Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. this should not be Envoy gear.

when you look at this without the selfish hat on, Everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits.

I think even those who think an easy mode is not necessary (like me) could be ok with said easy mode, if it doesn't give the same rewards the normal mode gives. It all comes down to rewards, those should be given according to the difficulty level. If it's the case, in my opinion, even if we don't like the idea of an easy mode, we can go a little "whatever" at it. I mean, we would probably still complain a little, or be opposed to it, because we genuinely think an easy mode is a bad idea -but it would be a less fierce opposition.

I'd even be OK with that. Sure, it would slow down new raid releases somewhat, but after all it

would

potentially benefit a lot of players. So you know... I'm not

that

selfish. Problem is, he's not going to convince Ohoni.

So basically, your opposition is entirely about the shinies.

No.

Your position is entirely about the shinies. Which we already knew.

My opposition is entirely about fairness.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"nia.4725" said:

sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.

Both WvW and SPvP give out 2 sets of legendary armor. One more open (Ardent Glorious, Triumphant), one more restricted (Glorious, Mistforged Triumphant).

Though i do agree, that a legendary armor for PvE that is not meant to be obtained by doing endgame instanced content (like, for example, the Hellfire/radiant idea mentioned elsewhere) should come first.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:So basically, your opposition is entirely about the shinies.

No.

Your

position is entirely about the shinies. Which we already knew.

My opposition is entirely about fairness.

My position is about both wanting to play the content in a lower stress variation, and wanting the shinies.

You want to deny the shineies at all cost, and seemingly any other consideration comes a distant second to "keeping the shinies out of the hands of plebes".

Fairness does not play a role in this, because it's fair either way. Current raiders were never entitled to there never being any alternate way of earning the skins. It is in no way "unfair" to them for an alternative to be provided, no matter how often you assert some vague "unfairness" to it.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:So basically, your opposition is entirely about the shinies.

No.

Your

position is entirely about the shinies. Which we already knew.

My opposition is entirely about fairness.

My

position is about

both

wanting to play the content in a lower stress variation,

and

wanting the shinies.

You

want to deny the shineies at all cost, and seemingly any other consideration comes a distant second to "keeping the shinies out of the hands of plebes".

Fairness

does not play a role in this, because it's fair either way. Current raiders were

never

entitled to there

never

being any alternate way of earning the skins. It is in no way "unfair" to them for an alternative to be provided, no matter how often you assert some vague "unfairness" to it.

Au contraire.

It is definitely not fair either way. It can't possibly be fair to nullify all the effort others have made just so that you can get the same shinies. That's not fairness, that's the epitome of egoism.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:It can't possibly be fair to nullify all the effort others have made just so that you can get the same shinies.

And so that won't happen. Their efforts will not be nullified, they will still have their armor, which was the only thing even hinted at as a reward for their efforts. They were never promised, nor should they have been, that there would never be other ways to earn it.

Again, just because one person paid $100 for something, and six months later someone else paid $50 for that same thing, it does not mean that the first person was in any way "treated unfairly." There is never any expectation that the future will not grow and expand.

The idea that "I did this way, therefore nobody else can have my shinies unless they also do it this way" is not fairness, that's the epitome of egoism.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It can't possibly be fair to nullify all the effort others have made just so that you can get the same shinies.

And so that won't happen. Their efforts will not be nullified, they will still have

their

armor, which was the only thing even hinted at as a reward for their efforts. They were never promised, nor should they have been, that there would never be

other

ways to earn it.

That's implied because that's how games work.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:There's a demographic not represented here. It includes every player (open PvE, FotM, WvW, sPvP) who has not touched raids and would not touch raids no matter if an easier difficulty were added. With a few exceptions, those players are unlikely to participate in a raid discussion and are thus unlikely to voice an objection to any potential impact on their content of choice. As one of those players, if that means I'm putting on a selfish hat, so be it.

Careful here. When mentioned earlier about it, they told me that this easy mode Raid will be for the "majority" of the players, even those that will never touch other instanced content. Apparently these easy mode Raids will be so easy, even compared to other instanced content, that will be doable by everyone.

Despite having no interest in raids, I was happy to see that content type introduced. Those who wanted them certainly waited long enough for harder, instanced content. The way ANet implemented raids provides those players with their content choice, while leaving GW2 endgame substantially as it was. Raids filled the hole left in ANet's pre-launch design intent that explorable dungeons would be a raid-equivalent. Were ANet to funnel more resources into raids, they'd be shifting GW2 toward a more raid-centric game. That, I don't want to see.

It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.Nah, i don't want that. Which is why i never wanted raids in GW2 in the first place. But if they have to be in the game, i'd rather Anet brought in the good alongside the bad, instead of just implementing the bad.Yes, obviously removing raids completely (or at least nefing them) would be a better solution.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It can't possibly be fair to nullify all the effort others have made just so that you can get the same shinies.

And so that won't happen. Their efforts will not be nullified, they will still have

their

armor, which was the only thing even hinted at as a reward for their efforts. They were never promised, nor should they have been, that there would never be

other

ways to earn it.

That's implied because that's how games work.

It really isn't. When people made two copies of various Legendaries, they did so because that was once the only way to have one in each hand. When they added wardrobes, that changed. Was that "unfair" to those players, or did it benefit the players overall because now they could be more flexible in how they skinned their characters?

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.

Nope. The changes requested don't require this game becoming any more "raid-centric" than it already is. It just adds some content options to the players, which they can enjoy or not. Those that choose to avoid the easy mode raids should notice no considerable difference in their game experience.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Yes, obviously removing raids completely (or at least nefing them) would be a better solution.

Agreed, but I'm willing to compromise by allowing them to remain, so long as there is also an alternative version available.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.Nah, i don't want that. Which is why i never wanted raids in GW2 in the first place. But if they

have

to be in the game, i'd rather Anet brought in the good alongside the bad, instead of just implementing the bad.Yes, obviously removing raids completely (or at least nefing them)

would

be a better solution.

You should re-read this part:

The way ANet implemented raids provides those players with their content choice, while leaving GW2 endgame substantially as it was. Raids filled the hole left in ANet's pre-launch design intent that explorable dungeons would be a raid-equivalent. Were ANet to funnel more resources into raids, they'd be shifting GW2 toward a more raid-centric game. That, I don't want to see.

You never wanted Raids in the game, but Arenanet wanted something like Raids since before release. It was advertised to have it, and people bought it expecting something like Raids. Even the developers figured that it wasn't going to work, so years later, after trying multiple times to bring "raid-level" content in the Open World (Scarlet's Hologram, Marionette, Triple Trouble and so on), they decided to add an instanced version instead. That's what the Raids fill, a hole that has been there since release, and was only filled with Heart of Thorns. Making more modes for this is essentially the same as making this a Raid centric game.

The better question that the poll should've been asking in the first place, is "Should Guild Wars 2 become a Raid-centric game?" That would be an interesting question to answer, because the way it was worded it was all about getting the shinnies "bring us an easy mode so I can get the shinnies without trying!" without ever considering the consequences of such a change (making it a Raid-centric game)

[Ohoni.6057]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Making more modes for this is essentially the same as making this a Raid centric game.

Nope. "Raid centric" means that the entire game revolves around the raids. It would mean that primary (instead of just secondary) story content would take place in the raids, and all major updates would be based around the raid content. I don't want that, and I don't see it as something that would happen, with or without easy mode raids. It is fair to point out, however, that PvE players cannot acquire the highest tier of armor in the game without participating in raids, so by that measure, it's already raid-centric. Adding easy mode would not make that any worse than it already is.

The better question that the poll should've been asking in the first place, is "Should Guild Wars 2 become a Raid-centric game?"

That's an entirely different question, with an entirely different set of answers, most of which would be "no."

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It can't possibly be fair to nullify all the effort others have made just so that you can get the same shinies.

And so that won't happen. Their efforts will not be nullified, they will still have

their

armor, which was the only thing even hinted at as a reward for their efforts. They were never promised, nor should they have been, that there would never be

other

ways to earn it.

That's implied because that's how games work.

It really isn't. When people made two copies of various Legendaries, they did so because that was once the only way to have one in each hand. When they added wardrobes, that changed. Was that "unfair" to those players, or did it benefit the players overall because now they could be more flexible in how they skinned their characters?

It was unfair to a degree, hence they added the "Twice-Told Legend" title to compensate for it. Minor compensation for minor injustice, as crafting a legendary weapon is mostly a resource sink. This isn't even remotely comparable to the effort required to get the Envoy. Hence instead of minor injustice we'd have a blatant unfairness, which would require a much greater compensation. Tell you what - come up with something good enough and I'll stop my opposition.

[tim.4596]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Do you mean basically like a tutorial for the bosses so that people would be more capable of just jumping into the existing raid? I mean, that isn't a bad idea in and of itself, but 1. it would probably actually be harder than an easy mode, since it would need to reframe the encounter as a teaching aid, with all sorts of pauses and pop-ups or something, 2. it might make some players able to get into raiding easier, but it wouldn't fulfill the point of just making the raid itself a more casual experience, most of the practical barriers to raiding would still apply.The current HoT Raids (W1 to W4) are fairly simple and can be 8man easily with a descent group. I don't thing those ones would need an easy mode. Especially since PoF was released, recent patch makes raiding even more easy. Chrono has been made easier to play and the buff Alacrity is now much easier to upkeep. Previously you could really see the difference between a descent and really good chrono just by looking at how much alacrity he was giving you. Druid now have spirits for 10 people, which let you either run 1 more DPS or another healer (healing herald, healing tempest or healing firebrand), whose healing capabilities is far greater than the one of Druid.

So if new players, take time to gear accordingly to the raid + practice their rotation–and really they should, because this is high end game content–your group will manage the raid fairly easily. Mechanics are quite simple and aren't 'too much' class oriented, with the exception of tank, and druid on some encounters. So players can easily swap class too.

I've been raiding for a long time already, and have been doing those bosses over and over, so maybe my judgement is a bit affected, but I'm pretty confident that even a progression group with all players starting from 0 would get through the raid content fairly easily.There are a lot of resources available online, created by the community about raids. Dulfy.net has amazing boss guides. Quantify qT and Snow Crows SC were at some point uploading YouTube videos of their daily clear, or speed clear (I'm not still sure if they do). Although the class played in those video will most likely be outdated, the boss mechanics are still the same. Snow Crows, in their "Raids" section has detailed guide of each class and the builds that they should play in raid, and it is up to date. Link here

Furthermore, multiple GW2 streamers, stream Raids on a daily basis on Twitch and are generally happy to answer any question about raid. New player can also join raiding Guild. There are a lot of raiding guilds out there, which are still running training run.

I think the main issue as easyRoca stated in his 16hours twitch stream 2-3 days ago, in which he reviewed most GW2 classes, is that the 'LFG' is really not the right place to start raiding. The first step towards raiding should be to join a raiding Guild.

I do however understand, where you are coming from with the idea of having an easyMode for existing Raids, but I don't think it is necessary, as GW2 has a really helpful community when it comes to such thing.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:It was unfair to a degree, hence they added the "Twice-Told Legend" title to compensate for it.

And I fully expect that they would make some sort of gesture towards raiders when they changed things. That is not, however, any sort of argument against changing things. As a wise man once said. . .

This isn't even remotely comparable to the effort required to get the Envoy.

That's subjective. To some people, it's a lot of work, to others, it's just what they already enjoy doing. Keep in mind that the only thing changing here would be the raiding portions themselves, so other requirements, like Provisioner's tokens, people would still need to work just as hard to procure. Unless you really hate raiding, you shouldn't have anything to complain about, since all you "had to do" would be to do content you likely would have wanted to be doing anyway, and in return you'd have had the armor for months, if not years longer than any easy-mode player would, and with a fraction of the time put into earning it. A fair tradeoff by any stretch, even without a bonus gift from ANet.

Hence instead of minor injustice we'd have a blatant unfairness, which would require a much greater compensation.

Again, entirely subjective. "My apples are worth more than your oranges, so I deserve better compensation!"

Tell you what - come up with something good enough and I'll stop my opposition.

I don't think it would be my place to figure out the best "make right" for raiders. I would ask you to come up with one but I can't trust that you'd make a good-fair suggestion and it would likely end up something well beyond what you would settle for. I think it's fair to say that whatever it was, plenty of raiders would be unhappy with it, but that doesn't mean that they were ever entitled to more than what they get.

[Ohoni.6057]

@tim.4596 said:The current HoT Raids (W1 to W4) are fairly simple and can be 8man easily with a descent group. I don't thing those ones would need an easy mode. Especially since PoF was released, recent patch makes raiding even more easy. Chrono has been made easier to play and the buff Alacrity is now much easier to upkeep. Previously you could really see the difference between a descent and really good chrono just by looking at how much alacrity he was giving you. Druid now have spirits for 10 people, which let you either run 1 more DPS or another healer (healing herald, healing tempest or healing firebrand), whose healing capabilities is far greater than the one of Druid.

So if new players, take time to gear accordingly to the raid + practice their rotation–and really they should, because this is high end game content–your group will manage the raid fairly easily. Mechanics are quite simple and aren't 'too much' class oriented, with the exception of tank, and druid on some encounters. So players can easily swap class too.

This may all be true, and yet the fact remains that raids are not as casual pick-up as many players would want them to be. The existing raids can be left intact for those that enjoy that sort of thing, but there is still value in having an alternate experience for more casual players.

I'm well aware that I could train myself up to be capable in the current raids, my point is that I do not want this outcome. I want the content itself to become more casual and pick-up friendly.

[tim.4596]

@Ohoni.6057 said:This may all be true, and yet the fact remains that raids are not as casual pick-up as many players would want them to be. The existing raids can be left intact for those that enjoy that sort of thing, but there is still value in having an alternate experience for more casual players.

I'm well aware that I could train myself up to be capable in the current raids, my point is that I do not want this outcome. I want the content itself to become more casual and pick-up friendly.

I don't understand, what do you mean?-Are you saying that you do not wish to put up the investment of joining a raiding Guild and having to be online 1 or 2 evening per week and therefore would want an easyMode for raids.-Or are you saying that you should be able to do raids whenever you have time, and not be bound to have obligatory connection time to do them?-Or is it something else?

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:This isn't even remotely comparable to the effort required to get the Envoy.

That's subjective.

Everything involving effort is subjective, in a sense. It doesn't mean there are no valid comparisons. As someone who has done both, on multiple occasions (3 Envoy sets and 10+ legendary weapons), I have full confidence to make that claim and stand by it.

@Ohoni.6057 said:I don't think it would be my place to figure out the best "make right" for raiders. I would ask you to come up with one but I can't trust that you'd make a good-fair suggestion and it would likely end up something well beyond what you would settle for. I think it's fair to say that whatever it was, plenty of raiders would be unhappy with it, but that doesn't mean that they were ever entitled to more than what they get.

Fair enough, you're not in a position to judge what would be a fair compensation. But you have the meanings confused in your last sentence. You're the one acting entitled to something. Raiders? We earned our stuff.

[Ohoni.6057]

@tim.4596 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:This may all be true, and yet the fact remains that raids are not as casual pick-up as many players would want them to be. The existing raids can be left intact for those that enjoy that sort of thing, but there is still value in having an alternate experience for more casual players.

I'm well aware that I could train myself up to be capable in the current raids, my point is that I

do not want this outcome.

I want the content

itself

to become more casual and pick-up friendly.

I don't understand, what do you mean?-Are you saying that you do not wish to put up the investment of joining a raiding Guild and having to be online 1 or 2 evening per week and therefore would want an easyMode for raids.-Or are you saying that you should be able to do raids whenever you have time, and not be bound to have obligatory connection time to do them?-Or is it something else?

Yes, yes, and yes. ;)

I want easy mode raids that are as casual to hook into as dungeons were back during their prime. Just pop up an LFG, find a group that's running the encounter you want, and stand a very solid change of clearing the encounter as simple as that. No training, no "static group," watching tutorials and the such might be helpful, but wouldn't be strictly necessary, even a handful of players knowing what they're doing should be able to tip the outcome into the "win" column.

@"Feanor.2358" said:Everything involving effort is subjective, in a sense. It doesn't mean there are no valid comparisons. As someone who has done both, on multiple occasions (3 Envoy sets and 10+ legendary weapons), I have full confidence to make that claim and stand by it.

But perhaps doing the Legendary weapons so often has jaded you to them. I, for one, and a bit wary of having to do World Completion and the WvW requirements all over again to make more than I already have (but I like that the option is available). That said, even if we do accept the premise that Envoy armor is a step above Legendary weapons, that just means that they need to put a little more effort into the "make-right gift," rather than that it would be impossible to balance out.

Fair enough, you're not in a position to judge what would be a fair compensation. But you have the meanings confused in your last sentence. You're the one acting entitled to something. Raiders? We earned our stuff.

No.

Again, you were gifted stuff. You chose to raid, and the developers chose to attach Envoy armor to raids. They didn't need to do that.

To "earn" something, you need to provide a benefit. People working in the real world earn their salaries by providing value to their employers. A store employee makes $10 an hour by providing effort that earns the store more than $10 per hour. A raider is not providing additional value to the game by raiding, they are owed nothing and have earned nothing. What value they add to the game is simply from playing it at all, and in that they are providing no more value than someone farming moas in Queensdale, and therefore are owed nothing more, and have earned nothing more.

Raiders are not entitled to having Envoy armor at all, much less that they should have exclusive rights to it, or have any say in who else is "allowed" to have it. Raiders have been gifted Legendary armor, and they should be grateful for that, rather than trying to claim some sort of ownership over the entire concept.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Everything involving effort is subjective, in a sense. It doesn't mean there are no valid comparisons. As someone who has done both, on multiple occasions (3 Envoy sets and 10+ legendary weapons), I have full confidence to make that claim and stand by it.

But perhaps doing the Legendary weapons so often has jaded you to them. I, for one, and a bit wary of having to do World Completion and the WvW requirements all over again to make more than I already have (but I like that the option is available). That said, even if we do accept the premise that Envoy armor is a step above Legendary weapons, that just means that they need to put a little more effort into the "make-right gift," rather than that it would be

impossible

to balance out.

And perhaps it didn't and I'm just right. And I'm not saying that it would be impossible to balance out. However any fair compensation will actually be broken.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Fair enough, you're not in a position to judge what would be a fair compensation. But you have the meanings confused in your last sentence. You're the one acting entitled to something. Raiders? We earned our stuff.

No.

Again, you were

gifted

stuff. You chose to raid, and the developers chose to attach Envoy armor to raids. They didn't need to do that.

And you didn't need to choose not to raid. Get over yourself.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:However any fair compensation will actually be broken.

That sentence is an oxymoron.

And you didn't need to choose not to raid. Get over yourself.

But again I repeat, because you don't seem to have internalized this, but raider have no more "earned" Legendary armor for raiding than anyone else has "earned" it by not raiding. They were gifted the armor as a side effect of playing a portion of the game that they enjoy, but they were never entitled to have that armor just because they chose to raid. Nobody is entitled to it.

Being gifted that armor seems to make them happy, and that's nice, but gifting it to other people would also make them happy, and that would be nice too. The developers do not owe raiders anything whatsoever in compensation for this, because raiders have no say in who does and does not get Envoy armor, but they will likely give them an additional gift anyway just because it's a good idea to try and keep players happy as best you can. At the end of the day though, keeping raiders happy about their potential decision to make Envoy armor available to more players is not a necessary part of the process. If they can't make raiders happy about the situation, then that's just too bad. I would like raiders to be happy, but ultimately, keeping raiders happy is less important than making Envoy armor more available to everyone else.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:But again I repeat, because you don't seem to have internalized this, but raider have no more "earned" Legendary armor for raiding than anyone else has "earned" it by not raiding. They were gifted the armor as a side effect of playing a portion of the game that they enjoy, but they were never entitled to have that armor just because they chose to raid. Nobody is entitled to it.

And you are again wrong. They had to put some effort in order to get "gifted" something. How do we call this? Oh, right, "earning". An effort you alone do not want to make. You alone want to be gifted the armor. Won't happen.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:And you are again wrong. They had to put some effort in order to get "gifted" something.

They put in effort, that does not mean that they earned anything. Again, earning requires that they add value, that their effort accomplished something. Applying effort to an entertainment product is not "earning" anything.

You alone want to be gifted the armor.

As I've said, I intend to put in just as much effort in acquiring the armor as any of you have, just in an easy mode rather than in the normal mode. And again, nothing entitles you to be able to determine that the effort you do is somehow "more worthy" than the effort I do. If the developers say that it is a valid amount, then they are right, because they decide who to gift with what.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:And you are again wrong. They had to put some effort in order to get "gifted" something.

They put in effort, that does not mean that they

earned

anything. Again, earning requires that they add value, that their effort

accomplished

something. Applying effort to an entertainment product is not "earning"

anything.

You alone want to be gifted the armor.

As I've said, I intend to put in just as much effort in acquiring the armor as any of you have, just in an easy mode rather than in the normal mode. And again, nothing entitles you to be able to determine that the effort you do is somehow "more worthy" than the effort I do. If the developers say that it is a valid amount, then they are right, because they decide who to gift with what.

You both have entered a loop where you basically go like this:

1: YES!2: NO!1: AGAIN, YES!2: AGAIN, NO!

Which starts to be a little bit funny. No one is going to change their opinion on this.

[Sykper.6583]

@Ohoni.6057 said:As I've said, I intend to put in just as much effort in acquiring the armor as any of you have, just in an easy mode rather than in the normal mode.

Insisting on the devs to create an easy-mode, is not putting effort into an easy mode or any mode for that matter. You aren't even playing the game to earn anything, you are just here, making arguments and not actually playing the game.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:As I've said, I intend to put in just as much effort in acquiring the armor as any of you have, just in an easy mode rather than in the normal mode.

Insisting on the devs to create an easy-mode, is not putting effort into an easy mode or any mode for that matter.

Well of course not, but then once that mode has been added to the game, of course I would need to actually participate in that mode to gain the rewards. It's not like I just expect to walk in on the first day and have the envoy armor drop into my inventory. As we've discussed previously, I fully expect that earning Envoy armor via easy mode will take 2-3 times as long as earning it through the existing method, and likely many more repetitions of content. It will be work, it will just be work in an alternate mode.

You aren't even playing the game to earn anything, you are just here, making arguments and not actually playing the game.

Well yes, because they haven't put the method in yet, so there would be no way for me to start prog4ressing through it. It's like people complaining about how raids didn't exist yet in 2013, rather than just being in the game and raiding.