Why The Berserker Changes Are Overdoing It

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

I vehemently disagree. It is an absolute REQUIREMENT that they consider the degree to which skill differential affects the potency of certain builds and trait choices and try to the best of their ability to offer build and trait options that hit an intended range between skill floor and skill ceiling and that offer an appropriate learning curve for players to move through that skill range.

For example, it's kinda strange that only 1.5 years after EoD release they are realizing that empowered empowerment on catalyst is designed poorly with a ludicrously all-or-nothing skill check. And even this new version is still pretty silly and unimaginative. There could be something actually cool that changes the way catalyst does dmg in that slot, but instead it's just a flat stat enhancement and STILL an all-or-nothing skill check to jump from its skill floor to it's skill ceiling, just a smaller disparity between the all and the nothing now.

I have zero clue why they like it being this way.

You can disagree if you like but it's not an opinion. It's just how it works. Not only that, but there are good reasons for why it works that way. And no, it's not an absolute requirement, just because it's something you want or think it should have. That makes NO sense. 

Again, if you don't see the appeal/reason/importance of skills/choices/actions/etc ...  that differentiate the good from bad players,  then it's not Anet's job to change the game for you.  It's up to you to choose games that are more appropriate to the way you want to experience a game.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

*stumbles backward into furniture*

Obtena going to bat for positive war changes? What timeline am I in?

[mandala.8507]

32 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, if you don't see the appeal/reason/importance of skills/choices/actions/etc ...  that differentiate the good from bad players,  then it's not Anet's job to change the game for you.  It's up to you to choose games that are more appropriate to the way you want to experience a game.

I have no clue who you are arguing with right now, but it's not me. I haven't made any points that would even remotely insinuate the things you are saying with these responses. You're fighting with someone in a different universe or something, idk.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

53 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*stumbles backward into furniture*

Obtena going to bat for positive war changes? What timeline am I in?

The same timeline. Obtena always sides with Anet.

[mandala.8507]

19 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The same timeline. Obtena always sides with Anet.

I don't understand how denying the fact that this build will release giga-broken and setting Anet up to get flamed for not knowing what they're doing is siding with Anet. I'm the one siding with Anet by letting them know this needs more work.

[mandala.8507]

Since people are confused by the fact I'm not a benchmark player, I'm gonna share some math to explain why the bench is going to be so high.

Like I mentioned, the only change you have to make now to the full dps build to generate permanent quickness uptime is the trait change from blood reaction to heat the soul. This loses you 20% of your precision converted to ferocity. That's it.

The current benchmark power berserker build does 43.245k dps with 2050 precision and 1846 ferocity with blood reaction traited. With berserk mode engaged, this bonus from the trait is doubled, landing the ferocity at ~2051 with 286.7% crit damage. Without blood reaction, the build would instead have about 1641 ferocity for a crit damage of ~259.3%.

Because it's a power build, we can establish a ratio between the difference in crit multiplier to find the dmg output for this bench with the trait change to heat the soul (I'm pretty sure. Please correct me if I skipped an important middle step, I actually don't know the order of operations for modifiers and such on crit dmg, but I'm pretty sure it's close enough, even if it's not perfectly how the math works).

This change, thus, would take the dmg of this pull from 43.245k dps to 39.122k dps.

This is while giving more than 100% boon uptime on quickness. And in the hands of a benchmark player, it's a LOT more than 100%.

Add onto this knowledge the fact that the build will be almost impossible to drop out of berserk uptime for, and will thus enable players to drop outrage and replace it with something that actually adds dmg (like charge, for instance) and stop using headbutt during the rotation, and you could have a quickness dps build that vastly overcaps on quickness uptime and does 40k power dps on the tankiest base class in the game.

This is unquestionably too high for a dps boon support, regardless of the amount of supplemental supporting boons it provides, unless we're just fully on the power creeping the game to oblivion train.

If someone has better math to explain why I'm not absolutely correct here, I welcome their informed input. But if we're just gonna say, "I don't think it will be that bad", then I have to disagree.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Since people are confused by the fact I'm not a benchmark player, I'm gonna share some math to explain why the bench is going to be so high.

Like I mentioned, the only change you have to make now to the full dps build to generate permanent quickness uptime is the trait change from blood reaction to heat the soul. This loses you 20% of your precision converted to ferocity. That's it.

The current benchmark power berserker build does 43.245k dps with 2050 precision and 1846 ferocity with blood reaction traited. With berserk mode engaged, this bonus from the trait is doubled, landing the ferocity at ~2051 with 286.7% crit damage. Without blood reaction, the build would instead have about 1641 ferocity for a crit damage of ~259.3%.

Because it's a power build, we can establish a ratio between the difference in crit multiplier to find the dmg output for this bench with the trait change to heat the soul (I'm pretty sure. Please correct me if I skipped an important middle step, I actually don't know the order of operations for modifiers and such on crit dmg, but I'm pretty sure it's close enough, even if it's not perfectly how the math works).

This change, thus, would take the dmg of this pull from 43.245k dps to 39.122k dps.

This is while giving more than 100% boon uptime on quickness. And in the hands of a benchmark player, it's a LOT more than 100%.

Add onto this knowledge the fact that the build will be almost impossible to drop out of berserk uptime for, and will thus enable players to drop outrage and replace it with something that actually adds dmg (like charge, for instance) and stop using headbutt during the rotation, and you could have a quickness dps build that vastly overcaps on quickness uptime and does 40k power dps on the tankiest base class in the game.

This is unquestionably too high for a dps boon support, regardless of the amount of supplemental supporting boons it provides, unless we're just fully on the power creeping the game to oblivion train.

If someone has better math to explain why I'm not absolutely correct here, I welcome their informed input. But if we're just gonna say, "I don't think it will be that bad", then I have to disagree.

The issue with the thread isn't if you are correct in the math or you aren't; I really don't care about that part. The issue is that you concluded that your calculation is a compelling reason for Anet to change something. Maybe if the game was played like a spreadsheet, your approach would be relevant.

A build like you describe that only becomes a problem based on actual adoption and use in game. IF that happens, we know there is a process to address it. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The problem isn't if you are correct in the math or you aren't. The fact that such a build gets released isn't actually a problem. It only becomes a problem if  the results people get from using the build and how many people are actually adopting the build in the first place makes it one. If that happens, we know there is a process to address that. 

Call me a fortuneteller if you want, but if there's a quickness dps build doing 40k dps, people are going to pick it up and abuse it on any content it is even remotely decent on. We don't have to wait to find out. The numbers guarantee it will be a problem.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Call me a fortuneteller if you want, but if there's a quickness dps build doing 40k dps, people are going to pick it up and abuse it on any content it is even remotely decent on. We don't have to wait to find out. The numbers guarantee it will be a problem.

That's not a problem ... people 'abusing' good builds isn't a reason to nerf them because the WHOLE GAME for top performance players is about 'abusing' those good builds in the first place. 

Again, the problem is when EVERYONE takes that build and gets the claimed results because the problem isn't JUST about performance, it's about maintaining choice for players within the defined roles. We won't know that until it's actually in game. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, the problem is when EVERYONE takes that build and gets the claimed results. We won't know that until it's actually in game. 

I do know that, though. Everyone will take the build because it will be doing 10%+ more dmg than any other quickness dps build without having to think about how to keep up boons at all. You just have to focus on blasting.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

Everyone will take the build ...

We shall see and I have no doubt isn't going to pre-emptively nerf that build because your calculations predict that to be true. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

We shall see. 

I pray we don't. They released the patch notes with plenty of time to fix it.

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I pray we don't. They released the patch notes with plenty of time to fix it.

This is the difference .. somehow you concluded it's a problem if it does, which I don't get. Like SOMEHOW this particular build, as a performance outlier, will fly under Anet's radar and not be dealt with like all the other builds that have been released with the same extreme performance behaviour ... and do what? Ruin the game?

But sure, ignore the last 2 years of changes we have seen to bring specific builds in their roles inline in performance via Anet's process ... and convince Anet your math is more relevant than ANY in game result they use to verify it's actually an outlier. Let's see how that goes. 

Not only do I feel the fact you are asking for a pre-nerf based on performance is premature, I think the changes address a very significant problem I've had with berserker for a long time. In Anet's own words. 

Berserker's improvements will make it slightly easier to maintain berserk mode in PvE encounters, and a lower cooldown will make it a bit less punishing to fall out of berserk mode

Performance in berserker mode can always be tuned so it's not that big a deal regardless of how it's justified, but that non-berserker mode performance has always been an issue and it's about time Anet recognized it and fixed it. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

This is the difference .. somehow you concluded it's a problem if it does, which I don't get. Like SOMEHOW this particular build, as a performance outlier, will fly under Anet's radar and not be dealt with like all the other builds that have been released with the same behaviour ... and do what? Ruin the game?

But sure, ignore the last 2 years of changes we have seen to bring specific builds in their roles inline in performance and convince Anet your math is more relevant than ANY in game result they use to verify it's actually an outlier. Let's see how that goes. 

There's almost no chance someone who actually plays power berserker tested these changes to heat the soul and smash brawler at the same time. I could believe they were changes developed and put forward separately, but that's probably as charitable as I can get.

Outliers of this caliber come with community toxicity, unfortunately, so that's why you'd want to catch it before it's in the game rather than after. Also, outlier builds on the top end tend to get overnerfed to show the community "we hear you", or whatever, so that's what I'd prefer for them to avoid as someone who would like to play their warrior more in end-game content at some point in the future.

The question really should be, why do you care that I'm offering feedback like this? They clearly want it if they are talking about the changes a month in advance. What's the benefit of letting this all unfold unnecessarily?

I'm not sharing my sentiments and insights to prevent them from "ruining the game". One overtuned build doesn't ruin the game. I'm sharing because I'm trying to engage in the ways they want me to when they share these patch notes early like this. They're free to act on this information however they see fit, and they're also free to totally ignore it. 

[Obtena.7952]

25 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

There's almost no chance someone who actually plays power berserker tested these changes to heat the soul and smash brawler at the same time. I could believe they were changes developed and put forward separately, but that's probably as charitable as I can get.

Outliers of this caliber come with community toxicity, unfortunately, so that's why you'd want to catch it before it's in the game rather than after. Also, outlier builds on the top end tend to get overnerfed to show the community "we hear you", or whatever, so that's what I'd prefer for them to avoid as someone who would like to play their warrior more in end-game content at some point in the future.

The question really should be, why do you care that I'm offering feedback like this? They clearly want it if they are talking about the changes a month in advance. What's the benefit of letting this all unfold unnecessarily?

I'm not sharing my sentiments and insights to prevent them from "ruining the game". One overtuned build doesn't ruin the game. I'm sharing because I'm trying to engage in the ways they want me to when they share these patch notes early like this. They're free to act on this information however they see fit, and they're also free to totally ignore it. 

Don't mistake my responses to you as some kind of dissuasion from giving feedback. Give whatever feedback you like. Like you, I'm giving feedback that the approach being taken here to pre-emptively nerf the proposed changes based on a calculation are questionably relevant to how the game works in the first place. 

What is fun about this thread is when I take my time machine back 9 years to when people were calculating DPS outputs before we had ARCPDS, claiming necro was the worst and resulting in people outright refusing to team necros. Man, were THOSE people wrong. 

TLDR why do I care? because the kind of feedback you are giving here is inaccurate to how the actually game works. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[WeshGros.9043]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

I do know that, though. Everyone will take the build because it will be doing 10%+ more dmg than any other quickness dps build without having to think about how to keep up boons at all. You just have to focus on blasting.

Having 10% dmg difference is way less important than having access to reliable aegis/stab. Because that 10% for the 1 qberserker player is gonna quickly turn into minus 10% dps, if not more, for your sub.

Also the scenario where you can hit a boss 100% of the time is getting pretty rare.

Edited October 30, 2023 by WeshGros.9043

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't mistake my responses to you as some kind of dissuasion from giving feedback. Give whatever feedback you like. Like you, I'm giving feedback that the approach being taken here to pre-emptively nerf the proposed changes based on a calculation are questionably relevant to how the game works in the first place. 

And that's why you're incorrect. Because I used math AND tested it in game to see, "hey, would I be able to do this when this comes out next patch?", and the answer was, "yes, and it will be too strong".

The math doesn't lie. NOTHING ABOUT THE BUILD CHANGES MECHANICALLY WITH THESE CHANGES. 

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, WeshGros.9043 said:

Having 10% dmg difference is way less important than having access to reliable aegis/stab. Because that 10% for the 1 qberserker player is gonna quickly turn into minus 10% dps, if not more, for your sub.

Please bro, don't make me tell you that you can drop the signet to use banners reactively and lose less than 10% dps. Please, my guy. Don't make me have to tell you that.

[Obtena.7952]

59 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

And that's why you're incorrect. Because I used math AND tested it in game to see, "hey, would I be able to do this when this comes out next patch?", and the answer was, "yes, and it will be too strong".

The math doesn't lie. NOTHING ABOUT THE BUILD CHANGES MECHANICALLY WITH THESE CHANGES. 

Again ... goes to relevance. You bashed a golem ... good for you. Maybe for YOU the game is about hitting a golem. I'm pretty certain most people do more than that. 

Again, what is relevant here isn't how well QBerserker hits a golem. It's how it is considered for use by players INGAME against its peers. That simply is NOT measured by hitting a golem. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Arewn.2368]

15 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@mandala.8507 I am gotta say. The new Warrior quickness build might gonna be around 36-38k bench. But question it yourself.... is a build that only provite quickness to your group with a 5k lower Bench than its DPS only Version realy OP? 

There are Builds that are Sharing tons of other boons to their group aside quickness and alac. They normaly doin around 30k bench. But also they Sharing around 4-6 boons permanently. So a Warrior share quickness only though a group with this Bench is not rly OP.

It's still not a good thing for the game over all. If another build can pair with a quickness-only Zerker to fill in the missing boons, it's going to destabilize group compositions (again).

When it comes to group composition and related balance decisions, Arena Net has shown themselves to have terrible vision and control over the direction of their game. They tend to get led by the nose by whatever the players-base does, leading to an incoherent mess of a meta. So it wouldn't surprise me if we once again find ourselves in that situation.

If this "golden combination" is discovered, we'll probably end up with a really awkward group comp centered around an over-performing quickZerker paired with some other build that brings the missing boons while also fulfilling it's primary role. This will last for 6 or 8 months, people will get sick of it, and ultimately ANet will nerf quickZerker into the ground and leave it dead in the water for a couple years.

[WeshGros.9043]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

Please bro, don't make me tell you that you can drop the signet to use banners reactively and lose less than 10% dps. Please, my guy. Don't make me have to tell you that.

So it looks like we're getting close to other qdps then, almost sigil level of difference. What's your point again ?

[mandala.8507]

17 minutes ago, WeshGros.9043 said:

So it looks like we're getting close to other qdps then, almost sigil level of difference. What's your point again ?

That we could run both banner of defense and banner of tactics at the same time and still probably annihilate every other qdps build on the meter. It's not close. I'm making the exact opposite point, which is that it isn't even remotely close to other qdps. And it isn't overoptimized on boon duration like some of those other qdps builds are, so the number we hit on the golem is more real for this build than it is for some of the others. It isn't a smoke and mirrors show with barely achievable quickness uptime. The quickness uptime is beyond free for this version of heat the soul if it makes it to live.

Edited October 30, 2023 by mandala.8507

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

That we could run both banner of defense and banner of tactics at the same time and still probably annihilate every other qdps build on the meter. It's not close. I'm making the exact opposite point, which is that it isn't even remotely close to other qdps. And it isn't overoptimized on boon duration like some of those other qdps builds are, so the number we hit on the golem is more real for this build than it is for some of the others. It isn't a smoke and mirrors show with barely achievable quickness uptime. The quickness uptime is beyond free for this version of heat the soul if it makes it to live.

But it will still need BD for the other boons that it brings. I think in the end it will end up still within the qdps band, but on the upper end rather than the lower end.

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

But it will still need BD for the other boons that it brings. I think in the end it will end up still within the qdps band, but on the upper end rather than the lower end.

What other things? What other things are we expected to bring?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

What other things? What other things are we expected to bring?

You yourself mentioned Banner of Defense and Banner of Tactics. Even For Great Justice for might and fury. If you're going full on support warhorn brings swiftness and vigor along, as well as more quickness. Tactics will bring along more stability and protection. Its a matter of how much of a support are you going for.