Why The Berserker Changes Are Overdoing It

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

So you skipped the one I shared with a real encounter, or are you just not there in the thread yet?

Any video you want to find doesn't change the fact that the thing that matters here (players choices ingame) isn't something you can capture in a video or determine from 'math' in the first place. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Myror.7521]

Just let us get something good for idk one Patch? Its not like warr is the most Played class (cause you know you need to melee). Also all it now does is melee dps. Just let us share our one boon and we are happy lol.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:58 AM, mandala.8507 said:

Because I actually play warrior and so don't suffer from the notion that this won't work on a real boss.

But because it's a free win, here you go:

And here's the log: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/myKI-20231101-222032_cairn

So over a 56 second fight we get:

• 10 Arc Divider
• 4 Wild Blow
• 20 Decap
• 3 Blood Reckoning

Total Berserk extension over 56 seconds = 62 seconds (and this is excluding the headbutts and outrages because I wouldn't actual use them in the rotation after the patch on 95% of encounters).

Total quickness generated by the new version of heat the soul = 70 seconds for a 56 second fight. 125% quickness uptime with zero boon duration. Lovely.

Surely this won't be broken. Surely this won't be a huge buff to power berserker. Surely. You guys are right and I'm wrong. Surely.

So, you going to post your own work on warrior or just something that a top 1% of players can do on a boss that isn't a power fight yet they're running power because they're killing it faster than it can get to mechanics that'll take it out of warriors range?

 

Edit: You know they're fast when it's half as long as Mukluk's get to the point.

https://youtu.be/zPfLE1wwWkw?si=B57V63DRBMuT8VTH

Edited November 3, 2023 by Red Haired Savage.5430

[mandala.8507]

I can't with y'all in this thread. I'm letting Eparch eat me on Tuesday. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by mandala.8507

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I can't with y'all in this thread. I'm letting Eparch eat me on Tuesday. 

Tell you what, if it turns out that what is essentially perm quickness gen on zerker for landing bursts causes the class to get crippling nerfs when/if the devs decide they don't want us to do that, I will apologize for not believing you.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I can't with y'all in this thread. I'm letting Eparch eat me on Tuesday. 

Kinky.

[Katary.7096]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:37 PM, mandala.8507 said:

So you skipped the one I shared with a real encounter, or are you just not there in the thread yet?

Apart from strafing left and right to avoid AoEs the Cairn kill gameplay is pretty much the golem benchmark. If you wish to demonstrate that the limitations of Berserker do not make a meaningful difference between the golem benchmark and a "real boss fight" then you need to provide a better example.

[Kitty.4806]

I disagree that it's over-doing it. This is necessary. I play end game content such as raids regularly, and when we start most bosses, I have one of the 3 highest dps in our group. As soon as there's a phase, some other mechanic, or I fall out of berserk mode, my damage goes down to mid-tier in the group for pretty much the rest of the fight.

MEANWHILE, virtuosos are like berserker's without a timer. Simple solution: Make berserk mode basically permanent.

It'll also help us not require 4 of our utility slots to be the same berserk-extending skills every. darn. fight.

I welcome this change completely, and it's a STEP in the right direction for giving warrior what it's always deserved.

 

P.S. update greatsword please Anet ❤️

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:22 AM, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

So, you going to post your own work on warrior or just something that a top 1% of players can do on a boss that isn't a power fight yet they're running power because they're killing it faster than it can get to mechanics that'll take it out of warriors range?

 

Edit: You know they're fast when it's half as long as Mukluk's get to the point.

https://youtu.be/zPfLE1wwWkw?si=B57V63DRBMuT8VTH

Cairn? OP, you DO realize that's still a stationary target right? It's basically another golem. You basically reaffirmed the opposite argument.

So yes. Not broken.

Try this on a MOVING target. I g-u-a-r-a-n-t-e-e you will exit berzerk mode at some point. Again, why is that? Because warrior has to stick to melee range.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

2 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Cairn? OP, you DO realize that's still a stationary target right? It's basically another golem. You basically reaffirmed the opposite argument.

So yes. Not broken.

Try this on a MOVING target. I g-u-a-r-a-n-t-e-e you will exit berzerk mode at some point. Again, why is that? Because warrior has to stick to melee range.

Have you fought Cairn with pugs?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm reviving this thread because I want problems, always.

[WingSwipe.3084]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:04 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm reviving this thread because I want problems, always.

Based and hammer-pilled.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:04 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm reviving this thread because I want problems, always.

You want drama bro? I got ya!

The popularity of berserker in raids has DOUBLED! (almost) 

From 1.98% to 3.72%. INSANE BUFF RIGHT THERE!!!!! NERF NOW! 

Strike? OHHH BOY!!!!!!!! 

From 2.09% to 3.59%.

HOW CAN WE HANDLE THESE NUMBERS!!!!!???????? 

Clearly over buffed. 

OP was right all along. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[firedragon.8953]

In my view, when it comes to beserker, Anet has 2 design philosophies they can choose.

1) Berserkers must be berserk to be competitive and thus beserk needs to be up near 100% (current situation with burst extension).
2) Core warrior has to be buffed to be competitive and beserk is a short window of insane burst damage and is nowhere near perma-zerk.

Anet went for philosophy 2 for a while. This made a lot of sense when warrior played banners (when they gave unique buffs) since carrying and dropping banners inherently was a tradeoff with beserker uptime. But, as we all know, banners were nerfed hard (even completely trashed for a while). As most warrior players also know, most warrior utilities are bad (to the point where most meta builds use passive signet utilities because it's "better" than rofl Kick (or any physical skills tbh). To follow through with philosophy 2, arenanet would have to spend a lot of time refreshing warrior weapon and utility skills.

The easier solution (which is now being doubled-down on with heal warrior design) is philosophy 1. If Beserker maintains nearly 100% beserk uptime, they are competitive even with broken utilities because they can just slap on some signets and a single burst extension skill for the passive stat boosts for maximum dps.

Even if power Beserker was over powered dps-wise (it isn't because it is 99% melee which real fights never favor due to split phases), that's its only real benefit since the utility it brings is worse than almost every other profession. Melee should always do more damaged than range when in melee and should constantly hit the golem much harder than ranged weapon professions. You got classes like scourge that can do nonstop ticking dps from range during splits that far surpasses berserker (at least at comparable player skill level), allows your group to basically become undead while providing alac with its heal spec and also brings waves of boon corruption and cleanses, high amounts of CC, etc. etc.

Personally, I think philosophy 2 is much more fun and embodies the the soul of a bursty berserker, but it is also a lot harder (will require much more time) for the devs to actually roll out and hopefully get it right. Although berserker has burst skills and that is their whole profession mechanic, the only warrior profession that "bursts" is ironically bladesworn. But considering the situation power berserker has been in for about the past year, I am completely fine with the current philosophy as it makes me at least want to play the spec again.

Edited December 7, 2023 by firedragon.8953

[Jzaku.9765]

53 minutes ago, firedragon.8953 said:

In my view, when it comes to beserker, Anet has 2 design philosophies they can choose.

1) Berserkers must be berserk to be competitive and thus beserk needs to be up near 100% (current situation with burst extension).
2) Core warrior has to be buffed to be competitive and beserk is a short window of insane burst damage and is nowhere near perma-zerk.

Anet went for philosophy 2 for a while. This made a lot of sense when warrior played banners (when they gave unique buffs) since carrying and dropping banners inherently was a tradeoff with beserker uptime. But, as we all know, banners were nerfed hard (even completely trashed for a while). As most warrior players also know, most warrior utilities are bad (to the point where most meta builds use passive signet utilities because it's "better" than rofl Kick (or any physical skills tbh). To follow through with philosophy 2, arenanet would have to spend a lot of time refreshing warrior weapon and utility skills.

The easier solution (which is now being doubled-down on with heal warrior design) is philosophy 1. If Beserker maintains nearly 100% beserk uptime, they are competitive even with broken utilities because they can just slap on some signets and a single burst extension skill for the passive stat boosts for maximum dps.

Even if power Beserker was over powered dps-wise (it isn't because it is 99% melee which real fights never favor due to split phases), that's its only real benefit since the utility it brings is worse than almost every other profession. Melee should always do more damaged than range when in melee and should constantly hit the golem much harder than ranged weapon professions. You got classes like scourge that can do nonstop ticking dps from range during splits that far surpasses berserker (at least at comparable player skill level), allows your group to basically become undead while providing alac with its heal spec and also brings waves of boon corruption and cleanses, high amounts of CC, etc. etc.

Personally, I think philosophy 2 is much more fun and embodies the the soul of a bursty berserker, but it is also a lot harder (will require much more time) for the devs to actually roll out and hopefully get it right. Although berserker has burst skills and that is their whole profession mechanic, the only warrior profession that "bursts" is ironically bladesworn. But considering the situation power berserker has been in for about the past year, I am completely fine with the current philosophy as it makes me at least want to play the spec again.

I think you are close but miss the mark on why anet went with 1) in the end. It's far more likely to be because there are multiple fights in the game where you could essentially be in Berserk mode 100% of the time the boss is available to burn - this was commonly felt all throughout Banner Warrior's life cycle. It's way easier to balance around Berserker being in perma Berserk.

And second, I implore you to reconsider your opinion on Warrior utility skills. The way I see it, it is nothing but an absolute positive that Warrior has """"bad"""" DPS utilities, leaving you to just slot Signets for lack of something better. The less DPS your utility skills represent, the less of an opportunity cost you are paying to bring something with actual utility. Warrior's actual issue is having utility skills "with actual utility". The alternative is a class like Ele which has nothing but big DPS utility skills representing an upwards of 7k+ DPS, or Bladesworn which has unbelievably painful opportunity cost for dropping anything on the utility bar. 

 

As for the actual thread topic, qDPS Warrior has shaken out to be exactly as I predicted. It's approximately doubled Berserker's playrate as it's now able to fill a key boon dps role it couldn't before, but is still too high APM and offers little in terms of utility for it to, as OP put it, overtake the meta. I can totally understand them nerfing the DPS as DPS Zerk should be much higher than qZerk, but ideally keep it above qHerald in DPS, as a build that offers much less to the team.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Jzaku.9765

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You want drama bro? I got ya!

The popularity of berserker in raids has DOUBLED! (almost) 

From 1.98% to 3.72%. INSANE BUFF RIGHT THERE!!!!! NERF NOW! 

Strike? OHHH BOY!!!!!!!! 

From 2.09% to 3.59%.

People having enough interest to pick up the class when it's finally handed buffs that play to its archetype brings me great joy.

Now, just do it for pvp...

Edited December 7, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

People having enough interest to pick up the class when it's finally handed buffs that play to its archetype brings me great joy.

Now, just do it for pvp...

Decapitate should finish Downs. Change my mind.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Decapitate should finish Downs. Change my mind.

I like the idea, but I don't really want a rerun of hammer complaints, where the only people affected by it are the people that would have died anyway but boy do they have something to say on Reddit, while everyone else that knows how to press buttons just continues deleting axe zerker as normal. 

I want better tools for getting the fight done, not cleanup. I can do cleanup already. Also what if I want to bleed someone off point but need to hit them a couple times to get my Adrenal health stacked?

Edited December 7, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I like the idea, but I don't really want a rerun of hammer complaints, where the only people affected by it are the people that would have died anyway but boy do they have something to say on Reddit, while everyone else that knows how to press buttons just continues deleting axe zerker as normal. 

I want better tools for getting the fight done, not cleanup. I can do cleanup already. Also what if I want to bleed someone off point but need to hit them a couple times to get my Adrenal health stacked?

1) I was joking

2) You changed my mind 🤣

[mandala.8507]

On 12/5/2023 at 2:04 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm reviving this thread because I want problems, always.

To say what? That I was right?

Yeah, the community didn't pick up the build bc it still has the prerequisite of being able to handle relatively high-APM gameplay, but it is objectively broken.

Here's me racing for top dps as the boon support with a comfier and lower dps version of this build doing quickness on the most recent endgame instanced content release, Temple of Febe: https://dps.report/UD8y-20231227-133327_cerus

And note that I'm playing quite poorly in this log.

This fight has downtime, spread mechanics, cc breaks, requires movement, and the boss moves (technically), but this build still crushed this encounter.

Is this balanced, in my opinion? No.

Anyone claiming to main warrior in PvE should be well aware by now that this build is overtuned. It's just flying under the radar for whatever reason.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

To say what? That I was right?

Yeah, the community didn't pick up the build bc it still has the prerequisite of being able to handle relatively high-APM gameplay, but it is objectively broken.

Here's me racing for top dps as the boon support with a comfier and lower dps version of this build doing quickness on the most recent endgame instanced content release, Temple of Febe: https://dps.report/UD8y-20231227-133327_cerus

And note that I'm playing quite poorly in this log.

This fight has downtime, spread mechanics, cc breaks, requires movement, and the boss moves (technically), but this build still crushed this encounter.

Is this balanced, in my opinion? No.

Anyone claiming to main warrior in PvE should be well aware by now that this build is overtuned. It's just flying under the radar for whatever reason.

Man. You still memeing on us huh? Good lord you are persistent. I give you that.

But lets see.

Power Berserker is Number 8 on the DpS Ladder. Good spot given that is only brings dps and nothing else.

Power Quickness is Number 33.  Biggest Dmg for a Quickness Provider, but again, it brings nothing else to the table so its fine.

Around a 3.6% use rate on Wingman. Looks pretty healthy to me.

From my perspective, Berserker is finaly is a decent spot overall.

Also, i didnt see any increase in Berserker or Warrior in general in Raids/Strike. Only overworld/meta squads sees alot more Berserkers.

Before the patch, seeing 2 Berserker in a squad was rare, now you see up to 5.

 

[mandala.8507]

27 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Power Quickness is Number 33.  Biggest Dmg for a Quickness Provider, but again, it brings nothing else to the table so its fine.

This is an opinion with which I don't agree and which has no foundation in how the game actually works.

Show me in the log the boon we didn't have because I was on this build instead of something like quick herald or quickbrand.

Explain logically why those builds doing 15% less dmg than this one are better on this fight. What am I gaining from doing 15% less dmg for no actual benefit?

[Sansar.1302]

Berserker is realy op in wvw too 😞 ( more than willbender and same as harbinger)

 And on top its a condi build that is op on berserker in wvw 😞

Yes Warrior needs another good build in wvw besides the annoying cc power build. ( witch is decent/good  but very annoying and unfunn to play vs )

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Sansar.1302
bad spelling

[Sansar.1302]

I belive a medium sustain, medium damage build with very high boon removal would be realy cool to see return to warrior.

That would make me dust of my warrior for WvW and Spvp again.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Sansar.1302
where not finished writing

[mandala.8507]

19 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Warrior

Power-based quickness berserker is the final overperforming build that we're tackling in this update, shifting a bit more of the power away from Bloody Roar and into Blood Reaction to create a larger damage tradeoff for the quickness build.

• Blood Reaction: Increased the precision to ferocity conversion from 10% to 12% in PvE only.
• Bloody Roar: Reduced the damage bonus from 20% to 15% in PvE only.

So yes, they also concluded it was a bit much and made an adjustment. We'll see where this lands the build. It will probably still be insanely strong, but will move from numerical outlier to simply one of the top candidates for strongest quickness dps build now.

Good stuff.