Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Rhiannon.1726" said:When you make Cairn, MO or Escort easier, you'll get raids that are easier and more boring than the dungeon story modes. The dungeon story modes took at least several minutes and had some story, Cairn an MO would be over in less than 5 min without any story happening during the "fight".

This would be for those struggling with Cairn and MO, not for those who are able to do it in normal mode.

Honestly, if you're struggling with Cairn and MO then either make some effort and learn to play the game, or just don't bother with raids - they aren't intended for you. No offense meant at all. I mean to say, this content is designed to be the most challenging in the game.

Which is fair, but what if you wanted Legendary Armor. See I think there’s some issues here. Give people the challenge, sure, but now your baiting people who want to obtain armor set into playing something they didn't want to play or telling them that this isn’t meant for you. See this Legendary Armor envoy set... it is not meant for you.

Same could be said for legendary weapons and wvw.

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:I used to play Everquest back in 1999 and I still remember doing Raids in the Plane of Fear, where half of the classes had their best armor sets as random drops on certain mobs. In that game, every mob was a raid boss. This still seems to be the same thinking that GW2 wants to achieve as of right now with Legendary Armor. I thought they want to revolutionize MMOs and not stick to the same old game.

Perhaps if they offered another way to obtain the envoy set or just obtain the skin for it.

A diff legendary armor in a diff part of pve(fractals preferably)? Sure, the same skin or just the skin Kitten no.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:same could be said about the pvp/wvw skins could it not?

Those need to be fixed too, one problem does nothing to excuse another.

I'm all for it, but we'd 1st have to convince anet that that is a problem. As it stands they deem it something necessary to get people to try other game modes, and you can't exactly say it isn't working.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Rhiannon.1726" said:When you make Cairn, MO or Escort easier, you'll get raids that are easier and more boring than the dungeon story modes. The dungeon story modes took at least several minutes and had some story, Cairn an MO would be over in less than 5 min without any story happening during the "fight".

This would be for those struggling with Cairn and MO, not for those who are able to do it in normal mode.

Honestly, if you're struggling with Cairn and MO then either make some effort and learn to play the game, or just don't bother with raids - they aren't intended for you. No offense meant at all. I mean to say, this content is designed to be the most challenging in the game.

Which is fair, but what if you wanted Legendary Armor. See I think there’s some issues here. Give people the challenge, sure, but now your baiting people who want to obtain armor set into playing something they didn't want to play or telling them that this isn’t meant for you. See this Legendary Armor envoy set... it is not meant for you.

Same could be said for legendary weapons and wvw.

Less extreme, if you had to coordinate with 10 other people to obtain it, then I would agree...

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I used to play Everquest back in 1999 and I still remember doing Raids in the Plane of Fear, where half of the classes had their best armor sets as random drops on certain mobs. In that game, every mob was a raid boss. This still seems to be the same thinking that GW2 wants to achieve as of right now with Legendary Armor. I thought they want to revolutionize MMOs and not stick to the same old game.

Perhaps if they offered another way to obtain the envoy set or just obtain the skin for it.

A diff legendary armor in a diff part of pve(fractals preferably)? Sure, the same skin or just the skin Kitten no.

Why is that?

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I used to play Everquest back in 1999 and I still remember doing Raids in the Plane of Fear, where half of the classes had their best armor sets as random drops on certain mobs. In that game, every mob was a raid boss. This still seems to be the same thinking that GW2 wants to achieve as of right now with Legendary Armor. I thought they want to revolutionize MMOs and not stick to the same old game.

Perhaps if they offered another way to obtain the envoy set or just obtain the skin for it.

A diff legendary armor in a diff part of pve(fractals preferably)? Sure, the same skin or just the skin Kitten no.

Why is that?

Because thats the raid set. A set directly tied to this type of content. Any diff content should have diff diff skin.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Rhiannon.1726" said:When you make Cairn, MO or Escort easier, you'll get raids that are easier and more boring than the dungeon story modes. The dungeon story modes took at least several minutes and had some story, Cairn an MO would be over in less than 5 min without any story happening during the "fight".

This would be for those struggling with Cairn and MO, not for those who are able to do it in normal mode.

Honestly, if you're struggling with Cairn and MO then either make some effort and learn to play the game, or just don't bother with raids - they aren't intended for you. No offense meant at all. I mean to say, this content is designed to be the most challenging in the game. Lowering its difficulty to enable players who never were its target audience serves no purpose. It's like wanting to be offered a harness and a bungee rope for getting out of bed. It's missing the whole point, the whole purpose. Missing it by a mile.

Sure but isn’t this a casual MMO? Wasn’t that the design? Wasn’t that the purpose?

Casual doesnt necessarily mean easy.

This is true, but what you are saying doesn’t represent a casual player. A casual player doesn’t want to play for 8 hours(that’s with lots of downtime during this time) and have nothing to show for it. Anet says that they want their players to see progress.

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Rhiannon.1726" said:When you make Cairn, MO or Escort easier, you'll get raids that are easier and more boring than the dungeon story modes. The dungeon story modes took at least several minutes and had some story, Cairn an MO would be over in less than 5 min without any story happening during the "fight".

This would be for those struggling with Cairn and MO, not for those who are able to do it in normal mode.

Honestly, if you're struggling with Cairn and MO then either make some effort and learn to play the game, or just don't bother with raids - they aren't intended for you. No offense meant at all. I mean to say, this content is designed to be the most challenging in the game.

Which is fair, but what if you wanted Legendary Armor. See I think there’s some issues here. Give people the challenge, sure, but now your baiting people who want to obtain armor set into playing something they didn't want to play or telling them that this isn’t meant for you. See this Legendary Armor envoy set... it is not meant for you.

Same could be said for legendary weapons and wvw.

Less extreme, if you had to coordinate with 10 other people to obtain it, then I would agree...

Thats not about the challenge or the coordination is about ppl doint not having to do what they dont want.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

But your ok with people paying to get Legendary Armor? Where is the effort there? Me whipping out my credit card?

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort.

[Tyson.5160]

I’m just surprised that no one is up in arms about raid selling.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

Afking will get you reported.

[Ohoni.6057]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I used to play Everquest back in 1999 and I still remember doing Raids in the Plane of Fear, where half of the classes had their best armor sets as random drops on certain mobs. In that game, every mob was a raid boss. This still seems to be the same thinking that GW2 wants to achieve as of right now with Legendary Armor. I thought they want to revolutionize MMOs and not stick to the same old game.

Perhaps if they offered another way to obtain the envoy set or just obtain the skin for it.

A diff legendary armor in a diff part of pve(fractals preferably)? Sure, the same skin or just the skin Kitten no.

Why not? Why do you feel entitled to exclusive access to the skin?

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:same could be said about the pvp/wvw skins could it not?

Those need to be fixed too, one problem does nothing to excuse another.

I'm all for it, but we'd 1st have to convince anet that that is a problem. As it stands they deem it something necessary to get people to try other game modes, and you can't exactly say it isn't working.

That is the goal we're trying to achieve here.

Also, I reject the "get people to try something" argument. I think there is certainly a role for that, but it needs to be something that can be accomplished by any player in a relatively short amount of time. Just enough time to say that they tried that thing. Having to spend hundreds of hours is not "trying" something, that is a serious commitment. Any goal that takes hundreds of hours to achieve should have alternate paths, to improve the odds that at least one of those paths will be enjoyable.

@zealex.9410 said:

Why is that?

Because thats the raid set. A set directly tied to this type of content. Any diff content should have diff diff skin.

Why? Dungeon armor can be found in PvP. Why must Envoy armor be absolutely exclusive to raids?

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

But your ok with people paying to get Legendary Armor? Where is the effort there? Me whipping out my credit card?

Im not particularly happy about it but thats 1 in every 100 due ti the insane cost that it has. Its alot of gold wasted and ppl know that.

Also theres achievement selling since forever fir things ppl find to hard, whats wrong with that?

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort.

Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same.

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I used to play Everquest back in 1999 and I still remember doing Raids in the Plane of Fear, where half of the classes had their best armor sets as random drops on certain mobs. In that game, every mob was a raid boss. This still seems to be the same thinking that GW2 wants to achieve as of right now with Legendary Armor. I thought they want to revolutionize MMOs and not stick to the same old game.

Perhaps if they offered another way to obtain the envoy set or just obtain the skin for it.

A diff legendary armor in a diff part of pve(fractals preferably)? Sure, the same skin or just the skin Kitten no.

Why not? Why do you feel entitled to exclusive access to the skin?

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:same could be said about the pvp/wvw skins could it not?

Those need to be fixed too, one problem does nothing to excuse another.

I'm all for it, but we'd 1st have to convince anet that that is a problem. As it stands they deem it something necessary to get people to try other game modes, and you can't exactly say it isn't working.

That is the goal we're trying to achieve here.

Also, I reject the "get people to try something" argument. I think there is certainly a role for that, but it needs to be something that can be accomplished by

any

player in a relatively short amount of time. Just enough time to say that they tried that thing. Having to spend hundreds of hours is not "trying" something, that is a serious commitment. Any goal that takes hundreds of hours to achieve should have alternate paths, to improve the odds that at least one of those paths will be enjoyable.

@zealex.9410 said:

Why is that?

Because thats the raid set. A set directly tied to this type of content. Any diff content should have diff diff skin.

Why? Dungeon armor can be found in PvP. Why must Envoy armor be absolutely exclusive to raids?

Adding dungeon armor to pvp was a bad idea in the first place. 2 wrongs dont make 1 right.

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I used to play Everquest back in 1999 and I still remember doing Raids in the Plane of Fear, where half of the classes had their best armor sets as random drops on certain mobs. In that game, every mob was a raid boss. This still seems to be the same thinking that GW2 wants to achieve as of right now with Legendary Armor. I thought they want to revolutionize MMOs and not stick to the same old game.

Perhaps if they offered another way to obtain the envoy set or just obtain the skin for it.

A diff legendary armor in a diff part of pve(fractals preferably)? Sure, the same skin or just the skin Kitten no.

Why not? Why do you feel entitled to exclusive access to the skin?

Why do you feel entitled to all skins?

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:same could be said about the pvp/wvw skins could it not?

Those need to be fixed too, one problem does nothing to excuse another.

I'm all for it, but we'd 1st have to convince anet that that is a problem. As it stands they deem it something necessary to get people to try other game modes, and you can't exactly say it isn't working.

That is the goal we're trying to achieve here.

Also, I reject the "get people to try something" argument. I think there is certainly a role for that, but it needs to be something that can be accomplished by

any

player in a relatively short amount of time. Just enough time to say that they tried that thing. Having to spend hundreds of hours is not "trying" something, that is a serious commitment. Any goal that takes hundreds of hours to achieve should have alternate paths, to improve the odds that at least one of those paths will be enjoyable.

@zealex.9410 said:

Why is that?

Because thats the raid set. A set directly tied to this type of content. Any diff content should have diff diff skin.

Why? Dungeon armor can be found in PvP. Why must Envoy armor be absolutely exclusive to raids?

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous.

Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat.

Afking will get you reported.

I can run around and kitten around on node without being useful.

[zealex.9410]

@Tyson.5160 said:I’m just surprised that no one is up in arms about raid selling.

Why? Its another way for ppl to make some gold in the game. Wether its jps, fractals, story achievements or raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

@zealex.9410 said:Adding dungeon armor to pvp was a bad idea in the first place.

Why? It allows players who don't want to run dungeons an alternate way to earn those skins. How could that possibly be a bad thing? Would you rather they had to play content that they did not enjoy? Do you genuinely want a game in which players are not enjoying themselves?

@zealex.9410 said:Why do you feel entitled to all skins?

Not "entitled," I just don't see the benefit in players not having positive access to the skins that appeal to them. If a player likes how a give skin works, they should have a fun method of obtaining that skin because there's no reason not to.

[Tyson.5160]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

You concede by default it's ok.

I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to

systems,

like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster.

I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version.

Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue.

You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to

not

play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who

aren't

like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders.

Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster.

It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well.

It also takes 10 times less effort.

What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor?

Losing your way to the pvp legendary.

But your ok with people paying to get Legendary Armor? Where is the effort there? Me whipping out my credit card?

Im not particularly happy about it but thats 1 in every 100 due ti the insane cost that it has. Its alot of gold wasted and ppl know that.

Also theres achievement selling since forever fir things ppl find to hard, whats wrong with that?

It’s still zero effort. I can save up a bunch of gold then buy all the raid bosses and also not spend a dime as an alternate route. The argument of effort for the armor is somewhat ridiculous, I’m alright with a time investment. Either through reduced LI through an easy mode or saving up all my gold, what’s the difference, I’m still cheating the effort portion.