporting two versions of the same content is a messy, unpleasant work. "95% of the work being done" is a VAST overstatement. It's nowhere close to this number, even if you don't count the recurring support work that will need to be done.

In the design concept I've been discussing, The old version should NEVER be touched by development on the new. Every element involved should be 100% split off and unconnected to the original. Boss scripting should be left alone as much as possible, so that shouldn't be an issue either. The ideal case is that the boss would behave identically between versions.

Please, don't. The boss can't be left alone, it's where the changes will happen. You'll need different versions of the attacks and fight mechanics, which are most likely all part of the boss fight implementation.

Again, SPLIT. There would be a

copy

of the boss, a version that is identical, and yet totally distinct from the original. You know the Vale Guardian in Bloodstone Fen? Like that guy. They would copy out the original, modify the copy, but the original would be left without a single alteration. Every feature they'd have to tweak, they would split off a distinct copy of that element.

It's not that it isn't doable, it's that it's a lot more work than you imagine it to be. The split you're talking about also means increased work on maintaining that code. For instance, every bugfix in one instance will have to also be applied to the other. Sometimes this will get forgotten. Sometimes it will not be trivial, because the fix will affect code that actually differs. You're just waving your hands saying "split" like it solves everything magically.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:It's not that it isn't doable, it's that it's a lot more work than you imagine it to be. The split you're talking about also means increased work on maintaining that code. For instance, every bugfix in one instance will have to also be applied to the other.

Sure, but hopefully by now the raids are mostly stable so they won't need that much attention, and copy-pasting a solution from one to the other when it is needed it a lot less hassle than trying to maintain the two as separate instances of a single boss that might, as you point out, lead to unintended changes to the original.

Sometimes this will get forgotten. Sometimes it will not be trivial, because the fix will affect code that actually differs. You're just waving your hands saying "split" like it solves everything magically.

Again though, bugs caused to the easy mode are less critical than those that happen to the harder mode, so as long as they fix things in the harder one, they'll be fine. And copy-pasting the solution to the easier one shouldn't take them long, they typically release 3-5 patch with any major Update anyway, and those often seem to be much larger and more complicated issues than anything that could occur here.

There's no such thing as "perfect," including not doing anything at all, and this is the best possible solution, so far as I can see. The chance for something to go wrong is not so high as to make the whole idea worse than doing nothing.